Evolution and Consciousness

Canute

Registered Senior Member
Consciousness and teleology are concepts that have been banished from Darwinian evolutionary theory. Yet we all know from experience that when we act we usually do so for a conscious purpose, and with a goal in mind.

My question is - how did the giraffe develop a long neck if it wasn't always consciously and purposefully trying to reach the leaves at the top of the tree, and thus found mutations that lengthened its neck useful, and an aid to survival.

The obvious answer that it was the chance mutation of a longer neck that led to the unintentional behaviour of eating leaves from higher up the tree does not seem to be based on any evidence.

In evolutionary/mutational terms if you don't use it you lose it. In other words a beneficial inherited mutation has no evolutionary effect unless it is used, and thus becomes useful, and the usefulness of a new characteristic depends on the purposes to which it is put. Thus without (teleological) purpose, end gaining if you like, most mutations can never become useful and will never become traits of the species.

One might also ask why the chicken crossed the road if it had no purpose, or why the first human to get up and walk on two legs bothered to do it.

This is a bit muddled but I hope you catch my drift.
 
hmm on second thought...maybe I shouldn't have mentioned plants and lower animals, because consiousness could still be a major driving factor in consious animals.
 
Yeah - that's part of what I mean. We can assume that they're not conscious - but this leaves us with some tricky explaining of behaviour to do.

One question I've never heard properly answered is why Darwinism (or neo-Darwinism) requires that consciousness (preferences, motives, subjective purpose etc) cannot be allowed as an evolutionary factor. It seems to be just a long-forgotten assumption and lazily maintained ad hoc orthodoxy not entailed by any evidence. Seems to me Darwin's ideas are not threatened by allowing conscious choice an evolutionary role.
 
It might be a major driving factor in for instance sexual selection.

maybe we are the naked ape, because at one point a group of women, or just one, made the consious decision that naked men are more attractive than hairy men. Or some men made that decision about women.

Maybe it was the leader of a group and the other members of the group made the conscious decision to follow his/her example.

I'm wondering if we could test this.
 
Quite likely I would say. But apparently not scientific. According to science human beings, like all other species, do not do things by conscious intention any more than a lump of granite does, albeit that they're more complex.
 
It's that belief that I'm trying to understand. Why do people believe it?

I heard a spokesman for an angling organisation lately say on TV that it's been scientifically proved that although fish have an array of sensors around their mouth they are not clever enough to feel pain. One wonders how it was proved, and how and why the sensors evolved.
 
You can not understand consciousness by looking at life or how species evolved. Consciousness is not part of the Darwinian paradigm because it can not be explained by natural selection. Many believe consciousness brought the universe into existence. This may seem totally absurd but please read the following quote from God Gametes (or any number of books on quantum physics) and judge for yourself.

From Chapter 1 of God Gametes which can be downloaded free from www.e-publishingaustralia.com

The following is a brief introduction to important issues relating to the sub-atomic world. For readers unfamiliar with properties of quantum particles, there is always something of a bridge that needs to be crossed. There is understandably a reluctance to accept ideas that appear to be irrational or to recognise concepts that shake the foundations on which we try to make sense of the world. Quantum physics presents us with many such issues.
The one we look at here is the fact that it is not possible to attribute a quantum particle with both position and momentum.
It is possible for example, to observe a particle at point A and observe the same particle some time later to find it has moved to point B. It is not possible however to observe how. What is totally incomprehensible is that the act of observing a particle’s momentum disrupts it in an indeterminate way and will destroy previously held information about position.8
There is a well-recognised property of quantum physics that forbids the observer from knowing both the position and momentum of particles. It is worth stressing here that it is not the physical properties of quantum particles that are the issue. No one knows whether they have both position and momentum but this is not the point. The point is that they are stopping us from finding out. If you find this difficult to accept then be comforted by the fact that so did Albert Einstein.
Einstein spent many years trying to explain the paradoxical nature of quantum particles. In 1935 he, along with colleagues Boris Podolsky and Nathan Rosen devised an experiment proposed to bypass what by that time was referred to as ‘quantum uncertainty’. The Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen experiment attempted to measure both the position and momentum of one particle by the use of an accomplice particle. What they suggested is best visualised by imagining two billiard balls. When ball one strikes ball two the momentum of ball two is determined by force exerted on it by ball one.
Einstein, Podolsky and Rosen then suggested experiments should be conducted applying this procedure to quantum particles. If particle one strikes particle two, it should be possible to calculate the momentum of particle ‘two’ from energy exerted on it by ‘one’. By measuring the position of particle two it was known that its momentum would be interrupted. This however would not matter because the momentum of particle two could be calculated by measurements taken from ‘one’. In this way it was hoped that both the position and momentum of ‘two’ would be known and the veil of quantum uncertainty, lifted.
There was much at stake for Einstein in this experiment. Firstly he believed in ‘objective reality’; that a particle must have both position and momentum even if far away and cannot be observed directly. His second problem was that particle ‘two’, in theory, could be light-years from particle ‘one’. If a measurement taken on particle ‘one’ would disrupt ‘two’, this would demonstrate faster-than-light signalling. Einstein’s theory of relativity claimed that nothing could travel faster-than-light and the issue could not be resolved in 1935 because the technology required for making such precise measurements had at that time, not been developed.
In the 1960s John Bell of the Centre for European Nuclear Research (CERN) found experiments could be carried out that discriminated between Einstein’s position and the opposing argument put by Niels Bohr. Bell found there were certain experimental predictions that could not be met if the Bohr arguments, supportive of quantum uncertainty, were correct.
The different theories were then encoded in a mathematical statement known as Bell’s Inequality. An experiment was now needed to prove or disprove the claim that separated quantum particles could communicate in an unconventional way. It would need to ensure there was not enough time for signals to pass between particles at the speed of light or less. The technology to do this was not yet available in the 1960s but in 1982 Alain Aspect conducted a series of experiments proving for the first time that quantum uncertainty cannot be bypassed.
In other words, Einstein was wrong and Niels Bohr was right.
These experiments are most famous for establishing beyond doubt that quantum particles do not have properties that can be defined by commonsense physics. More importantly for our model though, they have shown it is possible for two quantum particles to communicate with each other instantly, when theoretically, they could be light-years apart.

The scientific community now accepts the collapse of naïve reality and the experimental proof of instant and universal communication. It is unfortunate however that the significance of faster-than-light signalling is sometimes focused on the properties of quantum particles. This is at best misleading and at worst a completely incorrect interpretation of what happens. We need to remember that the interaction between particles one and two was only made possible by human observation. More importantly, the relationship between the quantum particles and the observation is one in which human consciousness is ‘dominant’ and the quantum particle ‘reactive’. The particles are reacting to human observation.
Bohr is reported to have said that anyone not astonished by quantum theory has not understood it. He argued that particles, in the absence of human observation, do not exist. Bohr claimed that the ‘experiment and observer’ are equally subject to quantum laws. His views and those of his followers came to be known as the ‘Copenhagen interpretation’.
While it is difficult to come to terms with these ideas some have gone even further. John Wheeler believes that an observer is needed to ‘bring the world into being’. This is called the ‘participatory’ view. A universe would only be ‘real’ if it had observers.

Note 8. Davies, Paul. Superforce, The Search for a Grand Unifying Theory of Nature. Penguin Books Ltd., 27 Wrights Lane, London W8 5TZ, England. 1995 p. 43.
 
Canute,

What is these the return of Lamarckism? Aside for predicted social and technological development Lamarck has no place in the natural world. Sorry Canute but there is a lot of evidence that the evolution work Darwinian over Lamarckian. The giraffe with a longer neck could get more food and it could also see predators better, all these increased its rate of survival, These giraffes had more children and there long neck genes flooded the gene pool until every giraffe had long necks and get longer through natural selection. If it was Lamarckian then how do insentient organisms do it? Also why could so many creatures die off when they could change them selves by sheer will? Why is it that new traits and genes do not evolve with the kind of precision that we would expect from Lamarckian evolution? Why is it that muscle builders don’t have beefed up children?

As of so far there is no mechanism (in earthling Biology) that allows the conscious change of genes. In the day and age of neo-eugenics and genetic engineering then we will be evolving Lamarckian, but this will be through unnatural means.

In societies if it is shown that one of the social members is very successful by either sheer luck or more likely good genetic traits then other social member want to breed with him/her and gain those genes into there own progeny. This is not really against Darwinian evolution: nature provided that change and the impulse to take advantage of it, no conscious will was needed.
 
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Robert...do you really have to have a major quote from your book in every single post? It is getting rather annoying.

I don't know if Canute's idea is anti-darwinian at all. It is certainly not Lamarckian.

I was thinking about the problem in the weekend and it popped into my mind that a major problem for accepting conscious drive in evolution could be that evolution comes too close. No longer can we pretend (as I often do) that we shouldn't really intervene with evolution, because it is unnatural. But if conscious decisions are really an intricate part of evolution than the entire eugenics/ social darwinism train of thought suddenly becomes part of the realm of the natural world. And that is quite a scary thought.
 
Originally posted by WellCookedFetus
Canute, What is these the return of Lamarckism?
I never suggested inheritance of acquired characteristics. No knee-jerk reaction splease.
 
Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
Robert...do you really have to have a major quote from your book in every single post? It is getting rather annoying.
Well said.
[I don't know if Canute's idea is anti-darwinian at all. It is certainly not Lamarckian.B]
Thanks - that's exactly right.
[I was thinking about the problem in the weekend and it popped into my mind that a major problem for accepting conscious drive in evolution could be that evolution comes too close. No longer can we pretend (as I often do) that we shouldn't really intervene with evolution, because it is unnatural. But if conscious decisions are really an intricate part of evolution than the entire eugenics/ social darwinism train of thought suddenly becomes part of the realm of the natural world. And that is quite a scary thought. [/B]
Yep. I suspect that its scariness is what stops us from thinking about it properly. The physical evidence doesn't seem to settle the matter.
 
I sorry this is not total classic Lamarckian but it is a Lamarckian like theory. The problems are universal in any consciously controlled theorem of evolution.

Yes, Robert please stop with the multi-page quotes! I am starting to think you might suffer from some kind of brain dysfunction in which you cannot rephrase what you have said before into shorter more intelligible parts for display on this forum.
 
Originally posted by WellCookedFetus
The problems are universal in any consciously controlled theorem of evolution.

Canute never suggested that evolution as such is conscious controled. There might be a form natural selection that is conscious based.

(if I understand your reply and canutes viewpoint correctly)
 
sorry mate...i didn't quite get that. I'm only human.

I thought I have been quite nice to you lately. (hence the bracket statement)
 
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