The idea comes from the latest finds of 33,000 year old canine remains which show early signs of domestication Ancient dog skull unearthed in Siberia
Elfin Strategy In All Mammals Makes Us Appear Babyish?
- Thread starter common_sense_seeker
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A Russian scientist did some experiments on domesticating foxes..selective breeding only based on tameness:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox
Domestication of the horse likely followed a similar path and I have remarked elsewhere that humans are among the stronger influences of change because of the selective pressures that we bring to bear.
Prior to mechanization, the domestic horse was the engine of progress and the number of regional breeds and diversity was far greater than today, when the horse has been largely replaced by machinery.
Back to the foxes, though the same does apply to most other breeds that I have observed, disposition of individuals is a highly hereditary factor, which is reinforced by phenotype (external influences of one's conditioning and environment) and thus one can influence these factors by selective breeding over a mere few generations. Certain physical aspects may also be closely affiliated with these markers and will carry over as well, as the research has noted.
Prior to mechanization, the domestic horse was the engine of progress and the number of regional breeds and diversity was far greater than today, when the horse has been largely replaced by machinery.
Back to the foxes, though the same does apply to most other breeds that I have observed, disposition of individuals is a highly hereditary factor, which is reinforced by phenotype (external influences of one's conditioning and environment) and thus one can influence these factors by selective breeding over a mere few generations. Certain physical aspects may also be closely affiliated with these markers and will carry over as well, as the research has noted.
MacGyver: That's the first interesting post you've ever made. Thanks for the info
scheherazade: Do you think that certain humans could also adopt this strategy inherently of appearing child-like? The idea came from a comedian who was on tv saying that his on screen best buddy is at home with his new baby and that he's now "feeling broody" but only really goes for "elfin type" of females. The interviewer then commented on his own elf-like features which kind of made sense.
scheherazade: Do you think that certain humans could also adopt this strategy inherently of appearing child-like? The idea came from a comedian who was on tv saying that his on screen best buddy is at home with his new baby and that he's now "feeling broody" but only really goes for "elfin type" of females. The interviewer then commented on his own elf-like features which kind of made sense.
Is it a result of the formation of intellectual curiosity in our behaviour, common to all mammals perhaps?
I would suggest that our species certainly does know how to capitalize on the attraction of our kind for child-like features, or the 'big-eyed' look.
It might be helpful to examine why many find this look so appealing, and I would suggest that the main attraction is that these features do not immediately present as 'dangerous'. Quite the opposite, persons and creatures with these juvenile features often bring out an innate protective instinct in those who are more capable and mature, and some individuals will utilize their 'cuteness' to gain personal advantage.
I'm sure that some will recognize this 'pixie haircut' from the classic films section.
Then there is 'the School girl look' which has some disturbingly innocent through to bizarrely exotic permutations.
I would be remiss if I left out the following image, perhaps the most dangerous underestimation of all.
Yes, good points, but I'm still interested in the type of intelligence that intense curiosity leads to perhaps. These 'cute' tv stars and comedians must also be very smart if they're smiling and happy all the time with lots of people admiration. Is this idea transferable to the domestication of wolves by any chance I wonder? It's not so much that these wolves were 'less scared', just more 'intellectually curious' which leads to a big social advantage, for the ones that survive anyway. See what I mean?
I'm not quite certain if I'm grasping your your intent, yet it certainly is advantageous for any species that captures our attention and support, and we do respond more positively to juvenile features. In breeding horses selectively, the main traits I have sought in addition to soundness and conformation are good disposition and intelligence. As disposition and intelligence seem to demonstrate inheritable tendency, I am presently raising the most interesting young gelding, the result of two decades of research and field trials. That others (who are objective and educated on the topic) are 'wowed' by this fellow demonstrates that it is not just a case of blind affection on my part.
Sounds fun, I used to work with horses a bit when I was in my early thirties.I'm not quite certain if I'm grasping your your intent, yet it certainly is advantageous for any species that captures our attention and support, and we do respond more positively to juvenile features. In breeding horses selectively, the main traits I have sought in addition to soundness and conformation are good disposition and intelligence. As disposition and intelligence seem to demonstrate inheritable tendency, I am presently raising the most interesting young gelding, the result of two decades of research and field trials. That others (who are objective and educated on the topic) are 'wowed' by this fellow demonstrates that it is not just a case of blind affection on my part.
Our species has an interesting relationship with the wolf, and the Tlingit people divided along clan lines of Wolf and Raven. (I was engaged to the son of a chief of the Tlingits long ago, and so was an honorary member of the Wolf clan if this liason was to proceed.
)http://library.thinkquest.org/11313/Early_History/Native_Alaskans/tlingit.html
Attempts have been made in the past to 'domesticate' the wolf and to interbreed it with sled dogs because of it's strength and endurance in the wild. From what I have read in the past, these experiments were not greatly successful as the hybrids were of variable temperament and the build of the wolf is not well suited to labor in harness.
My family was offered a wolf cub by the Conservation Officer to raise in captivity when I was a child, and my step-father, a knowledgeable man in the ways of animals and the wilderness, wisely declined the offer. The cub would grow up to be a wolf, a stranger in a strange land, and that runs contrary to it's nature, IMO.
The wild ones are becoming very accustomed to human intervention and for that reason we have foxes and coyotes trotting the streets of Whitehorse, Yukon, as blithely as if they were stray dogs, and more human/bear encounters resulting in injury to humans, and usually death for the bear involved.
Sorry. I ran off on a tangent.
I meant to ask, what is your interest in domesticating wolves, or have I misunderstood your post entirely?
That's very interesting reading schez, it sounds as though you've had a fascinating life.
My interest is to do with the idea of cryptids for one thing, animals which are smart enough to remain hidden from mainstream science. The other is the idea of an evolutionary type of male and female which are attracted to each others dominant characteristics of curiosity and youthfulness, in humans and also potentially in cryptids. That must sound a bit weird at a guess. Am I right?
My interest is to do with the idea of cryptids for one thing, animals which are smart enough to remain hidden from mainstream science. The other is the idea of an evolutionary type of male and female which are attracted to each others dominant characteristics of curiosity and youthfulness, in humans and also potentially in cryptids. That must sound a bit weird at a guess. Am I right?
Living in a sparsely populated region of the country, I have had various opportunities to observe both wild and domesticated animals in settings more conducive to their natural behavior and it has been an interesting experience. A great deal of what has been considered 'instinctual' is actually learned behavior. As example, horses, being a herd animal, learn how to socialize and discipline their young from experienced herd members. Where this experience is lacking, they are at a disadvantage, especially with their first youngster.
I did a bit of research on cryptids, and looked at the list of same on Wikipedia at the following link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cryptids
None of these species are familiar to me. Perhaps you could expand on which crytids are of particular interest to you?
Also, can you better define what you mean by 'an evolutionary type of male and female which are attracted to each others dominant characteristics of curiosity and youthfulness'?
It is quite plausible that humans are attracted to similar features and traits in each other as one of their selection biases.
Your interests are somewhat different from the mainstream, but I wouldn't consider them weird.
I would suggest that our species certainly does know how to capitalize on the attraction of our kind for child-like features, or the 'big-eyed' look.
It might be helpful to examine why many find this look so appealing, and I would suggest that the main attraction is that these features do not immediately present as 'dangerous'. Quite the opposite, persons and creatures with these juvenile features often bring out an innate protective instinct in those who are more capable and mature, and some individuals will utilize their 'cuteness' to gain personal advantage.
I'm sure that some will recognize this 'pixie haircut' from the classic films section.
Then there is 'the School girl look' which has some disturbingly innocent through to bizarrely exotic permutations.
I would be remiss if I left out the following image, perhaps the most dangerous underestimation of all.
whydya post little Mikey like that . That gave Me a funny feeling my dear . A little nervous to tell you truth . That be million dollar question " can you pull the trigger .
I didn't think I could but in the end I learned that I could . Only one person in the world called me out on it . 2012 site guy. He knows what I did , but he also knows I take responsibility and if it goes to shit I will and am the hang Man . The buck stops here cause I did it and I admit it to anyone that figures out what I did . One out of 7billion know my crime . That is pretty good thievery diamond stealing if you ask Me. I ain't telling you what I did in so many words for fear of the hang man just taking Me on the spot before I get my House in order.
O.K. I am baby like so sue Me . I don't think a judge is going to give you any of Me money for it , You will just be draining tax payer dollars
That should be a 357 revolver with a long barrel in Mikey's hand . All the other kids better run better run . Faster than ? I can't make out the words exactly in that song . Anybody hear that song before ? I got to find out what the name of that song is . Love it Love it love it
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Hello Me-Ki-Gal,
In the broadest terms, we are discussing on this thread whether animals and humans select for the 'baby-faced' or juvenile look, and how this may work to their advantage.
The picture of the child with the gun was my point that when faced with a child or a woman with a gun, most of us are placed at a disadvantage, because we are conditioned to regard juvenile features as not to be feared.
I have observed both males and females with juvenile features often play them up to gain the advantages of sympathy, assistance and protection, when they present themselves as being in need of same.
Persons of more ordinary build and feature will more often find themselves resolving their own challenges, in my observation and experience.
In the broadest terms, we are discussing on this thread whether animals and humans select for the 'baby-faced' or juvenile look, and how this may work to their advantage.
The picture of the child with the gun was my point that when faced with a child or a woman with a gun, most of us are placed at a disadvantage, because we are conditioned to regard juvenile features as not to be feared.
I have observed both males and females with juvenile features often play them up to gain the advantages of sympathy, assistance and protection, when they present themselves as being in need of same.
Persons of more ordinary build and feature will more often find themselves resolving their own challenges, in my observation and experience.
I think I'll quit while I'm ahead then! Thanks for making this thread interesting schez and best of luck with your breeding programmeYour interests are somewhat different from the mainstream, but I wouldn't consider them weird.
What?
Just start a topic and then let it fade into obscurity? :bugeye:
Mutters to herself as she wanders off to see what else may be transpiring in virtual reality.....
Just start a topic and then let it fade into obscurity? :bugeye:
Mutters to herself as she wanders off to see what else may be transpiring in virtual reality.....
Sorry schez. I just thought what it might be. I'm probably relating to my own experience of being an 'elfin' type but with a not-so-good with people personality. You wouldn't get this with selective breeding, but it would be a feature of natural selection to some degree. These types would then have distinctive traits which would then be influential to intelligent species which were society based. This would apply to humans certainly, but what about the more-than-dog-or-cat intelligent cryptids? This would also apply if these critters had a similar structure of society, which would be advantageous for survival as a secret and hidden species. See what I'm getting at? It's a stretch of the imagination perhaps.
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