Ethical Behavior?

[ReighnStorm]

Do you think this arrest is justifiable?



"Thirty-four people drowned in a nursing home where they should have been evacuated."
Dr. Bryan Bertucci, a coroner, said he called all five nursing homes in the parish as the storm was threatening the city, and all but St. Rita's said they were evacuating their patients.
By Sunday at 2 p.m., when the danger was imminent and a mandatory evacuation order had been issued, he called back and spoke with Mrs. Mangano.
The Manganos had a spotless record for 20 years, and the home was well-regarded in the community, Cobb, their attorney, said.
Bertucci said the Manganos had provided good care before the storm, but he found fault with their decision not to evacuate. "I think they made a poor decision," he said.
"They were warned repeatedly that this storm was coming. In effect, their inaction resulted in the deaths of these people."
The Manganos, who face up to five years on each count, surrendered Tuesday to Medicaid Fraud Control Unit investigators in Baton Rouge and posted bail
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/09/13/katrina.nursinghome/index.html

 

[spuriousmonkey]

Not really unethical. We are taught that you have to be ruthless in this world to be succesful. You can't really blame people to try to emulate their role models.

 

[Baron Max]

I think the arrest is justifiable, but remember, that does NOT mean a conviction! They could still be proved innocent of the charges.

Baron Max

 

[Pi-Sudoku]

I doubt that they forbade their patients from leaving
They just chose not to force them to
It is neglegant
But should not bring criminal charges
The families of the patient are equaly at fault

 

[ReighnStorm]

"I told her I had two buses with two drivers that would take them wherever they want," Bertucci told CNN.

Workers at the nursing home called each family, Cobb said, to tell them they were prepared with supplies and medicine and were staying at the home. Only six people came to get family members, he said.
cnn.com

But the thing for me is that they called the family and assured them that things were ok. Also Bertucci says after he found that it was mandatory that the owners said that they would evacuate the patients themselves

 

[SpyMoose]

I think the arrest is justifiable, but remember, that does NOT mean a conviction! They could still be proved innocent of the charges.

Baron Max

Do you really think that Max? I would think that it would be more consistant with your views to point out that criminal negligence is just what you have to expect from people, and it was the old folks's own fault they died because they didn't spontaniously form some sort of militant revolt against the nursing home staff, steal some busses, and drive themselves out of the storm's way.

 

[Mystech]

Where did they eventually find the owners? I understand that they were missing, or at least authorities were unable to find them for a time, where did they ultimately show up? Did they blow out of town for the storm and leave some of their staff and the patients behind?

 

[Baron Max]

Do you really think that Max? I would think that it would be more consistant with your views to point out that criminal negligence is just what you have to expect from people, and it was the old folks's own fault they died because they didn't spontaniously form some sort of militant revolt against the nursing home staff, steal some busses, and drive themselves out of the storm's way.

???

Baron Max

 

[Baron Max]

Has anyone asked themselves ......where were the patients' "loved ones"???

Should they also be brought up on charges for crimes of abandonment or something like that?

Should they be exonerated simply because they paid someone else to care for them .....when they didn't want to bother with it themselves? Or for whatever the reasons?

Baron Max

 

[Asguard]

why the hell is it the fault of the familys of the patents that a nursing home wasnt evacuated?

as soon as ANY form of evac is ordered anywhere that people are in care of other people like hospitals, nursing homes and prisions SHOULD be evacuated. These people cant care for themselves and it shouldnt be negligence the charge should be MANSLAUGHTER on each count with 15 years for each person and no parol. let THEM see how they like being under the control of someone else.

That is assuming they are found guilty, innocent until proven

 

[Bells]

Has anyone asked themselves ......where were the patients' "loved ones"???

Should they also be brought up on charges for crimes of abandonment or something like that?

Should they be exonerated simply because they paid someone else to care for them .....when they didn't want to bother with it themselves? Or for whatever the reasons?

Baron Max

I wondered the same thing when I read about this last week in the newspaper. Where were the families when the warnings were given? Why did they not arrange for the evacuation of their 'loved ones' before the storm hit?

While the owner of the nursing home should face charges for simply leaving them there as well, the families of these people should also be looked to for some form of explanation.

We have become a society where it has become easy to simply dump our 'loved ones' in homes once they are deemed no longer to care for themselves. And it is always these families who merely leave their 'loved ones' in these homes who then come crawling out of the woodwork when the thought of cash by way of a lawsuit comes calling.

Both the nursing home and the families should be jointly liable for the deaths of these people.

 

[ReighnStorm]

by Bells
While the owner of the nursing home should face charges for simply leaving them there as well, the families of these people should also be looked to for some form of explanation.
Both the nursing home and the families should be jointly liable for the deaths of these people.

I think it was in part due to being a trust issue. They called the families and advised them that they would be evacuating and then said they would stay.

Workers at the nursing home called each family, Cobb said, to tell them they were prepared with supplies and medicine and were staying at the home. Only six people came to get family members, he said.
Dr. Bryan Bertucci, a coroner, said he called all five nursing homes in the parish as the storm was threatening the city, and all but St. Rita's said they were evacuating their patients.
cnn.com

 

[Bells]

I think it was in part due to being a trust issue. They called the families and advised them that they would be evacuating and then said they would stay.

From the article it states that the families were notified by the home that said home had the supplies and medications on hand to sit out the storm and were not evacuating. And when the coroner had called each of the nursing homes to advise them to evacuate, all but the nursing home in question said they would evacuate.

That six families saw it prudent enough to come to collect their families themselves because they realised that the home would not be taking their loved one's to safety shows that some cared. Sadly for the victims, the rest of the families saw fit to simply leave them there with the knowledge that they were not going to evacuate, even though the risk of the levies not holding was one of the primary reasons given for the mandatory evacuation order. In my honest opinion, the families and the home are jointly liable for the deaths of these poor people.

Dr. Bryan Bertucci, a coroner, said he called all five nursing homes in the parish as the storm was threatening the city, and all but St. Rita's said they were evacuating their patients.

By Sunday at 2 p.m., when the danger was imminent and a mandatory evacuation order had been issued, he called back and spoke with Mrs. Mangano.

"I told her I had two buses with two drivers that would take them wherever they want," Bertucci told CNN.

But he said he was told that five special needs patients could not be evacuated. "She said, 'I have five nurses, I have a generator, and I've spoken to the families and they said it was OK.' "
From your link

That she was worried about the 5 special needs patients is sickeningly touching. Especially in light of the fact that they had signed a treaty ensuring that ambulances would be available to them in the face of an evacuation order, but they never once even called the Acadian Ambulance Service to see about taking out even the 5 special needs patients.

But Foti said the owners had plenty of opportunity to move their charges out of the facility. The Manganos were asked if they wanted to evacuate the building and were offered buses; in addition, they had signed last April a contract with Acadian Ambulance Service to provide transportation in the event an evacuation was needed, Foti said, but "they were never called."
From your link

As for the families, the Mangano's attorney points out:

"At the end of the day the relatives of these people decided that it was best for their relatives to be there," he said.
From your link

Best for whom I wonder...

Tom Rodrigue, whose mother died in the home, was not satisfied. "She deserved the chance, you know, to be rescued instead of having to drown like a rat," he said.
Link

If she deserved the chance, why did he not evacuate her himself when he was advised by the staff that they were not evacuating the home? After all, six other families saw fit to get their loved ones out themselves since the home was quite happy to let them ride out the storm, regardless of the repeated warnings and evacuation orders given to them...

 

[DouBTlessWonDer]

The families should take some of the blame, if not most of it. They knew that they had family members in a potentially hazardous location, they should have gotten them out themselves. Instead, they are just blaming the owners because it is convienant to do so. Lawsuits will ensue, no doubt.

 

[Prince_James]

The more reasonable answer is this: Both families, the nursing home, and the patients themselves (who are conscious or coherent) are to blame. The families for not checking in on their relatives, the nursing home for not evacuating, and the patients for not finding means to evacuate themselves.

 

[Bells]

So you'd also lay the blame on the infirm, frail and many disabled patients who resided at the home? The fact that they were in the home indicates they needed care... they are unable to care for themselves hence why they were placed in the home.

And how should they have organised their own evacuation? Called the local taxi maybe? Hired their own coaches? Called their families who saw fit to leave them there even when they were advised that their loved ones were not going to be evacuated?

Maybe they expected that the people who were charged with caring for them (ie the nursing home in particular, as well as their families) would have taken care of them and taken them out of harms way.

 

[Quantum Quack]

IMO, the responsibility rests solely on those charged with the duty to take care of the patients. Of course the management took a calculated risk, afterall who was to know the outcomes of such a storm. They did however have the duty of care to ensure the safety of the tenants. They have declared their responsibility by stating that they would not evacuate. The management have assumed full and total responsibility by deciding against higher opinion [ state advice]

They also failed to have contigency plans in case they had made a mistake [ a mistake they did indeed make]

As to whether they can be enprisoned for negligence is another matter.

When a person takes it upon themselves to over rule a general concensus , that being evacuation is necessary they have taken full responsibility for outcomes.

If the storm turned out to be a fizzer they would be patting themselves on the back and telling every one how much money and inconvenience they saved, but alas nature proved them wrong and fatally wrong. Their calculated risk proved to be fatal.

So are they responsible for their decisions or not?
What does that responsibility entail?

The whole thing is tragically sad, but they did decide to go it alone and unfortunately a lot of people are now paying for that decision. Should not the management also pay?

Just an opinion and not set in concrete either.

 

[Prince_James]

Bells:

So you'd also lay the blame on the infirm, frail and many disabled patients who resided at the home? The fact that they were in the home indicates they needed care... they are unable to care for themselves hence why they were placed in the home.

And how should they have organised their own evacuation? Called the local taxi maybe? Hired their own coaches? Called their families who saw fit to leave them there even when they were advised that their loved ones were not going to be evacuated?

Maybe they expected that the people who were charged with caring for them (ie the nursing home in particular, as well as their families) would have taken care of them and taken them out of harms way.

Yes, I would. They ought to have attempted any and all efforts to get out of there, including calling up their family, or a private taxi or bus, or even just bugging the Hell out of the nursing staff. Supposing they did everything in their power, then they are not at fault, no.

IMO, the responsibility rests solely on those charged with the duty to take care of the patients. Of course the management took a calculated risk, afterall who was to know the outcomes of such a storm. They did however have the duty of care to ensure the safety of the tenants. They have declared their responsibility by stating that they would not evacuate. The management have assumed full and total responsibility by deciding against higher opinion [ state advice]

They bucked against a mandatory evacuation, not really a "calculated risk" that is legal.

So are they responsible for their decisions or not?
What does that responsibility entail?

They opted to take the route of non-safety, so are they responsible? Yes.

 

[milkweed]

Do you think this arrest is justifiable?

Yes I think it is a justified arrest. The situtation here is not unlike a day care and the obligations of the person running the daycare. Families or the person living there have hired these people (the nursing home owners) to provide living/care services. This would include keeping them safe from potential harm. Offers were made on several fronts to evacuate these persons and the owners made a choice that resulted in the deaths of numbers of persons in their care.

So far its not been reported whether or not the owners extended these offers of evacuation to the persons in their care. Did the owners just make a decision themselves on whether or not people would be evacuated?

 

[ReighnStorm]

by milkweed
Did the owners just make a decision themselves on whether or not people would be evacuated?

They did make the decision but they also called the relatives or what have you of the people in their care. What they told them or how they explained the situation to them somewhat made the decision for the relatives not to come and pick up their kinfolk. Who knows, the kinfolk may have decided to ride out the storm themselves and were convinced by the health providers that the patients were safer with them.