Existence...

sideshowbob said:
Clearly wrong. Say a volcano appears and then disappears? It had a beginning and an end and an existence in between.
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The primary logic is that creation itself can't create itself. Hence, it is eternal, always existed, will always exist. I call it the Singularity to highlight that one time only, for all time, "fact." There are no other existences, but all that is...
 
Hi-D said:
The primary logic is that creation itself can't create itself.
Click to expand...
Why do you think that? You claim it is "the primary logic" but it comes across as merely a proposition, assumed to be true. Can you provide evidence, a logical argument from acceptable propositions, perhaps, that "creation" can not create itself?
Hence, it is eternal, always existed, will always exist. I call it the Singularity to highlight that one time only, for all time, "fact." There are no other existences, but all that is...
Click to expand...
What is "creation" that it is eternal? Creation, at least the way I understand the term, is either an action, or "that which is created" - i.e. the result of the act. Are you saying the action is eternal, or that which is created is eternal?
Or perhaps you are saying something else?
 
Hi-D
Perhaps your founding logic can be explained using the following quote from a book written 100BC.
"But by observing Nature and her laws. And this will lay
The warp out for us—her first principle: that nothing's brought
Forth by any supernatural power out of naught.
For certainly all men are in the clutches of a dread—
Beholding many things take place in heaven overhead
Or here on earth whose causes they can't fathom, they assign
The explanation for these happenings to powers divine.
Nothing can be made from nothing—once we see that's so,
Already we are on the way to what we want to know"
~Lucretius, book: De rerum natura 100BC​
Where even if all of existence was divinely created one has to ask what created the creator and so on forcing the rational person to hold to the belief that the universe is and always has existed in some form. ( whether religious or not )
It is worth noting however that attributes like "logic" and "time" etc may not have existed eternally in forms we humans can comprehend.
 
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Hi-D said:
The primary logic is that creation itself can't create itself. Hence, it is eternal, always existed, will always exist.
Click to expand...

Hmm... Potentially saved by the fifth in terms of creation not necessarily entailing something that was created.

"I'll take the fifth, Your Honor."

creation (noun, kree'ey-shun):

(1) The human act of creating.

(2) An artifact that has been brought into existence by someone.

(3) The event that occurred at the beginning of something.

(4) The act of starting something for the first time; introducing something new.

(5) Everything that exists anywhere.

- - - - - -

creation [kree-ey-shuhn] noun

(1) the act of producing or causing to exist; the act of creating; engendering.

(2) the fact of being created.

(3) something that is or has been created.

(4) the Creation, the original bringing into existence of the universe by God.

(5) the world; universe.

(6) creatures collectively.​
 
DaveC426913 said:
If Creation were the first event, then what caused it? And why isn't that included in Creation?

This isn't theological argument; it is merely a philosophical argument about how the universe began.
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Creation has always existed. It never needed or even could have been otherwise.
Creation is "The Chicken."
 
Quantum Quack said:
Hi-D
Perhaps your founding logic can be explained using the following quote from a book written 100BC.
"But by observing Nature and her laws. And this will lay
The warp out for us—her first principle: that nothing's brought
Forth by any supernatural power out of naught.
For certainly all men are in the clutches of a dread—
Beholding many things take place in heaven overhead
Or here on earth whose causes they can't fathom, they assign
The explanation for these happenings to powers divine.
Nothing can be made from nothing—once we see that's so,
Already we are on the way to what we want to know"
~Lucretius, book: De rerum natura 100BC​
Where even if all of existence was divinely created one has to ask what created the creator and so on forcing the rational person to hold to the belief that the universe is and always has existed in some form. ( whether religious or not )
It is worth noting however that attributes like "logic" and "time" etc may not have existed eternally in forms we humans can comprehend.
Click to expand...
Existence never started, rather always was, hence never nothing, never non-existence.
 
Sarkus said:
Why do you think that? You claim it is "the primary logic" but it comes across as merely a proposition, assumed to be true. Can you provide evidence, a logical argument from acceptable propositions, perhaps, that "creation" can not create itself?
What is "creation" that it is eternal? Creation, at least the way I understand the term, is either an action, or "that which is created" - i.e. the result of the act. Are you saying the action is eternal, or that which is created is eternal?
Or perhaps you are saying something else?
Click to expand...
Eternal...exactly. Always and forever. No beginning or end. No nothing, no non-existence. No paradoxes either.

Creation is all, not only assigned one job.
 
DaveC426913 said:
If Creation were the first event, then what caused it? And why isn't that included in Creation?

This isn't theological argument; it is merely a philosophical argument about how the universe began.
Click to expand...
What is created cannot create itself from nothing. That idea defies logic. Logic is also defied by creation creating itself. So we are left with an immutable, eternal existence without paradoxes.
 
C C said:
Hmm... Potentially saved by the fifth in terms of creation not necessarily entailing something that was created.

"I'll take the fifth, Your Honor."

creation (noun, kree'ey-shun):

(1) The human act of creating.

(2) An artifact that has been brought into existence by someone.

(3) The event that occurred at the beginning of something.

(4) The act of starting something for the first time; introducing something new.

(5) Everything that exists anywhere.

- - - - - -

creation [kree-ey-shuhn] noun

(1) the act of producing or causing to exist; the act of creating; engendering.

(2) the fact of being created.

(3) something that is or has been created.

(4) the Creation, the original bringing into existence of the universe by God.

(5) the world; universe.

(6) creatures collectively.​
Click to expand...
(5) Everything that exists anywhere.

Now that I have my eye on "The Chicken", what has our chicken produced?
 
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