Electric cars are a pipe dream

That's pretty rad.

Last year I read about a DARPA project to develop these big solar powered aircraft that would be able to stay airborne for years. They would be able to replace the functions of satellites as radio repeaters and intelligence gatherers, but with greater flexibility and for less money. One design was a large blimp but the other was a gigantic fixed wing like NASA's Helios.

Found a link: http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/DARPAs-Vulture-What-Goes-Up-Neednt-Come-Down-04852/
 
Yep, the tech is here now for solar drones to stay aloft indefinitely in summer; for manned sailplanes to take flight powered only by the sun on their hangar rooftops. And the technology is here right now for EVs to take to the highways using sustainable energy. Soon, our motion will require no foul-burning lotions. We're going to love our new Electra-glides and they will be much more fun and sexy than our primitive smokers (sorry, Harley).
 
Syzygys said:
I am in love with cars. It takes me EVERYWHERE, whenever I want, I don't have to schedule it or share it with other people. It is also called convenience...

You have to pry the steering wheel out of my cold dead hands... :)
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Unfortunately, that is the viewpoint of many Americans, even some who consider themselves green (and bought a prius or something). It's only convenient because we structured our communities so that they are unwalkable. This wasn't always the case, the small towns that conservatives love are disappearing, their stores boarded up because some big box outlet filled with Chinese products was allowed to undermine them. The really bad thing is that automobile dependence creates living situations that do not inspire the human soul. Sprawl creates depression. And poor people are forced to spend a huge part of their income on their cars.

ElectricFetus said:
Those lines are now too busy moving freight to move people in a timely manner, the only way trains for passengers will take off is if they are faster then cars, as in Europe and Japan passenger lines and cargo lines are strictly separated.



...



And you think steel tracks are cheaper, easier to maintain and more energy efficient?
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If it makes it easier for you, just think of train cars as the original electric car, one that doesn't need a battery.

hypewaders said:
...personal airplanes....
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Not practical transportation for the masses and therefore not relevant to this conversation.




I look forward to continuing and further exploring such freedom without fossil fuels, and I don't think it's an unrealistic expectation. The notion that personal mobility needs to be reduced for us to find our sustainable place as a species is to me a form of hopelessness and dangerous resignation. Throughout the petroleum era we've been harnessing energy in dirty ways, consuming it wastefully. Like at the frazzled end of any out-of-control party, it's time to clean up, and since the damage has been ginormous, now it's obviously time for us to figure out how to have our fun more responsibly. But it certainly doesn't mean our fun is done, or that we've had more than our share of it. We're just doing it wrong, that's all.
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We will be forced to use fossil fuels more efficiently, but at the same time, it is unrealistic to expect to run the Happy Motoring way of life will continue. It's an anachronism. That will become self-evident in the near future. If we wanted, for instance, to be free from foreign oil, we would need to reduce our consumption to 1970s levels.

Some people want for all of us to reduce our expectations. I think that's bullshit, and a vestige of superstitions about what the fates will allow. We were fated to be born and to die, but everything in between is entirely up to us.
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It's not a matter of what we want. This is the situation. You can sleepwalk into the future wearing blinders, or you can prepare for it. We as a nation are not preparing for it. We haven't even accepted reality. I hear it all the time, even among "progressives", that all we need is motherfucking electric cars, then we won't have to really change a thing except what product we buy. It's delusional.

So I refuse to forsake the freedom to move about the planet in very personal ways. I insist on earning and developing my means, privileges, and skills of mobility with ever more dedication and exuberance for as long as I physically and mentally can. I have confidence in human abilities to adapt- clean up, and thrive, and not only from an emotional standpoint:
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Of course, you have legs. The arrogance that billions of people can continue to drive around anywhere at whim is a product of 50 years of cheap oil. You have never known a time when our society was not growing industrially, and pumping out a huge variety of personal vehicles. You don't realize that this was an anomaly.

We are genetically programmed to adapt and thrive, and that is the self-reinforcing theme of the miracle of living, struggling, failing, adapting, laughing, and advancing intelligence and consciousness. We will continue to develop more resilience and balance as we develop our technologies and our mentalities and there is no point in allowing ourselves to be stunted by regressive notions like Luddism. The ecological and financial challenges before us are no more insurmountable than the threats to our existence that we have struggled mightily against since before we were even self-aware. Our destiny is not to become the befouler of nature, and snuff ourselves out in our own filth. Our destiny is to join with nature in a far-distant Big Bang of supreme consciousness, and if we succeed as Humans, we'll magnificently represent our home and ancestry at the very end of time.
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Yeah, we are great, but there is a difference between technology and energy. In the future, energy will be harder to come by, less convenient to use. The need for greater efficiency will require consolidation of transportation needs. Personal pods will be a luxury for the rich.

Is petroleum power sustainable? No. Is unrestricted human population growth sustainable? No. Are there alternatives? Yes. Is human progress, in living happier and more fulfilling lives in the future sustainable? Call me a dreamer, but this I believe is not only possible, but already written in our DNA.
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We ARE going to get there on bicycles. Or maybe sailing craft. The personal sailboad is quite realistic.


Deep breath. Take in a future ride; feel it; be in it. We can make all this happen. Because here comes the sun, like always, giving us life. We really can take real controls, and really fly just like we always really wanted- Free. (really)
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Being smarter about energy means using it sparingly. The techno-Utopia you envision might come about in a hundred years or so, but we are in for a long harsh time before that. The ending of the way of life Americans are used to will mean political turmoil all over the world. It means economic collapse (no more solar factories). It means a mad rush to take over the last remaining supplies in the Middle East (already begun). It means possible war between the major powers, with all it's subsequent ecological destruction. It means no more globalism, no more 3,000 mile supply chain, no more advanced materials available for personal use. It means more people will need to be involved in farming food locally. It means most of the service jobs that exist now will be gone. It's not a pretty picture. I hope it doesn't happen, but all sign point to peak oil being the precursor to a long difficult time for us.
 
http://www.petroholicsanonymous.org

I realize it's not very organized yet (the above link is dead for example) and it seems almost beyond our willpower- but we're all going to understand the imperative to kick the habit soon, and we're going to make changes. What won't change after petroleum is that we'll still enjoy and value freedom very much. All we really have to do is stop considering fossil fuels an irreplaceable source of energy, because that assumption is a dirty lie. Even the most prominent liars among us will be taking this to heart sooner rather than later.

Barack Obama (2006) said:
Saying that America is addicted to oil without following a real plan for energy independence is like admitting alcoholism and then skipping out on the 12-step program. It’s not enough to identify the challenge – we have to meet it.
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Yes, We Can, Mr. President: Lead, or get out of the blessed way.
 
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I would like to ask contributors to try to stay on the EV vs. hybrid vs. cheapo gas debate line. That is what the thread is about... (I know because I started it)

In this thread I am really not interested in flying solar planes and such. If you guys want to discuss similar technologies, start a new thread. Thanks.

ElectricFetus said:
Yeah that why he turned the Chevy Volt
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Excuse me??? The Volt is a plug-in HYBRID and I thought we are talking about EVs. When did any big automaker say they want to make fully EVs (that is electric vehicle) by the millions??? I guess never...
 
Sorry, S- That is a reasonable request on your part. I've become very air-travel biased, and I keep recalling that aeronautical technology has often payed dividends in automotive tech: The demands of power & strength / weight in skyfaring have long produced technologies that also excel on the ground. Car culture has long had lofty aeronautical inspirations, both practical and aesthetic.

I've made my point I think, that since we're now energetically learning to fly on batteries, we can certainly expect that we'll manage also to trundle around on the surface like ants (that's what it looks like from above) busily applying the same tech we can fly with to a more limited use (as if only the Queen and her suitors are worthy of flying over and beyond the Colony and its busy designated paths).

So I'll respect your wishes Syzygys, and try hard to plant all my feet on the ground, and to devote my further contributions here exclusively to pondering ground-bound EVs that shall never sprout wings. I'll beg your pardon if I pan my eyes upward again, when we tangle antennae in heavy and short-sighted traffic. My wings are tucked, but I'm happy to visit because it's a fine thread you've made here.
 
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spidergoat said:
The hand-wringing over battery technology is fucking retarted. I don't have much hope for a nation that can't even reproduce the advanced transportation technologies we enjoyed in the 19th century.
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In the late 19th and early 20th century there was, for a time, a great demand for electrical transportation. It seemed like that was going to be the future until internal combustion engines came along. But can you imagine the EV's we'd have on the roads today if that hadn't happened? If every R&D dollar spent by every car manufacturer for the last 100 years had been poured into designing more efficient and more driveable EV's? Of course we probably would have destroyed the planet just as badly trying to generate enough electricity to keep all those batteries charged, but it would certainly have been interesting to see.

What some people don't seem to remember, or fail to appreciate, is the true significance of the role that demand plays in the development of certain technologies. In the early 1900's, production of EV's almost completely stopped once everyone realized that the current technology couldn't compete with IC engines. And until recently, no-one has really been playing with it in any significant way. What has been produced since then is a bunch of vehicles that have borrowed important core technologies that were originally developed for other applications. Even so, these vehicles have been more drivable and, despite the profoundly incorrect statements of others, have a significantly greater real-world usable range between charges.

Well, things are about the start changing. Demand is now clearly on our door-step. And I just know that those last two statements are going to have you cynical people who are obsessed with painting a bleak picture of our future rolling your eyes. But seriously, get a clue. Discussions are taking place, deals are being made and money is being invested. There exists now something that resembles the beginning of a sense of urgency that's never been there before. The only truly valid point of contention in this thread is when we'll see the first truly competitive EV come off the production line.
 
Rav said:
In the late 19th and early 20th century there was, for a time, a great demand for electrical transportation. It seemed like that was going to be the future until internal combustion engines came along.
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It was a better alternative even after cars started to come out. The fact is there is profit in the personal car, and the investments in infrastructure required to outfit places with electric trolleys could easily be dismissed by manipulative politicans as increasing taxes. Ironic, since now we are forced to pay 15-20 thousand on average for a personal car.



But can you imagine the EV's we'd have on the roads today if that hadn't happened?
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No! Electric trains do not automatically lead to electric cars. Electric trains encourage a specific kind of urban planning that make cars unnecessary.


If every R&D dollar spent by every car manufacturer for the last 100 years had been poured into designing more efficient and more driveable EV's?
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It would still be a mistake. The mistake is the personal car, no matter what it's run on. The problem is it creates and encourages sprawl, a way of life that is damaging and depressing.


What some people don't seem to remember, or fail to appreciate, is the true significance of the role that demand plays in the development of certain technologies. In the early 1900's, production of EV's almost completely stopped once everyone realized that the current technology couldn't compete with IC engines.
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It was a false choice. Of course in 1900 internal combustion was better than EVs. But electric trains don't need batteries.

Well, things are about the start changing. Demand is now clearly on our door-step.
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We don't have to give in to every unreasonable demand on the part of the consumer. They also demand jet-packs, but it wouldn't be good for society. The car hasn't been good for society. It has made us fat and weak.


And I just know that those last two statements are going to have you cynical people who are obsessed with painting a bleak picture of our future rolling your eyes.
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I'm not cynical, I'm hopeful for the future, a future without cars will be a better world. But the oil is running out, so let this be a word to the wise. The Earth is not made of a creamy nougat center of oil. Or lithium, or plutonium.


But seriously, get a clue. Discussions are taking place, deals are being made and money is being invested. There exists now something that resembles the beginning of a sense of urgency that's never been there before. The only truly valid point of contention in this thread is when we'll see the first truly competitive EV come off the production line.
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Yeah, it's basically a huge cocksuck. As a country we are in denial. Even if they work, they only encourage a destructive way of life. They destroy community.
 
spidergoat said:
The Earth is not made of a creamy nougat center of oil. Or lithium, or plutonium.
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Thank godness for that. And also for the Sun's composition, which encompasses a perfectly-situated fusion reactor more than adequate for all our energy needs (at least until we're interstellar). It's also cause for rejoicing and optimism that we can convert solar energy into many highly-portable potentials using a widening variety of available, affordable, renewable, and recyclable materials. And I should mention cars. All our cars can be powered by a solar-derived, decentralized "cloud" structured power network.
 
Theoretically yes. Practically it is far from ready to replace oil in the time frame in which oil depletion will cause a widespread economic downturn.
 
Practically, liquid petroleum came to late too replace coal without a hitch. But what's great about renewable energy is that the gold-mines and oil-wells are in them thar intellectual and societal hills. Everybody's got 'em, but proactive policy and innovation is going to put its champions farther ahead of the economy 8-ball than you can Sheikh Yerbouti at.

Solutions are all the more profitable, the higher the demand. The demand for non-petroleum energy is a very solid basis for investment. Of course you can bet on depression or even a new dark age if that's what you see, but given the choice (and I think we have it) I'm confident about what the markets will choose.
 
Well, just don't say that about my airplanes future EVs because I'll really get up in arms. Mobility and freedom are human necessities. Car culture as exemplified in the USA through the past Century does not define all car cultures, technologies, and markets for the next. We did it big, fast, and dirty. Now we're going to (or someone is going to) re-invent personal transportation.
 
That's true, and obviously we don't know if the global economy is recovering or not. I expect that once we seriously begin a deliberate transition from petroleum-based to sustainably-based energy, that the engines motors of industry and consumer confidence will spin up like we've never seen before. We're all affraid, and we should be. But as we start feeling more in control again, we'll become confident again. Overconfident? Possibly- but we're getting better at recognizing the symptoms of that as well.
 
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