Equal Protection? (Immigration/naturalization)

Tiassa

Let us not launch the boat ...
Valued Senior Member
As an American citizen born in the United States, there are some questions that I realize I've never had to answer in order to be afforded my Constitutionally-guaranteed rights and my citizenship as an American.

The first parts of an Application for Naturalization (N-400 rev. 7.23.2002).

I highly doubt I would be allowed in the country. Parts 1-6 asks for typical vital information. Part 7 asks you to document your whereabouts outside the United States. I've never had to report to my government a day trip to Canada in such a manner. Part 8 is marital history; part 9 is about your children. Here we go. Part 10, including my responses, should I ever be asked these questions officially:

• . . . have you ever failed to file a required Federal, state, or local tax return? (Yes; at least three times.)
• Do you owe any overdue taxes? (Yes; but it'll cost you more than it's worth to get it from me before I have the money.)
• Have you ever been a member of or associated with any organization, association, fund, foundation . . . in the U.S. or any other place? (Yes, too many to list for the purposes of this topic.)
• Have you ever been a member of or in any way associated (either directly or indirectly) with: The Communist party? (Yes - subscribed to a newspaper) Any other totalitarian party? (No - I'm a Democrat by habit.) A terrorist organization? (Depends on who's making the list.)
• Have you ever advocated (either directly or indirectly) the overthrow of any government by force or violence? (Yes - expulsion of British from Northern Ireland; expulsion of Hussein regime in Iraq ca. 1984 or so; general advocacy of Communist, Socialist, or Anarchist revolution)
• Have you ever persecuted (either directly or indirectly) any person because of race, religion, national origin, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion? (Yes - Christians, Republicans, Christian Republicans, Neo-Nazis ... and hey ... you said indirectly as well. Sorry, I can't remember all the people I called dirty names when I was a kid and didn't know better.)
• Have you ever committed a crime or offense for which you were NOT arrested? (Yes - more than I can document.)
• Have you ever been arrested, cited, or detained by any law enforcement officer (including INS and military) for any reason? (Yes - cited for DUI, 1996; received written warning for burnt-out taillight in 1992.)
• Have you ever been charged with committing any crime or offense? (Yes - DUI, contempt of court)
• Have you ever:
- been a habitual drunkard? (Yes - 1994-97)
- been a prostitute, or procured anyone for prostitution? (Ummm ... no. Barely.)
- sold or smuggled controlled substances, illegal drugs or narcotics? (Yes - too many times to list.)
- gambled illegally or received income from illegal gambling? (Yes - I would actually have to remember what year it was, and that could take a while.)

Part 14 is the oath of allegiance: I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abujre all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen;

that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic;
that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same;
that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law;
that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law'
that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and
that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.


I mean, seriously ... all of that and you have to believe in God, too?

But where's the equal protection? I'm comfortable with the oath renouncing foreign allegiances; that's easy enough to ask. But ... it would appear that a naturalized immigrant to the United States must necessarily be of higher character and standing than his or her neighbors.

Seriously ... I don't think I'd be let into my own country if I wasn't born here.

What about you?
 
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That is strange. I thought American citizens were allowed to be drunken communist racists. Heck, we can even be terrorists in some cases, like the KKK or the American patriot militias movement, who, from what I have heard, aren't any worse for the ware of the so called war on terror. Oh well, I guess we can just call it social engineering. Sure we respect people’s rights to be like this, but we sure don't want to import any more than we already have.
 
tiassa
I think you put too much stock into the power of individual rights. Haha, rights are something you have until you actually need them.
 
What crushes me, though, is even I'm not doctrinally obliged to "support and defend the Constitution." I do so because I believe in it and entrust it as the Supreme Law of the Land within the United States.

Fireguy ... it's not news, I admit. But it is ironic, at the very least. You must be a better citizen than I in order to become an American. My freedom truly is a privilege by comparison.

It merely occurs to me that this isn't necessarily "equal protection under the law."

I understand wanting to keep out terrorists and violent criminals, but at the same time ... atheists?
 
Sorry tiassa. After reading your original post I was overwhelmed with cynacism by the 'qualifier' - as it appears to me - to full protection under the constitution of the US.

This seems like fun, I'll provide my answers to those same questions. Fittingly, I'm a Canadian and would be subject to the same test - lets see if I'd qualify to be a 'worthwhile' US citizen.

• . . . have you ever failed to file a required Federal, state, or local tax return? (No. I wouldn't consider my concious desission to not file as a failure, but rather a triumph)
• Do you owe any overdue taxes? (Possibly. Although I wouldn't really know until I file.)
• Have you ever been a member of or associated with any organization, association, fund, foundation . . . in the U.S. or any other place? (YES! I work for an organization commonly known as the Government, contributed money and time to plenty of foundations...is this enough info.?)
• Have you ever been a member of or in any way associated (either directly or indirectly) with: The Communist party? (Maybe, my uncle was a Secretary for a communist party in a communist country, does that count?) Any other totalitarian party? (No. I'm a socialist) A terrorist organization? (Yes. Sierra Legal Defense, World Wildlife Fund...I'll stop there, I'm thinking this info. may hurt my chances.)
• Have you ever advocated (either directly or indirectly) the overthrow of any government by force or violence? (All the time. Who the hell wrote these questions, I smell anarchy on the horizon - are you with me?)
• Have you ever persecuted (either directly or indirectly) any person because of race, religion, national origin, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion? (Yes)
• Have you ever committed a crime or offense for which you were NOT arrested? (No. My actions are deemed a criminal offense by a court of law, and those actions I've never stood trial for are in no way criminal offences.)
• Have you ever been arrested, cited, or detained by any law enforcement officer (including INS and military) for any reason? (Yes. And they were deemed criminal offences by a court of law)
• Have you ever been charged with committing any crime or offense? (Yes)
• Have you ever:
- been a habitual drunkard? (Yes)
- been a prostitute, or procured anyone for prostitution? (No)
- sold or smuggled controlled substances, illegal drugs or narcotics? (Yes)
- gambled illegally or received income from illegal gambling? (Yes)

Oh well, I suppose I'll have to suffer here in Canada - I'm not 'worthwhile' enough to be an American citizen.
 
Hey maybe you're all just taking the tone of the questions in the wrong way. You're assuming that if you answer things like "Yeah I'm a communist and a drunk" then that's going to count against you. Maybe these questions are meant to be a sly advertisement for America you know, "Have you ever been a drunken totalitarian communist who hates people of other ethnicities, traffics drugs, and gambles his money away? No? Then you're in for a treat, welcome to America!" you know, that sort of thing, I think it really sells this nation.

Swearing that oath to God however is kind of funny. I could imagine a shifty atheist filling out those papers and getting to the oath and feeling nervous as hell because he doesn’t really believe in any of it and then suddenly he hears that he’s being sworn in by God, hehe. He could just laugh shrug his shoulders and say “Oh sure, I’ll swear that to God! got anything else you’d like me to swear to God while I’m at it?” As he giggles like a maniac.
 
I wonder, concidering our current involvement in Iraq, if answering yes to the part about "Have you ever advocated the violent overthrow of a governmnet" part would be a pro or a con.
 
spymoose
I wonder, concidering our current involvement in Iraq, if answering yes to the part about "Have you ever advocated the violent overthrow of a governmnet" part would be a pro or a con. [sic]

Now that is funny stuff. hahaha
 
fireguy_31 said:
mystech
I think that was the point tiassa was making, and the point I was affirming.
Was it? I thought you were trying to paint the standard to be rather Ironic, I was trying to be satirical and say that it's a good marketing ploy.
 
Something something, Burt Ward

It's all fair. Equal protection is just the first means I could think of to make a discussion. Other than that, it's all art.

Overthrow of Iraq? I'm thinking that my failure to support the present operation that overthrew Iraq would count against me more than my youthful indiscretion when I thought it wrong to be supporting a dictator and human rights abuser, and advocated the invasive overthrow of the Hussein regime (e.g. the overthrow of a U.S. ally).

At any rate, it's hard for me to believe that a being pot-smoking Anarchist with an arrest record, a long history of advocating against organizations and movements both Christian and Republican-party oriented, and has expressed opinions in support of a movement deemed terrorist (Irish Republican - general support) who refuses to use God as a fallacious appeal to my credibility would work in my favor.

And in that sense, I think it's more of a filter than a selling point; satirical or not, I hadn't really given that aspect much thought.

It would seem to encourage the "righteous" as much as it might "discourage" the unrighteous; I think that some of us presume our answers to count against us might reflect on the actual applicants as well.

Sure, there was a time when terrorrists could walk in the door. Nazis, too. And swearing on God didn't get in their way.

But ... at the same time, my minor legal issues (related to DUI) could bar my entry--even for vacation--to a number of European countries, and New Zeland at least.

However ... Fireguy's uncle opens yet another issue I hadn't figured: Okay, so you did jail time. For not being enough of a racist, theological prig under the Taleban. You know ... I say, "Welcome to America."

Hell, this is fun.
 
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It would seem to encourage the "righteous" as much as it might "discourage" the unrighteous; I think that some of us presume our answers to count against us might reflect on the actual applicants as well.

That's a real good point tiassa. I mean, should I consider myself a righteous applicant because I 'recognize' my answers go against the ideal of a perfect citizen, therfore rendering me a 'good' applicant?

Okay, so lets say I repent all my 'sins' - which is in accordance to the god pledge thing and lets face it, those who preach something(the selection committee) should practice it too, no? - can I safely assume I could be the ideal candidate? If that's the case then I'd emphatically declare myself really, really, really, really sorry for any answer I provided that appears contrary to the questionaires intent - in the eyes of 'the selection committee'.

Hmm, now that i think of it maybe that questionaire IS the perfect filter.. Aww shit, now i'm all confused.. :D i always do this - over think things i.e. someone asks me what time it is and I respond by explaining how a watch is built..

Wait a minute, tiassa has already accepted me as an honorary citizen of the US. I suppose i don't have to worry about my answers anymore.. Thanks man, my uncle would be proud of my achievements in spite of my beliefs.

You're right, this is fun. :)
 
Apparently *my* country (Australia) only scrapped the White Australia policy (related to immigration, and exactly what it sounds like) in the 70s. *blinks* Trust the bureaucracy to provide the closemindedness of the day.
• Have you ever advocated (either directly or indirectly) the overthrow of any government by force or violence?
• Have you ever persecuted (either directly or indirectly) any person because of race, religion, national origin, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion?
Is it just me, or do I smell a hypocrite?
;) I wouldn't be let in either, and...
hours of fun haha.
 
lizey said:
Apparently *my* country (Australia) only scrapped the White Australia policy (related to immigration, and exactly what it sounds like) in the 70s.

Hehe, are you absolutely sure that they've scrapped that policy? Sure the US was guilty of putting Asians in labor camps for 4 years, but that was once over half a decade ago, Australia is still doing it to this day, that's one hell of an immigration policy! Hmm Though I suppose it should be noted that these prison camps are run by an American company. . .
 
Geez, you have to believe in god, renounce foreign alligences, obey american law, serve the american nation if called upon, defend the constitution and laws? That really does not sound very free at all... in New Zealand all you have to do to be a citizen is renounce any support for the Australian Rugby team and like gummi lollies... they don't care who you fight for or who or what you say sucks.
 
lizey said:
Apparently *my* country (Australia) only scrapped the White Australia policy (related to immigration, and exactly what it sounds like) in the 70s. *blinks* Trust the bureaucracy to provide the closemindedness of the day.

;) I wouldn't be let in either, and...
hours of fun haha.
Yeah that actually never was an official policy so they couldn't have scrapped it. What they DID do was introduce the National Immigration Act which meant they could kick anyone they wanted out, and stop people they didn't want from coming in... but this was actually designed so that they could control communist influence. It was the australian public who supported white superiority. They then changed this in the 1970's because they realised that believing in White Superiority was very american.

Also, i should hope, lizey, that you never even try to become a citizen (let in) because this is America we're talking about!
 
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