ESP Experimental design is flawed (Fraudulent).

Dinosaur

Rational Skeptic
Valued Senior Member
ESP experiments starting with Rhine at Duke university about 70 years ago are designed to find ESP even if it does not exist.

It seems like deliberate fraud to me. Consider the Rhine design, which is used by many others.

Rhine designed a set of 100 cards with five different designs (20 of each). Guessing should result in averaging 20 correct for each run through the deck. In a telepathy test, the person in charge looks at each card before the testee makes his guess. In a clairvoyance test, the person in charge does not look at each card first.

Hundreds or thousands of people are given initial tests. Those who average more than 20 correct are given more tests. those who average close to 20 correct for each run are not tested further. After a lot of testing, some people are discovered with scores which seem to be statistically incredible, or at least unusual. This is taken as evidence of ESP.

Now let us think about the basic design, and apply it to an experiment with simpler mathematics.

Suppose we started with 2048 people and asked them to guess heads or tails on a coin flip. About 1024 would figure to guess right. Now we ask the 1024 who guessed right to try again. About 512 would figure to guess right again. If you keep this up, you will find a few people who guess right 8-10 times in a row.

Would the above be evidence of ESP? Of course not, you would expect a few out of 2048 to have a run of correct guesses.

What would be a good experimental design? One that I can think of is the following.
  • Start with several thousand people and test them with the Rhine ESP deck or coin flips.

    Plot the results.

    Compare the plot with a plot of the expected results, which approximates a bell shaped curve.

    If the shape of the two plots is noticeably different, it would be evidence of ESP, or at least be a strong suggestion that ESP is possible.
Those, like Rhine, with significant academic credentials, could be expected to know enough to recognize that their experimental design is flawed. They should also be expected to know how to design a proper experiment, but I have never read about a good design with proper contrrols to avoid fraud.

The fact that they used a flawed design suggests to me that they are charlatans in spite of their credentials. Being a department head at a major university is a damn good job, with a significant salary and some prestige. If you can get way with being a charlatan, it is a lot easier than doing legitimate research in competition with real scientists.

When I was in ninth or tenth grade about 60 years ago, a friend of mine and I noticed an article about Rhine. ESP seemed like a cool idea to us, and we studied up on his work. We even ran some experiments using a deck of ordinary playing cards. Being arrogant teenagers, we decided that if we did not have ESP, nobody did. We were both into mathematics, especially probability since we enjoyed Blackjack and a few other gambling games. After a few days of exsperiments and discussions, we realized how foolish the Rhine design was.

If a couple of teenagers can recognize a bad experimental design, why do researchers with alleged credentials not also see the error? The answer is simple. You can make more money writing about ESP being credible than you can writing about it not working.

A wise man once said.
I know of no good evidence for . . . I know of a lot of good evidence that people have hallucinations, misremember what they saw, misinterpret what they saw, and tell lies about what they saw.
Fill in ESP, UFO phenomena, Bermuda Triangle nonsense, et cetera for the . . .
 
Yes you are correct regarding those statistical experiments..

But Ive seen some experiments violating completely the Bell curve..

But the main proof of ESP does not come from full statistical results..

Mainly comes from "remote view" experiments(some statistic elements of course)..

For example the remote viewer is completely blind to what the target is, then a monitor (he is too blind to the target) will make a session with the viewer asking questions to details that the viewer sees in his mind

There are SAIC and SRI experiments that obtained in constant experiments about 60% to 90% hits, relative to the general aspect of the target but detailed parts of the target itself

Without those more hard evidence the Lab experiments wouldnt survive until today, with still many ongoing Experiments on such phenomena..

Of course If your a diehard skeptic, trying for you to accept this will be as if trying to prove that there is or there isnt a God...
:rolleyes:

No matter the experiments, many skeptics will still say its all a bunch of bunk..
 
Last edited:
60-90% Hits?

Try 15%, no doubt with favourable interpretation.

Source; http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/stargate.htm

With 90% hit rates, how come Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, and the Iraqi WMD are still eluding everyone? Surely, such a useful tool would still be employed it if were that reliable?

JUst like WMD, the efficacy of RV has to be there before it can be found. I think we both know neither actually exist.
 
Originally posted by Dinosaur
ESP experiments starting with Rhine at Duke university about 70 years ago are designed to find ESP even if it does not exist.

Which is probably why they are no longer affiliated with Duke University and haven't been for some time. During the 1970's, it was a pop-culture thing to "investigate the paranormal" in the United States University system.

After it was apparent that no conclusive results could be obtained with strict scientific methodology, most of the Universities abandoned their "paranormal" curricula. There are one or two exceptions, and perhaps these are left to lure students as even the existing programs have yet to publish any conclusive data. In fact, of the existing programs, the data that I've seen is suggestive that the null hypotheses are correct.
 
Originally posted by phlogistician
60-90% Hits?

Try 15%, no doubt with favourable interpretation.

Source; http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/stargate.htm

With 90% hit rates, how come Osama Bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, and the Iraqi WMD are still eluding everyone? Surely, such a useful tool would still be employed it if were that reliable?

JUst like WMD, the efficacy of RV has to be there before it can be found. I think we both know neither actually exist.

Just because your not aware of those experiments doesnt mean they dont exist..

Since you do all the work to find those prior esp experiments
Try to search for the SRI ESP/PK experiments..

Sattelite inteligence and spy inteligence is between 5% to 99% accurate info... There is no "100% hit" reconaissance method in espionage... every method as his % of misses

According to this, and using psy spying with other forms of inteliggence CIA did found a very good use for it..

And dont believe much in that overhyped AIR report...
really "bad science" was used in it, like for example evaluating less than 5% of the total Remoteview material they had for those more than 20 years
 
Originally posted by Ertai
Just because your not aware of those experiments doesnt mean they dont exist..
Once again, reather then say 'the proof exists', show us! Otherwise Shut It!
 
To be fair, he and at least one other has mentioned a few "papers" or studies. I say to them, pick one (one each, or team up on one) then let's examine it.

I say this, because I can predict Ertai's and Halcyon's responses.... "how many times do I have to list sources?.... I'm not your research assistant.... yada, yada, blah ;)

What do you say? It is, afterall, the job of the claimant to provide proof, but I'm willing to go halfway....
 
Yep, I'll meet them halfway, and read the papers.

Although we should really re-create the experiments, as the original findings may be tainted. Let's face it, cold war paranoia gave these 'researchers' a tap into large Govt coffers. The guy that ran the experiments was a scientologist, no doubt in pursuit of the next level of human development and getting rid of his thetans etc etc, so pretty much a loon.

So can we be sure that the 'double blind' experiments really were so? That negative results weren't lost?

After twenty years, the whole thing should have been a well understood science, not closed down and forgotten.

I'll read the papers if any are offered, but I will be skeptical as to their accuracy.
 
Did the US government really waste money funding ESP research?

I thought that was a myth.
 
No DInassour..

The Wave of Skeptics made you believe it was a myth..

And yes they made you believe too that although these studies were made, they were all pseudoscience, or just bad science..

Sorry, Their both myths...
But according to skeptics I dont have hardevidence of this..

oh well... at least in some skeptic sites and the biggest skeptic foundations they admit that Nature and SCIAM Articles indeed existed, but they still debunk those..

Amazing what these skeptics claim and debunk..
Anything is debunkable according to their logic..
 
There seems to be one believer and several skeptics here.

Usually I am outnumbered by believers in whatever.

I doubt that congress budgeted funds for ESP. If any research was done, it had to be paid for with discretionary funds.

What agency (if any) did the research? Might the Freedom of Information Act allow me to get any data about such experiments by the US government?
 
Dinosaur has brought up a typical argument used against those who investigate paranormal phenomena. This is referred to as "the filedrawer problem" in the social sciences. The general idea is that non-significant studies are published less often than significant studies, or basically any study that doesn't support what you're trying to prove is ignored.

Radin and Nelson (1) performed an analysis on experiments dealing with consciousness-related anomalies in random physical systems (known to some as micro PK) and in their paper they addressed this specific problem. They concluded that approximately 90 times the number of studies actually reported would be required to reduce the reported effects to nonsignificance, (54 000 compared to about 600 reported) while it is accepted that an effect can be considered robust if the failsafe number is more than 5 times the observed number of studies.

1. D. Radin and R. Nelson, "Evidence for Consciousness-Related Anomalies in Random Physical Systems," Foundations of Physics Vol. 19, No. 12, 1989.
 
The Freedom Information Act does have those Remote View files

Some are declassified and ARE public..
But I really though you knew about this..

Even skeptics know about this and try to debunk these claims that the government scientists had..

Anyway ongoing experiments are still true today and are not "cold war" crazyness

Check the link for a lot of Psi labs, addresses and phonenumbers there:

http://www.parapsych.org/psi_research_laboratories.html

Two of them are part of larger government scientific labs
 
Originally posted by SkinWalker
I say this, because I can predict Ertai's and Halcyon's responses.... "how many times do I have to list sources?.... I'm not your research assistant.... yada, yada, blah ;)

What do you say? It is, afterall, the job of the claimant to provide proof, but I'm willing to go halfway....

Hey, I haven't said anything up to this point regarding your categorizing me, but it's enough already. As an anthropologist myself, I can understand completely a lot of your viewpoints, in fact, they're very reminiscent of me few years ago. It's because I can empathize with you that I've sustained this dialogue between us. To be truthful, I have nothing to prove, and nothing to gain by swaying any of you. I originally started posting on this topic to bring out discussion on it because I was interested in gaining wider perspectives on this information, but due to all parties involved, including myself, it almost instantly degenerated. I do not believe anything. I take into consideration the amount of verifiable(I realize this a relative term) information I have imbibed, and make judgements based on that information. I have spent many, many years at it, and I do consider myself to be adequately versed, however I never took to this research with a mind to have to ever impart it on anyone else, so the methods I used were rather personal, enough to satisfy me, and as I have found, are rather hard to relate to others.

I think that your mention of meeting halfway is noble, and not what I've come to expect from a few others around here. And I'm willing to continue this line of dialogue with you for the very reason that you seem to be well capable of evaluating the information. You need to stop categorizing me, however. I'm not someone with a need to believe in something, indeed, I have no faith or interst to have any, I do not care. I have no desire to believe in any of what we discuss, I am only interested in what I feel has been proven, what has yet to be proven, and how it relates to consciousness and the interaction of mind to body. The study of consciousness has taken over any interest I have had in the field of Anthropolgy, so my claim to that title is actually tenuous at best.

You also need to understand that I am essentially a hermit, I have no more existing relationships other than my wife and her family, work acquaintances not being considered. I do not even own a phone at home, so reaching out and finding the resources to make this information available to you are not as easy as thought. But I am trying. Scartch that, I'm not trying, I'm in the process of doing. My local library does not have a scanner, either.(I live in one of the poorest communities in the US.)

So let's be a bit more professional about this(directed to myself, equally), and I'll try to make available to you what I know.
 
Originally posted by Halcyon
You need to stop categorizing me, however. I'm not someone with a need to believe in something, indeed, I have no faith or interst to have any, I do not care. I have no desire to believe in any of what we discuss, I am only interested in what I feel has been proven, what has yet to be proven, and how it relates to consciousness and the interaction of mind to body.

Fair enough... Like you, I've come to develop certain expectations about some of the personalities that inhabit this community (SciForums). I guess it's easy to make assumptions and presumptions without seeing all perspectives.

Originally posted by Halcyon
The study of consciousness has taken over any interest I have had in the field of Anthropolgy, so my claim to that title is actually tenuous at best.

I, too, have an interest in that area, though barely more than passing. I would, however, recommend any readings by Vilayanur S. Ramachandran. He's a premeire researcher in the field and Director of the Center for Brain and Cognition, University of California, San Diego. Also, do a search for "reith lectures" in google and choose the first set of links that come up. You won't be disappointed.

Originally posted by Halcyon
I do not even own a phone at home, so reaching out and finding the resources to make this information available to you are not as easy as thought.

Man! I thought I had it rough without cable TV! ;)

Originally posted by Halcyon
So let's be a bit more professional about this(directed to myself, equally), and I'll try to make available to you what I know.

Again, fair enough. I look forward to more dialog.
 
Back
Top