Electric cars are a pipe dream

[Syzygys]

[ENC][/ENC]
This is completely untrue.

Sure it is. We had EVs with 100 miles range 100 years ago. But by yesterday I meant this decade. As you mentioned the EV1, it already had 100 miles range, so in the last 8-10 years I don;t see any improvement. And that was with the old battery, not with the Li-ion...

late 1990's the General Motors EV1 Gen II running on NiMH batteries had a range of 100-140 miles and an artificially limited top speed of 80 mph.

Exactly. How it is worse than EVs what you can buy today? It isn't!! Thus there was no practical improvement!

In the last decade we've seen a large number of new EV's produced, arguably the most impressive of which is the Tesla Roadster

Holy Fuck! If somebody once more brings the Tesla up I will start to shot people!!! One more time for the dull:

1. Its battery's size is twice as big as the other Evs, thus of course, the range is twice bigger. Fucking DUH!
2. It is prohibitingly EXPENSIVE!! Everyone can make a good car for lots of money, we are talking about a solution for the masses...
3. It is a 2 seats sportscar, try to fit in it 5 people.
4. It isn't even mass produced (1000 so far) it is a niche market...

But there is no doubt that it has a significantly greater range than any production EV that has come before it.

Its battery alone costs 30K dollars, the same price what other mass produced EVs cost. If you put 5 EVs' batteries on a truck, you will get a 500 miles range too...

And for the last time, sure batteries improved (juice power 7 times in 100 years) but cars have more features, thus the juice needed for other things then just to move the car...

Bottomline for the last time: in the last decade mass produced EVs haven't improved anything compared to GM;s EV1 and Toyota's RAV4.

It is quite possible that the speed of improvement in technology actually slowing, just like in sport records, until something revolutionary new comes..

 

[iceaura]

Holy Fuck! If somebody once more brings the Tesla up I will start to shot people!!! One more time for the dull:

1. Its battery's size is twice as big as the other Evs, thus of course, the range is twice bigger. Fucking DUH!
2. It is prohibitingly EXPENSIVE!! Everyone can make a good car for lots of money, we are talking about a solution for the masses...
3. It is a 2 seats sportscar, try to fit in it 5 people.
4. It isn't even mass produced (1000 per year) it is a niche market...

None of your objections to the Tesla matter, in this discussion. The reason people keep bringing it up is that it contradicts some of your other assertions about EVs.

Of course it is a sports car, and high performance sports cars are a niche market, and hand built niche market cars are expensive. But the technology it employs, and even better stuff, is available right now for mass produced commuter vehicles, and it beats the current crop of IC cars in several important respects.

For example, the oil change I have scheduled for tomorrow morning would be gone the way of the manual choke and starting ether on cold mornings. Probably need a new air filter, and the mechanical friction brakes sound funny.

The oily mess and exhaust fumes, mechanical fragility, poor dollar mileage, and constant maintenance demands of this outdated setup are probably tolerated from habit - people are used to this shit. That doesn't make it superior.

 

[Repo Man]

I'm enjoying this thread very much.

 

[Repo Man]

None of your objections to the Tesla matter, in this discussion. The reason people keep bringing it up is that it contradicts some of your other assertions about EVs.

Of course it is a sports car, and high performance sports cars are a niche market, and hand built niche market cars are expensive. But the technology it employs, and even better stuff, is available right now for mass produced commuter vehicles, and it beats the current crop of IC cars in several important respects.

For example, the oil change I have scheduled for tomorrow morning would be gone the way of the manual choke and starting ether on cold mornings. Probably need a new air filter, and the mechanical friction brakes sound funny.

The oily mess and exhaust fumes, mechanical fragility, poor dollar mileage, and constant maintenance demands of this outdated setup are probably tolerated from habit - people are used to this shit. That doesn't make it superior.

Did you see where Tesla and Toyota are forming a joint venture? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37358614/ns/business-us_business I think some very good things could come from this.

 

[Rav]

Sure it is. We had EVs with 100 miles range 100 years ago.

No we didn't.

But by yesterday I meant this decade. As you mentioned the EV1, it already had 100 miles range, so in the last 8-10 years I don;t see any improvement. And that was with the old battery, not with the Li-ion...

The Tesla Roadster is a huge improvement. Did you hear that? TESLA ROADSTER. This EV is going to remain in this thread no matter how much you don't want it to. So get over it.

One more time for the dull:

1. Its battery's size is twice as big as the other Evs, thus of course, the range is twice bigger. Fucking DUH!

It's bigger because it can be bigger. It can be bigger because it's lighter. It's lighter because it uses lithium ion cells. It's quite a bit more impressive than simply slapping in twice the number of NiMH cells, which you couldn't do because they'd add far too much weight to the car. Energy density is kinda the whole point.

And for the last time, sure batteries improved (juice power 7 times in 100 years) but cars have more features, thus the juice needed for other things then just to move the car...

The "juice" that is needed to power everything else in an EV is so negligible compared to what is required to turn the wheels that this simply doesn't factor into the discussion in any significant way at all.

Bottomline for the last time: in the last decade mass produced EVs haven't improved anything compared to GM;s EV1 and Toyota's RAV4.

The "bottom line" is that technology is improving. We can see that when we look at the TESLA ROADSTER. It shows us what to expect from the mass produced EV's of tomorrow.

It is quite possible that the speed of improvement in technology actually slowing, just like in sport records, until something revolutionary new comes..

Interesting what you said there.

 

[Rav]

Sure it is. We had EVs with 100 miles range 100 years ago.

No we didn't.

I've decided to hammer this home right now rather than wait for you to pull something like the 100-mile Fritchle Electric out of your hat. A truly impressive EV for it's day, but it simply doesn't compare to anything modern. I mean seriously, if we're going to define range as the maximum distance an EV can travel over level terrain at a relatively slow speed, then we have EV's today that have a range of 600+ miles. They are not production vehicles of course, but so what? It's not like any serious R&D went into it. The record of 623.76 miles set recently was in a Daihatsu Mira gas to EV conversion, using a 74 kilowatt-hour lithium ion battery.

You see, if you're going to say that the Fritchle Electric has a range of 100 miles, then you are required to concede that the Tesla Roadster has a range of 313 miles and that we do indeed have EV's with a range of over 600 miles. But the Fritchle Electric wouldn't have anything close to a 100 mile range if it was driven on today's roads, in today's conditions, by today's drivers, nor would any other EV of it's era. But guess what? Today's EV's do, and more.

 

[Syzygys]

None of your objections to the Tesla matter

Haven't we established that you understand shit in this thread?

[shot down]

 

[Syzygys]

No we didn't.

You might want to click on the link in the second post and educate yourself. Yes, there were EVs before 1910 that were able to go 100 miles. They didn't go fast,. but that wasn't the point... Since you are lazy:

The Tesla Roadster is a huge improvement. Did you hear that?

nah-nah-nah, can't hear you. What did you say? If we put Li-ion battery into the Toyota RAV4 and specially if we double the size than it could go 300 miles? Simply genius!!!

I will do the math for you. If you buy 3 30K cars instead of one 100K car, you triple the range!!! Would you believe it????

It's bigger because it can be bigger.

Still doesn't fit 2 parents, grandma with 2 kids and 3 suitcases!!! The horror!!!

The "bottom line" is that technology is improving.

I agree. I already ordered an EV for my not-yet-born great grand kids... By the time they are driving age, there is going to be something on the market for them.

Oh speaking of the Tes... oh I can't mention it, anyhow, they will stop making it in 2011 and the newer version won't be aviable until 2013, thus there will be no production in 2012. Maybe they are betting on the world ending...

There you have your niche sports car. It won't even be made for a full year. Now let's get back to this thread in 2013, shall we???

 

[Syzygys]

Oh I got it!!! You guys are saying that in the future everyone will be buzzing around in sexy, very expensive, 2 seater sports cars!!! Will it come with a red head or a blonde?

I guess I am finally justified. It IS a pipedream...

P.S.: The only reason you guys keep bringing up the Tes.... (I can't say it), because right now there is NOTHING on the market that is cheap, mass produced, practical and a real improvement over the EVs of 10 years ago...Period...

 

[Rav]

You might want to click on the link in the second post and educate yourself. Yes, there were EVs before 1910 that were able to go 100 miles. They didn't go fast,. but that wasn't the point... Since you are lazy:

I think you missed the part where I mentioned the 100-mile Fritchle Electric before you did.

Aside from all that, I've decided that you're an idiot. A direct consequence of this is that I am not going to be able to bring myself to waste any more time responding to your posts.

 

[Syzygys]

I think you missed the part where I mentioned the 100-mile Fritchle Electric before you did.

Oh, so you contradicted yourself? I guess you didn't have a point then...

Aside from all that, I've decided that you're an idiot.

People who are unable to argue against facts presented by me often feel the same way, so it is kind of a given and understood. Don't feel so bad about yourself.

On the other hand I came to similar conclusion about yourself, because you haven't been able to present a decent argument for EVs of today.

Maybe we will get back to the topic in the next 10-15 years, when EVs WON'T be pipedreams anymore...

Until then, here is MY prefered EV:

It only uses 1.7 Gigawatts

 

[kororoti]

P.S.: Why in this thread everybody is talking about the future's big expectations instead of what we already have???

As long they're realistic expectations, the future is the only basis this decision should be made on. Indeed it is the only basis that any economic decision should ever be made on.

Holy Fuck! If somebody once more brings the Tesla up I will start to shot people!!! One more time for the dull:

1. Its battery's size is twice as big as the other Evs, thus of course, the range is twice bigger. Fucking DUH!
2. It is prohibitingly EXPENSIVE!! Everyone can make a good car for lots of money, we are talking about a solution for the masses...
3. It is a 2 seats sportscar, try to fit in it 5 people.
4. It isn't even mass produced (1000 so far) it is a niche market...

1) - Nothing prevents other cars from doubling their battery sizes. Setting a "battery can only be size x" ground rule just seems kind of ridiculous to me. Maybe we should assume from the outset that all viable EV's will be minivans (in order to have a big enough chassis to support a very large battery.)

2) - This is because it is being made by hand instead of mass produced. In a large scale production scenario, that price would certainly drop, and drop by a lot.

3) - I guess we'll just have to wait until they come out with their Model S, and see what it can do then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Motors#Model_S

4) - Is there a reason to doubt that it is capable of being mass produced, or that mass producing it would be beyond current technology?

 

[Syzygys]

First, I would like to thank Kororoti, he is the only one who makes fairly decent arguments and doesn't live in a dream future.

As long they're realistic expectations, the future is the only basis this decision should be made on.

Alright, bringing up Tes.... is NOT realistic for the purpose of this thread.

1) - Nothing prevents other cars from doubling their battery sizes.

Actually, some things do. It is like saying, hey we could put a 250 HP motor into a Geo Metro. It can be done, it is just not practical nor economical. So things that prevents doubling the battery are:

1. Practicality. Cars are designed for certain size, purpose, costumers. Messing with the battery results with a different car. If the car was designed for citycommuters who drive less than 100 miles a day, there is no point in having a bigger battery.
2. Price. Battery is the biggest cost in EVs. If you double that, well, you rise the price enormously, and not necessery make the car more desired.
3. Size. The average car is fairly the same size. Costumers might don't want to have a pick up where all the backspace is occupied by a huge battery.
We want room for 4-5 adults with luggages and still keep the same size.
4. Economy. Increased battery size increases weight, what might not be desirable...

2) - This is because it is being made by hand instead of mass produced. In a large scale production scenario, that price would certainly drop, and drop by a lot.

Might be or might be not.What if price only drops by 30%, a 70K sportscar is still overpriced for the masses. hell even at 50K it is too expensive.
You can buy a very decent gasoline car under 20K. I think EVs for the masses shouldn't cost more than 30K...

3) - I guess we'll just have to wait until they come out with their Model S, and see what it can do then.

Even after the taxrebate it will still cost 50K, too much....

4) - Is there a reason to doubt that it is capable of being mass produced, or that mass producing it would be beyond current technology?

Ask the same about Ferraris and Lambourghinis. There is a reason they are not mass produced. First, it wasn't made for the masses, second, quality, third, well you got the picture...

So why don't we just forget about the Tes.... and you try to convince me about other new EVs why I should love them instead of the RAV4????

 

[hypewaders]

My next new car: Nissan Leaf

 

[iceaura]

Actually, some things do. It is like saying, hey we could put a 250 HP motor into a Geo Metro. It can be done, it is just not practical nor economical

On the other hand, your argument against using the Tesla, as a counterexample to basically every assertion you've made here, is that because Humvees have big engines and get lousy gas mileage, Geo Metros cannot be built.

And this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car? never existed.

 

[Syzygys]

http://eestorbatteries.com/index.html

Unfortunatelly, it is just hype, no practical product behind it....

 

[Spud Emperor]

i LOOKED AT THE SPECS FOR THE LEAF. i COULDN'T FIND ANY INFO ON HOW MANY KwH WERE REQUIRED TO FULLY CHARGE.
aNY IDEAS?

 

[ElectricFetus]

8 hours to charge at 220/240 volts at 40 amps is 76.8kWh which is double the battery capacity of 42kWh, but utilizing the full 40 amps rating is not actually possible. Their numbers are very rough estimates, for example trickle charging at 110/120V at 20 amps in 20 hours or 48kWh our 6kWh over the battery capacity.

http://eestorbatteries.com/index.html

Unfortunatelly, it is just hype, no practical product behind it....

Again we disagree: that is not hype, that is a complete and total scam!

 

[hypewaders]

@Spud Emporer Nissan has committed to the 100-mile range goal with customary or better acceleration like today. Because electric vehicle development can evolve more than the old drivetrain, cooling, and emissions- saddled cars, I expect Leaf will do better than 100 mph range, and of course that's without the little fuel-cell power-supply/cargo trailer is for out of town. In a pinch, you can rent the smallest Uhaul trailer, and rent an 6-kW portable generator you can find, throw in a boat fuel tank, and pollutey like it's 1999. The Leaf will keep getting extended range as batteries and fuel cells evolve. The car will still be practical (& moreso than any smoker) in at least 100 years.

the Leaf's front-mounted electric motor delivers 80 kW (107 horsepower) and a healthy 280 Nm of torque (208 pound-feet), and it promises brisk and silent off-the-line power, with acceleration from a stop comparable to that of the company's Infiniti G35. And as Nakamura-san noted, the Leaf has a top speed of over 140 km/h (87 mph).

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/08/01/2010-nissan-leaf-electric-car-in-person-in-depth-and-u-s-b/

48 lithium ion modules (each laptop-sized module is comprised of four magazine-sized cells) offers a number of charging strategies. To yield a full charge, a 200-volt, single-phase AC charger takes less than eight hours, and topping off the battery from a 100 volt single-phase standard home wall outlet will take somewhere around twice that time, so prospective Leafmakers would do well to get 220 volt hookup like their clothes dryer uses out in their garage.

 

[Syzygys]

The Leaf is finally a comparable EV to the RAV4. Although the comparison still prefers the Toyota. I have been planning a full comparison just got lazy a bit. If I have to choose today between those 2, I would still go with the RAV4... Now mind you, it came out a good 12 years earlier, and it is still better.

Range: both around 100 miles, no improvement there

Size: the RAV4 is an SUV, more comfortable with more cargo then the Nissan

Battery: the Nissan has the new Li-Ion 24 kW·h/90 kW, RAV4 NiMH 27 kWh

Charging: RAV4 5 hours, Leaf 20 and 8 hours or 30 minutes

Price: Leaf 32K, RAV4 N/A it was said to cost 80K for Toyota

It is hard to say how much the RAV4 would cost today, I am guessing under 40K. Some of those cars still running fine with 150K miles under their belts. If the newer NiMH battery were aviable (that Exxon so nicely took out of circulation) it would have a cheaper and better but non-Li-ion battery.

So what is the bottomline here? That 12 years of technological improvements didn't exactly result in a huge difference between 2 comparable EVs...

So where is the beef? Where is the revolutionary breakthrough? I believe in it when I drive it....

"In October 2009, ECD Ovonics announced that their next-generation NiMH batteries will provide specific energy and power that are comparable to those of lithium ion batteries at a cost that is significantly lower than the cost of lithium ion batteries."

P.S.: Somebody used computers as an analogy earlier for rapid improvement. I do remember my computer from 1998, sir, it can not be compared to the cheapest notebook of today....