Empathy vs. Envy: The underlying political divide?

hypewaders

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Political discussions here often get superceded by this. The typical "right-wing" pundits often resentfully dismiss empathy, coexistence, co-operation, kindness, etc. as detestable idealism. I'm not convinced that animal competitiveness and aggression rule our destinies, but something like that seems to be a sacred premise to the far right.

The rancour towards positivity about humanity seems to underly many discussions. Some people become easily disturbed by expressions of optimism about humanity, and by praise and hope for human empathy. Where does that come from?

Competition and exploitation obviously do surround us. But in my experience, my life has been filled with kindnesses from such a wide variety of people in a wide variety of places and cultures, that I am convinced that our empathy and collective awareness is universal. It appears to be refininng through history, causing our quality of life to improve our trajectory on the entire timeline, spanning the shorter-term triumphs and tragedies of our history.

So I'm curious about thoughts on the progress of empathy, and also the opposing appraisals of humanity that seem to me to underly "progressive" and "conservative" categorizations.
 
Political discussions here often get superceded by this. The typical "right-wing" pundits often resentfully dismiss empathy, coexistence, co-operation, kindness, etc. as detestable idealism. I'm not convinced that animal competitiveness and aggression rule our destinies, but something like that seems to be a sacred premise to the far right.

The rancour towards positivity about humanity seems to underly many discussions. Some people become easily disturbed by expressions of optimism about humanity, and by praise and hope for human empathy. Where does that come from?

Competition and exploitation obviously do surround us. But in my experience, my life has been filled with kindnesses from such a wide variety of people in a wide variety of places and cultures, that I am convinced that our empathy and collective awareness is universal. It appears to be refininng through history, causing our quality of life to improve our trajectory on the entire timeline, spanning the shorter-term triumphs and tragedies of our history.

So I'm curious about thoughts on the progress of empathy, and also the opposing appraisals of humanity that seem to me to underly "progressive" and "conservative" categorizations.

Misguided notions of what constitutes superiority and progress. But red, in a different context has explained it much better

But, even taking his [Satyr's] novels seriously, they hold no fear for me. I reject his basic premise: that Man has purpose, destiny, an ultimate goal, and that, whatever it is (I've never seen him clearly define it) we could somehow get there by acting like beasts in the field. I see that man is a social animal, with our greatest achievements coming from a mixture of co-operation and controlled competition. In almost every arena that our competitive streak is given free reign the results are almost always negative: poverty, corruption, death and destruction. Furthermore every attempt to massively re-engineer society on the scale he advocates, from the Great Leap Forward to the Killing Fields, from Stalinist Russia to Nazi Germany, has ended in disaster on an unimaginable scale.

But perhaps the revolution he intends is more personal? A revolution of the mind. I can certainly see the value in emphasising individual mental strength but not in taking it to the extreme that he does. The dog-eat-dog social order he wants seems pointlessly destructive. What's the aim? A society of supermen, I suppose. All mediocrity purged. Good luck with that. I can't really empathise because I'm too much of a dull pragmatist to envision such a lofty ideal. A drugged, mindless ram, locked into a trajectory of birth, work and death, too stupid to conceive of more, too inarticulate to express it, too little time to pursue it. What would I know. What would any of us know.

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=1613060#post1613060
 
That's it. Almost. I'm further wondering if our political camps are a distraction or camouflage for these opposing perspectives. I'm wondering if the cynical outlook is not just an inherently resentful perspective, but if it will also become more dangerously cornered the further we progress. Envy so hates/fears empathy.

If you didn't care what happened to me,
And I didn't care for you,
We would zig zag our way through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain.
Wondering which of the buggars to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing.

You know that I care what happens to you,
And I know that you care for me.
So I don't feel alone,
Or the weight of the stone,
Now that I've found somewhere safe
To bury my bone.
And any fool knows a dog needs a home,
A shelter from pigs on the wing.
 
Political discussions here often get superceded by this. The typical "right-wing" pundits often resentfully dismiss empathy, coexistence, co-operation, kindness, etc. as detestable idealism.

Oh, I'm not resentful of the ideals of human compassion ...I'm resentful of people who sit behind their computers and PRETEND to be compassionate! If one was truly compassionate of others' plight, would they be talking about it, or would they be out DOING something to help?

Some people become easily disturbed by expressions of optimism about humanity, and by praise and hope for human empathy. Where does that come from?

Where does it come from? Well, let's start with the multitude of lies that we've all heard ....charities who claim to want to help others in need ...so we give our hard-earned money, only to find that those same "empathetic" people absconded with all the money and didn't do a fuckin' thing for the needy. Let's talk about those who claim to want to help others, only to find later that they were actually just exploiting them instead.

But in my experience, my life has been filled with kindnesses from such a wide variety of people in a wide variety of places and cultures, that I am convinced that our empathy and collective awareness is universal.

Well, golly, what a cute, sweet, little story. But do you think that happens to everyone? If not, then yours is only one story ...out of millions of people who have become victims of crime, hunger, poverty, disease, fraud,.....

Think about it some -- if everyone was, as you seem to think, compassionate and caring, then why is there so much misery in the world? Hell, think about it, if even half of the people in the world were compassionate and caring, then they could care for the other half, and there still wouldn't be any misery.

See? The real-life evidence of world misery proves the opposite of what you claim ...that humans are compassionate and caring.

So ...are you convinced of the universal human empathy, or are you really just convinced that everyone lies to make that claim? Anyone can pretend to be empathetic and caring, but are they? Talk is cheap, Hype.

Think about it again, Hype, .....would there be so much misery in the world if everyone who claims to be compassionate and caring really WAS compassionate and caring?

Anyone can make the claim, showing it or working for it is quite another story. Personally I think the news media is responsible for those feelings in people ....showing pictures of starving children in distant lands ...it's easy to feel sympathy and compassion. But when the pictures are gone, do we do anything? Or just go on enjoying our own lives?

Baron Max
 
Baron Max: "Oh, I'm not resentful of the ideals of human compassion ...I'm resentful of people who sit behind their computers and PRETEND to be compassionate! If one was truly compassionate of others' plight, would they be talking about it, or would they be out DOING something to help?"

Talking things over helps think them through, and helps us to consider more aspects. Thinking things through with an open thoroughness guides and motivates our actions.

"Where does [being disturbed at optimism, hope, and empathy] come from? Well, let's start with the multitude of lies that we've all heard ....charities who claim to want to help others in need ...so we give our hard-earned money, only to find that those same "empathetic" people absconded with all the money and didn't do a fuckin' thing for the needy. Let's talk about those who claim to want to help others, only to find later that they were actually just exploiting them instead."

Have you considered that you could be overgeneralizing? The many people I've met who are dedicated to humanitarian efforts have never been involved in corruption. You're painting with a broad and cynical brush. I've known many people who are compassionate as a matter of habit- people who are considerate and concerned for others in an everyday way, without conscious effort. My life has been filled with kindnesses from such a wide variety of people in a wide variety of places and cultures, that I am convinced that our empathy and collective awareness is universal.

"Well, golly, what a cute, sweet, little story. But do you think that happens to everyone?"

Yes, I think so. The greatest generosities I've ever experienced were the kind acts of impoverished and victimized people.

...yours is only one story ...out of millions of people who have become victims of crime, hunger, poverty, disease, fraud,.....

People more often reciprocate kindness than hurt.

"...if everyone was, as you seem to think, compassionate and caring, then why is there so much misery in the world?"

I don't think everyone is compassionate and caring. I think that's the problem.

"...if even half of the people in the world were compassionate and caring, then they could care for the other half, and there still wouldn't be any misery."

No, it only takes a slight minority to create miseries.

"See? The real-life evidence of world misery proves the opposite of what you claim ...that humans are compassionate and caring."

You're leaping to hasty conclusions.

"So ...are you convinced of the universal human empathy"

I think it can change the world. Here, I'm wondering if respect or disrespect for empathy underlies all of our politics.

...or are you really just convinced that everyone lies to make that claim?"

Sincere empathy is hard to fake. Try, if you like.

"Anyone can pretend to be empathetic and caring, but are they?"

What would be the point of faking it?

"Talk is cheap, Hype."

I don't think so, especially when we are talking sincerely about something important like this.

"...would there be so much misery in the world if everyone who claims to be compassionate and caring really WAS compassionate and caring?"

Probably not.

"Anyone can make the claim, showing it or working for it is quite another story."

I agree.

"...the news media is responsible for those feelings in people ....showing pictures of starving children in distant lands ...it's easy to feel sympathy and compassion."

What's wrong with becoming aware of suffering?

"But when the pictures are gone, do we do anything?"

Some of us do.

"Or just go on enjoying our own lives?"

It's possible to do both; helping is enjoyable.

You blame apathy on the news media. Why?
 
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Have you considered that you could be overgeneralizing?

Sure I have. How 'bout you? I'd say that you're overgeneralizing easily as much as me ...perhaps more so. I, for example, have pointing out several things that seem to make your overgeneralizations more leading than my own.

For example, you overgeneralize that most people are kind and compassionate and empthetic, yet there's tons of misery in the world. Where are all those compassionate people's help ...and why doesn't it get to those miserable people?

The many people I've met who are dedicated to humanitarian efforts have never been involved in corruption. .... I've known many people who are compassionate as a matter of habit- people who are considerate and concerned for others in an everyday way, without conscious effort.

How many people is that exactly? And what percentage is it relative to all the people on Earth? And you accuse me of overgeneralizing???

My life has been filled with kindnesses from such a wide variety of people in a wide variety of places and cultures, that I am convinced that our empathy and collective awareness is universal.

As noted above ....How many people? And what percentage does it represent?

Hype, you've know a few people who are nice guys, yet you're now convinced that most people are the same nice guys. I don't believe your methods of determining conclusions would be considered very scientific. Think about it. If person grew up in the ghettos, wouldn't he think that all people were criminals and thieves? Or if a person grew up in multi-$$ mansions and private schools, surrounded by opulence, he'd think the whole world was like that, wouldn't he? See? That's exactly what you're doing ....probably without thinking about it. You, dear sir, are overgeneralizing to much, much greater degree than I am.

The greatest generosities I've ever experienced were the kind acts of impoverished and victimized people.

How many and what percentage does it represent? Is it enough for you to base your entire conclusions about humans? All over the world?

People more often reciprocate kindness than hurt.

Which people? How many of them? And on what do you base that assertion? Or are you just saying in the hopes that it's true?

I don't think everyone is compassionate and caring. I think that's the problem. ..... No, it only takes a slight minority to create miseries.

Well, nice of you to admit it. Now, if you could just use that same thinking and apply it to the luvy-duvy, liberal, compassionate speeches that you make, we could get on with this discussion.

Here, I'm wondering if respect or disrespect for empathy underlies all of our politics.

Politicians are human, aren't they? So, ...what's the percentage that you arrived at to the questions I posed above?

Sincere empathy is hard to fake.

I disagree. And worse, we in the west are "brainwashed" into saying it so as to fit in with our peers ...to be politically correct. Because as you know damned well, people who are like me, and are willing to admit it, are ostracized by people like you. So people have been forced to pretend compassion for their entire lives ....it comes natural to them and is easy to fake.

What's wrong with becoming aware of suffering?

Nothing if we can do something about it. But it's just agony and misery if we just have to look at it, but do nothing about it. Just like the Darfur problem ...the media keeps bringing it up, the UN keeps talking about it, but no one is doing jack shit about it. So why talk about it if you ain't gonna' do nothing about it? It's like me talking about wanting a bigger dick!!

It's possible to do both; helping is enjoyable.

For you, maybe. But don't go overgeneralizing again, okay? Check my notes above and tell me what percentages you arrived at, Okay?

You blame apathy on the news media. Why?

Because they've saturated us with news of the misery of others ...and no one does anything about it. Just like Darfur as noted above ...we've heard about Darfur and seen the pictures to the point that it's become normal for us to see it and hear about it.

We think nothing of those issues because they're always there, always in the news, and there's never any good news about it ...always bad news. After a while, it becomes normal life, nothing more.

Look at murder as another example. A "regular ol' murder" is now so common that most aren't even reported. I think I heard that less than 25% of murders are reported at all. The only murders that make the news these days are "sensational" type murders ....where the victims are cut up into little tiny pieces, or the victim is a little girl, or a pregnant movie star!

Nope, Sorry, Hype, but people just ain't generally compassionate in action ....though everyone will claim to be compassionate. I think everyone is greedy as hell, but very few will admit it, right? See? It's political correctness, it's peer pressure, ....we say what think others want to hear so that we can be seen as "nice guys".

Humans suck. And they also lie like hell.

Baron Max
 
baron said:
If one was truly compassionate of others' plight, would they be talking about it, or would they be out DOING something to help?
Some would talk, some would act, some would do both.

Even the compassionate are occasionally lazy, confused, intimidated, ignorant, wrong, etc. No one is claiming sainthood for humans, here.
baron said:
How many people is that exactly? And what percentage is it relative to all the people on Earth? And you accuse me of overgeneralizing???
I've often noticed that another concept that you and your political compadres have a hard time with is the "statistical sample".

That's an interesting correlation, IMHO.
baron said:
Because as you know damned well, people who are like me, and are willing to admit it, are ostracized by people like you. So people have been forced to pretend compassion for their entire lives ....it comes natural to them and is easy to fake.
Seems odd such ostracism has such large effects. The huge majority of cuthroats and selfish should be able to just shrug it off, no?
 
The rancour towards positivity about humanity seems to underly many discussions. Some people become easily disturbed by expressions of optimism about humanity, and by praise and hope for human empathy. Where does that come from?

I am critical about expressions of optimism about humanity and about praise and hope for human empathy when these expressions are made by people who defend liberalism, who defend politically correct, dilluted versions of Christianity, Buddhism or Taoism, who defend cognitive and moral relativism, by Beatniks and by Hippies.

I am critical about these people's expressions of optimism about humanity and about praise and hope for human empathy because these people are clearly unable to provide workable instructions on how to develop optimism and empathy; they are unable to come up with an actual workable plan how to better the word.
They are basically just dreaming and fantasizing, using fancy words and dazzling concepts - but which all really have the value of mental froth.
 
Some thoughts

There is a curious correlation, as well. There are those who are cynical about life, who blame their cynicism on other people. Curiously, many of these also seem to enjoy the idea of being cynical of, opposed to, and condescending toward other people and the idea of civilization. It is as if they are quietly hoping that civilization will fail so that they no longer have to pretend. If we were in a fictional setting, this would be more easily understood. In the fantasy world of Steven Brust's Dragaera, for instance, the Jhereg kill for money, the Dragons kill for honor, and the Dzur kill for fun. (You can replace "kill" with "fight", but it all amounts to the same.) Interestingly, and perhaps predictably, each group finds something perverse about the other's motivations.

If we think about it in terms of capitalism, 'tis true that this seems to be the way of things. Buying and selling seems a necessity of socially-cooperative life. But it is not enough to simply recognize the utility. Some people are compelled to turn the whole thing into a competition, as if having disproportionately more than one's neighbors is somehow a virtue.

And I think the cynicism is a device to shout down one's internal doubts and fears. But as we see with people like OJ Simpson and Robert Chambers:


Guilty conscience? Robert Chambers, the "Preppy Killer", entering
court last month for arraignment on cocaine-distribution charges that could
put the killer behind bars for life. (Photo: Lazano/AP)

The accused Brentwood killer and the Preppy Killer both, essentially, got away. Simpson's attorneys exploited shoddy police work and brutalized the DA's office in order to force the acquittal of a man most would agree is guilty. Robert Chambers and his attorneys convinced a jury that one could do that much damage to a victim and have it still be an accident.

Now, these are extreme examples, admittedly. On a more mundane level, I've watched the transformation occur. A point I've made about the Iraqi Bush War: if I had told people, back around, say, 1985, what their addiction to Ronald Reagan would bring, nobody would believe me. My father would have been gravely offended. He was, after all, a Reagan Republican. He despised criticism of corporations, believed that workers were somehow not important to the business equation, and once asserted in the wake of the Kathy Lee child labor scandal, that exploited children ought to be happy to have the chance to be exploited. When the Reebok board fired a bunch of workers and immediately rewarded themselves with bonuses that, all told, would have kept those workers employed for a period of years, I was disgusted. My father was appalled at my outburst. "When you say those things about business," he explained, "it hurts. I'm a businessman, and it hurts to hear my son talk about me that way."

Years later, I had a chance to ask him about that. "Did you pay your workers the least you could get away with?" No. He paid them over their market value. When one of his employees failed to get a job with the county because he was overqualified (on a voc-tech welding certificate) to hold a stop sign at a road-construction site, my dad gave him a raise; the guy was only looking for the road job because he needed the money. This doesn't sound like what I was criticizing. And he knew it then.

What finally cracked him, though, was when his business partners finally showed their business colors. The good people he had fallen in with yanked his share of the business right out from under him for nepotism. His marriage collapsed, he no longer had a buffer to numb him against the tiny daggers of his outlook. Instead of sinking into his bitterness, he retreated onto his boat, completely flipped out, and I have to tell you that the man I've known for the last five years is different from the transitional character I'd known for the eight or so before that, which is different from the person I'd known for the whole of my life before that.

One day, on an occasion that my father had come to town just because there was lots going on and he couldn't escape it, he came walking into the house with this look on his face. The first words out of his mouth were not, "Hello". They were not, "How could you knock her up!" He just looked at me, heaved a sigh, and said, "I owe you an apology. A big one."

The look on his face actually made me think he'd just run over my cat. I mean, he actually looked stricken.

But what he was apologizing for, it turns out, was a general body of rhetoric, the things he said to me when I was twelve or fifteen. He just looked at me, said, "This whole thing. These Enron guys. Wall Street. I didn't know. I didn't mean to be so ...."

And what the hell can you actually say? There is that part that appreciates the validation, but, for the most part, I'd put that behind me years before. I'd dropped much of my hard assessment of my father's outlook during the time he was flipping out on his boat because I knew that was exactly what he was dealing with. His whole world literally leapt in the air and landed on him like a heap of bricks.

The difference between then and now, the man of old and new, is simply that he no longer tries to justify deviations from his expressed character. Consider the paradox: the anticommunist father says, "Do you want to be able to just worry about yourself? Or do you want to have to worry about everyone else?" And then the child is sent off to church to study the Bible and learn concepts like, "God first, others second, self third", and why we are our brothers' keepers. Dad vs. God? Hmm ... and it was probably a lucky thing (for him) that American Christians generally don't like to remind that one of Communism's most famous slogans can be found in the Bible, and attributed to Jesus Christ. (Seriously, "from each, to each" was one of my father's biggest complaints about Communism.)

What's funny is that I've rejected Christianity and would like to dissolve the Communist Party in the U.S., while my father has rejected the ferocious capitalism of his former outlook. We both, however, accept "from each, to each", and there is a reason why.

That reason is almost a cornerstone of individual outlook. It treads directly on the notion of empathy v. envy.

I would assert that the difference coincides strongly with how one would answer an abstract question about the individual and society. Do individuals exist for the benefit of society? No. Does society exist for the benefit of individuals? It would seem that our species has selected naturally as such. Therefore, how does the individual stand in relation to society?

Many of the cynics who run with the "envy" model tend toward libertarian political arguments that would rather tear away at liberalism and demean notions of civility because they perceive civilized society as oppressive against them as individuals. These include the ardent capitalists, the absolutely freaky portion of gun owners who won't be satisfied until we're all packing heat, the warmongers, and, strangely, a portion of Christianity. At least, that's what it looks like in the U.S. These are the people who want the roads, but don't want to pay for them, who want the military budget, but who blame Democrats for taxes. They despise the homeless and the needy, would seek a Spartan revival. Yet, for some reason, these people tend to want to be thought of as virtuous; they are offended if one points out Sparta, or asserts a lack of compassion. Their assertions tend toward a relationship in which the individual owes little or nothing to society or their fellow human being.

The "empathy" model, one with which I'm personally more familiar, looks at a symbiotic relationship between the individual and society. We recognize at some level that society has a certain evolutionary value, and also that society does not work without the willing participation of its members. We recognize at some level that no story ever begins; it's merely a point of marking an advent that is not arbitrary. This, for instance, is why the less intelligent the criminal is, the more sympathy we have. We recognize that society demands certain outcomes; as long as we run this pseudo-capitalist global economy in which we starve people in order to add another zero to the end of a Western CEO's bank balance, in which over a billion people live without regular potable water because it's just not profitable to get them clean water, where we spend enough on wars we choose to initiate to bring tremendous change to societies at home and abroad, there will always be hungry people, there will always be desperate poverty, and there will always be stupid wars and stupid crime.

One way of looking at it would be to consider an essay by Melissa McEwan about why rape jokes aren't funny:

One of their guests, a man called Homeless Charlie, says, “I’ll tell you what—what’s that George Bush bitch, um, Rice…? Condoleezza Rice? … I’d love to fuck that bitch dead, man,” at which point the rest of the studio erupts into laughter. Homeless Charlie says again, “I’ll fuck that bitch to death,” to which Opie/Anthony reply, “I just imagine the horror in Condoleezza Rice’s face—” [uproarious laughter and interjection “When she realizes what’s going on!”] “—as you’re just like holding her down and fucking her.” More uproarious laughter, prompting Homeless Charlie to continue: “Punch her all in the fucking face—shut up, bitch!” Says Opie/Anthony: “That’s exactly what I meant!” [raucous laughter] ....

.... Honestly, I’m not sure I can accurately convey how deeply upsetting this clip is. It pisses me off to no fucking end—I can feel the anger twisting in my gut and curling its tendrils around my ribs like its own seething entity—but it also frightens me. The first time I listened to it, goosebumps raised across my flesh and the hairs stood up on the back of my neck. The hatred of women is palpable; the urge to dominate and destroy. Fuck that bitch to death ....

.... Naturally, I’ll be called a humorless feminist. Fine. If not laughing at a bunch of men sitting around talking about fucking women to death makes me a humorless feminist, then I wear the badge proudly—because I’m not just a humorless feminist; I’m a bitch who was nearly fucked to death. Isn’t that just fucking hilarious?

I’m a bitch who tore out her fingernails by the roots in the carpet trying to crawl away from someone who nearly fucked me to death. I’m a bitch whose face was smashed against a stone fireplace because I fought back, leaving me groggy and bleeding from one end—and with a permanently chipped tooth as a souvenir—while I got torn apart at the other. I’m a bitch who was left lying in a pool of her own blood, which I later cleaned up so my parents wouldn’t find out, because I was 16 years old and scared and ashamed and grew up in a culture that tells bitches who nearly get fucked to death that it’s their fault. Isn’t that just fucking hilarious?


("Rape is Hilarious")

The question is one of reactions. Does one understand what such humor can do to rape survivors? Generally, no, unless you've been there, so a better question is, Does one care? Are you one who actually enjoys agitating the scars of suffering for your own humor? What? You're not guilty of that? You're just making a joke? They need to grow up, get over it, move on with life?

If it was your mother, would you accept the implication that she deserved it, she needed it, and she should be thankful?

The thing is that many people separate from society at this point. If we all snuck over to the Vietnam vet's house and set off a bunch of explosions that caused him to flash back and flip out, would it be hilarious?

I run in a circle that makes some pretty hard jokes. But we all have certain signals, usually a sound--a variation on clearing one's throat or coughing--that lets our mates know when they're in difficult territory. Now, I can talk race politics with the black man. I can criticize the "black community". But the one thing I'm not going to do is ask him why the nigger crossed the road.

Is it really oppressive and violative that we are expected to be polite, or at least allow people a minimum of human dignity? I mean, think about it: You're violated because people don't appreciate that you went out of your way to ridicule and demean the survivor of a horrible event? We're supposed to fear for our sons and daughters because there are people out there who want to rape them, but after they're raped, we're should make jokes about it?

Is there no difference between cracking a joke among men over a bong hit and getting paid to broadcast it over the airwaves to millions?

Can people really not tell the difference?

Now take that example and start pulling back to a wider angle. Because for some people, such specific ridicule, such cruelty, is perfectly within their right. For some people, to go out of one's way to be cruel is their right. To hurt people for laughs is a right.

This idea does not fit well with the empathy model. Practically speaking, we see what happens when feelings start getting trampled left and right. The resulting chaos is, generally, never good for society unless we want to get into an obscure and complicated (and, seemingly, stupid) debate about whether it is best to control the population with, say, birth control, or wars. Should we control the population by not adding to it, or by proactively subtracting from it?

While the empirical outlook is about all we have that is real, the practical shortcomings of empiricism and the apparently impervious illusion of life and civilization make certain demands of people. Everybody will accept that sacrifices and compromises are necessary. A major practical difference is the form of obligation and the identity of the obliged.

We see this across the political spectrum in the United States.
• Some express that equality means that one group (e.g. traditionalists) ought to be able to demand compromises of another (e.g. homosexuals) so that we might all be equal (e.g. traditionalists have the power to dictate homosexuals' legal status).

• The bus is the favorite mode of mass transportation among Seattle residents who do not ride the bus. (People who complain about traffic but will not use public transportation are also those who vote to keep public transportation so undesirable.)

• Many of those folks will also complain about carpooling. And yet, at a time when oil prices are skyrocketing and environmental considerations suggest strongly the need for change, these folks will do their part by putting a yellow ribbon magnet on the back of their single-occupancy gas-guzzler.

• There is some degree of correlation between those who own guns to protect themselves, and those who vote for conditions that actually help raise the crime rate.​

The list goes on. Free speech? ("My First Amendment right is violated until he is silenced!") Education? ("My religious outlook, although scientifically untestable, should be considered a science!")

There is a curious correlation, as well, within the "envy" model, of the ideas that there is a standard of human dignity, and that the individuals who apply the envy model are entitled to decide what that standard is, and, thus, who gets to be considered human.

And there's a big indicator right there: with the envy model, the cutoff for who gets to be human seems to occur somewhere within the species. Among the empathy model, we're not so sure where that line occurs. Some primates, for instance, come damn close to qualifying. To the other, we're not sure what that means. Bringing primates into society seemed to inflict suffering that verged on emotional. Some do visualize, fantasize. This is unsettling inasmuch as I can't figure out what it means. There are others, though, who just don't care; if the gender of your sexual partner makes you subhuman, the bonobos and chimps haven't a chance.
 
I hope Tiassa's rants haven't pushed people away from discussing this somewhat important issue.

Is it enough just to say or claim that one is "compassionate" and "empathetic"? Or is there some real life action that must take place?

And if someone just says or claims to be compassionate, to care for others, and does nothing at all to help anyone, what good does that do anyone?

Or have people become so brainwashed, so politically correct, that they feel that, even if they don't give a shit, they still must make the claim and pretend, or risk social ostracism? Like, ...how many of y'all would be buddies with someone who was not compassionate, and was willing to say so? And, for that matter, how many friends do you think that guy would have?

Nope, I think it's mostly all a fuckin' lie that most people tell just to fit into society. Oh, sure, I think there are a few compassionate people, but not very fuckin' many!!

Baron Max
 
Or have people become so brainwashed, so politically correct, that they feel that, even if they don't give a shit, they still must make the claim and pretend, or risk social ostracism? Like, ...how many of y'all would be buddies with someone who was not compassionate, and was willing to say so? And, for that matter, how many friends do you think that guy would have?
Now it's making sense - these guys need to find a reason they have no friends.

It's because of the extraordinary hypnotic ability of the propagandists of "compassion".

As another advance in understanding, friendship itself is revealed to be based on lies, and all the community structures of mutual support and all of the societal norms of kind and fair dealing everywhere are based on illusion.

Very, very durable illusion, however. Useful illusion, maybe ?
 
Now it's making sense - these guys need to find a reason they have no friends.

It's because of the extraordinary hypnotic ability of the propagandists of "compassion".

As another advance in understanding, friendship itself is revealed to be based on lies, and all the community structures of mutual support and all of the societal norms of kind and fair dealing everywhere are based on illusion.

Very, very durable illusion, however. Useful illusion, maybe ?

I'm curious ...are you taking the stance of "For the Greater Good"? Because that's what it sounds like to me. If so, then I don't necessarily disagree.

But then I also am a proponent of individual rights and freedoms. How do those two philosophies work together? And for me, that's the kicker in it all ..you can't have it both ways. If you try, then it's a simple case of some people trying to tell others how to live and what to do ...which is the limiting of individual rights. How far do we go? And who decides?

Baron Max
 
Baron Max said:

But then I also am a proponent of individual rights and freedoms. How do those two philosophies work together?

The central issue there is the relationship between the fact of society and the justification for it. In other words, Why do we bother with this whole civilized society thing?

I have my answers. You might well come to develop some of your own. But the extreme rhetorical end, quite literally, is the idea of your right to, say, free speech being so important that nobody else is allowed to speak.

Society doesn't work that way. It falls apart if we put such stresses on it.

Another way to look at it is capitalism. Business leaders will pitch the line about the role of business in community, and it's a decent sell. After all, we do need a distribution mechanism. We do need a system of exchange. But the anthropological value is lost when business is reduced to an analog of warfare. Here the extreme rhetorical end is the idea of haves and have-nots. In Seattle, 85% of the radio stations are owned by four companies. That number might have shifted since I heard the stat. Somewhere in the midwest, there was once an occasion that there were no locally-operated radio stations; everything was piped out of a ClearChannel office in another city. When the local authorities issued a tornado warning, none of the radio stations carried it because there were no local DJs or agents to break the signal and broadcast the warning. This did contribute to the death toll.

Consolidation is one thing, but it's not supposed to bring this outcome.

It's a balance, Max, and the fulcrum is the role within or relationship to civilized society. That's why free speech doesn't include the right to threaten someone, nor the right to yell "Fire!" in a crowded place and initiate a perilous stampede or panic.
 
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