E Coli outbreak in Germany - crime and punishment

[Read-Only]

Mod note: split thread from here.


EHEC outbreak in Germany

Germany thinks it MAY have traced to source of infection to bean sprouts (and possibly other salad vegges) to a particular farm in North Germany. They say it's also possible the bacteria may have arrived at the farm from seeds bought from other sources.

It's still to early to be certain, but they seem to have a trail to follow.

It's worth noting that even though this IS an organic farm, they don't use manure for fertilizer. However, two workers on the farm have been identified as infected. This entire "epidemic" as well as 22 confirmed deaths may turn out to be the result of poor personal hygiene on the part of just one or two people. If so, I think criminal charges should be brought.

Meanwhile, the saga continues...

 

[Asguard]

Germany thinks it MAY have traced to source of infection to bean sprouts (and possibly other salad vegges) to a particular farm in North Germany. They say it's also possible the bacteria may have arrived at the farm from seeds bought from other sources.

It's still to early to be certain, but they seem to have a trail to follow.

It's worth noting that even though this IS an organic farm, they don't use manure for fertilizer. However, two workers on the farm have been identified as infected. This entire "epidemic" as well as 22 confirmed deaths may turn out to be the result of poor personal hygiene on the part of just one or two people. If so, I think criminal charges should be brought.

Meanwhile, the saga continues...

your joking right?
You do realise WHY criminal charges are rarly brought for "negligence" in plane crashes right? because authorities want frank and open disclosure INCLUDING of fuckups so that it can be prevented. The health system is the same, if you start using it to charge people then people wont open up and this sort of investigation becomes impossible.

 

[Read-Only]

your joking right?
You do realise WHY criminal charges are rarly brought for "negligence" in plane crashes right? because authorities want frank and open disclosure INCLUDING of fuckups so that it can be prevented. The health system is the same, if you start using it to charge people then people wont open up and this sort of investigation becomes impossible.

Yadda, yadda, yadda. If people aren't held RESPONSIBLE for their actions then there's no point in having ANY law at all. And hopefully, (though I doubt it) you are aware that the REAL reason more negligence charges aren't made is because they are so difficult to prove.

 

[Asguard]

Yadda, yadda, yadda. If people aren't held RESPONSIBLE for their actions then there's no point in having ANY law at all. And hopefully, (though I doubt it) you are aware that the REAL reason more negligence charges aren't made is because they are so difficult to prove.

read do some resurch on a plane crash that happened in brazil where a small regional jet's wingtip sliced through the wing of a jumbo (THINK it was a 7 something but it could have been an airbus). Manslaughter charges were laid against the airtrafic controlers and that horifided the investiagters who were responcible for investigating what happened and insuring it didnt happen again. The coment about needing to be able to freely admit to mestakes is vital to provention. This is the attitude of your OWN NTSB.

 

[Read-Only]

read do some resurch on a plane crash that happened in brazil where a small regional jet's wingtip sliced through the wing of a jumbo (THINK it was a 7 something but it could have been an airbus). Manslaughter charges were laid against the airtrafic controlers and that horifided the investiagters who were responcible for investigating what happened and insuring it didnt happen again. The coment about needing to be able to freely admit to mestakes is vital to provention. This is the attitude of your OWN NTSB.

So, a single incident (which may not even be true) is your sole basis for that claim?? No thanks, I'll stick to the concept of holding the guilty responsible for their actions.

 

[Asguard]

*shakes head* how sad, you would rather punish than prevent.

 

[Read-Only]

*shakes head* how sad, you would rather punish than prevent.

Quite the opposite!!! But I certainly don't believe in giving the guilty a free ride, either. And punishment can *sometimes* also be considered prevention - like the air traffic controllers that were fired for sleeping on the job. How would YOU have liked to have tried to land at their airport? Meanwhile, all the rest of them are making stronger attempts at staying awake while on duty.

Meanwhile, if a few farm workers go to jail for poor personal hygiene resulting in negligent homicide, it should cause many others to give a second thought about what THEY do on the job. Certainly not all, of course, but at least the smarter ones.

 

[Asguard]

Quite the opposite!!! But I certainly don't believe in giving the guilty a free ride, either. And punishment can *sometimes* also be considered prevention - like the air traffic controllers that were fired for sleeping on the job. How would YOU have liked to have tried to land at their airport? Meanwhile, all the rest of them are making stronger attempts at staying awake while on duty.

Meanwhile, if a few farm workers go to jail for poor personal hygiene resulting in negligent homicide, it should cause many others to give a second thought about what THEY do on the job. Certainly not all, of course, but at least the smarter ones.

Ok lets call bullshit bullshit, show me ANY real scientific evidence that the "criminal justice system" works as a deterant.

 

[Pete]

What's the point in a witch-hunt? What value is gained from imprisoning couple of nobody farm workers who didn't wash their hands?

 

[Read-Only]

Ok lets call bullshit bullshit, show me ANY real scientific evidence that the "criminal justice system" works as a deterant.

You're being foolish! Of course it works to some degree - just a locked doors don't keep all crooks out BUT they still serve to keep *some* out.

 

[Read-Only]

What's the point in a witch-hunt? What value is gained from imprisoning couple of nobody farm workers who didn't wash their hands?

Calling it "witch hunt" is pretty silly, Pete, especially considering that if they ARE at fault they've caused well over a dozen innocent people to die needlessly.

As far as I'm concerned, if guilty, do the time. Period.

 

[Asguard]

You're being foolish! Of course it works to some degree - just a locked doors don't keep all crooks out BUT they still serve to keep *some* out.

that is not evidence

 

[Pete]

Calling it "witch hunt" is pretty silly, Pete, especially considering that if they ARE at fault they've caused well over a dozen innocent people to die needlessly.

As far as I'm concerned, if guilty, do the time. Period.

If they are exclusively to blame. Big IF.
Looking for individuals on which to lay blame is a witch-hunt.

And once again... what does making them do the time achieve? Revenge?

 

[Bells]

Mod note: split thread from here.


EHEC outbreak in Germany

Germany thinks it MAY have traced to source of infection to bean sprouts (and possibly other salad vegges) to a particular farm in North Germany. They say it's also possible the bacteria may have arrived at the farm from seeds bought from other sources.

It's still to early to be certain, but they seem to have a trail to follow.

It's worth noting that even though this IS an organic farm, they don't use manure for fertilizer. However, two workers on the farm have been identified as infected. This entire "epidemic" as well as 22 confirmed deaths may turn out to be the result of poor personal hygiene on the part of just one or two people. If so, I think criminal charges should be brought.

Meanwhile, the saga continues...

If it was a situation that involved deliberate contamination, then yes, criminal charges should be brought.

People who are currently very ill (kidney failure isn't something to be laughed at) and the relatives of those who have died from this will of course want some sense of justice.

However no one yet knows the exact source of this contamination. They say that it may be from the sprouts grown in Germany from seeds sourced internationally. The seeds themselves may have been contaminated or the people working at the farm may not have washed their hands properly. What we do know is that this strand of E.coli is a new strand and it is quite devastating. Hundreds gravely ill, thousands infected and at least 22 dead.

It is easy to say that going after someone who may not have washed their hands is a witch hunt. Very easy to say. And in some ways those saying this could be right. But the victims and their families want and deserve some justice also.

It is easy to say that one can merely learn from the negligence of others and that it's not worth going after someone who was negligent (if that is the case in this instance). But until you are directly affected by someone's negligence and it puts your life at risk or kills someone you care for, then really, it is not for you to say you understand or demand that it is not worth it.

People who work in that industry know that hygiene is essential. And they also know why. It will remain to be seen what exactly led to this outbreak. If it comes down to someone who couldn't be bothered washing their hands, then yes, some form of sanction should apply either to the individual or to the company that failed to test their products accordingly.

 

[Asguard]

bells, its not that its "not worth it", its that it is detremental to the whole health system and food saftey. Lets say it is 2 farmers who didnt wash there hands, firstly this isnt a restraunt, a family farm is just that a HOME first and buiness second so yes, if they got up in the morning and started work and didnt wash that is more understandable than someone who fails to do it in a restraunt or even a packing plant where work and home are strictly defined.

Secondly how easy do you think its going to be to trace the next outbreak if you procute this one for what amounts to an acident (still making the assumption as above)

Thirdly what is the payoff? blood? you think that locking them up is going to benifit ANYONE? There dead or sick, nothing can change that. Surposedly the justice system is about procting sociaty, how would jail (or even fining someone) protect sociaty? You think they will do it again? Concidering that they were the first 2 victoms i find it highly doubtful, even if they suffered no health effects themselves they have to live with the knowlage for the rest of there lives, what purpose would it serve?

Its no different from charging someone who thought there kid was inside and backed the car out there own driveway to find the kid had run out after them. I have never understood this desire to drag everyone and anyone through the legal system, sure it keeps lawyers and judges employed but it doesnt benifit sociaty in the slightest

 

[Bells]

bells, its not that its "not worth it", its that it is detremental to the whole health system and food saftey. Lets say it is 2 farmers who didnt wash there hands, firstly this isnt a restraunt, a family farm is just that a HOME first and buiness second so yes, if they got up in the morning and started work and didnt wash that is more understandable than someone who fails to do it in a restraunt or even a packing plant where work and home are strictly defined.

If this stems from people not washing their hands..

Asguard, when I buy food, whether prepared in a restaurant or in a supermarket, I expect that it doesn't have human faeces on it. Call me strange, but that's just me. I also expect that when I wash my vegetables and fruit, that any toxins or human by products are washed away. What I do not expect is that the actual product itself is tainted because someone who handled the seeds may have started work after taking a dump in the toilet and didn't wash his or her hands.

This is not a one off thing. Thousands of people have come down with this. Which probably means that someone or people failed to wash their hands over a period of time.

I expect people who work in the food industry actually know and understand basic hygiene.

Secondly how easy do you think its going to be to trace the next outbreak if you procute this one for what amounts to an acident (still making the assumption as above)

You do not know if this is an accident or not.

However, there is a difference between an accident and being purely and knowingly negligent.

Thirdly what is the payoff? blood? you think that locking them up is going to benifit ANYONE? There dead or sick, nothing can change that. Surposedly the justice system is about procting sociaty, how would jail (or even fining someone) protect sociaty? You think they will do it again? Concidering that they were the first 2 victoms i find it highly doubtful, even if they suffered no health effects themselves they have to live with the knowlage for the rest of there lives, what purpose would it serve?

Why do you assume the first two victims are the people who started this outbreak?

So far, nothing has been stated in the media. Do you have a link that states they were sick from this outbreak?

What do I think can be the outcome from this? To teach people that if they work in the food industry, then basic hygiene is essential, regardless of what caused this outbreak and where or who this came from.

Its no different from charging someone who thought there kid was inside and backed the car out there own driveway to find the kid had run out after them. I have never understood this desire to drag everyone and anyone through the legal system, sure it keeps lawyers and judges employed but it doesnt benifit sociaty in the slightest

Here is the difference between an accident and negligent action that harms others.

A parent believing their child is inside the house and backing the car our and running said child over - accident. In no way can something like that compare with what we are seeing in Europe and now also the US (yes, it's spread to the US as well now it seems). This outbreak is akin to someone parking their car up a steep hill and not bothering to put the handbreak on and the car rolls down a hill and smashes into people gathered in one area (say a school), killing nearly two dozen. Tell me, would you claim that the driver should not face legal sanctions for their negligence?

Now can you tell the difference between an accident and negligence?

 

[Asguard]

Now can you tell the difference between an accident and negligence?

yes, lawyers.

as for the link, read only posted that it was the 2 workers who were initally sick.

Do you know how bacteria and virus's work bells? one incident can well lead to all this. The SARS epidemic was caused by one doctor who after seeing pts who would latter be found to be infected went to a hotel in Hon Kong. That was a virus so it needed person to person contact, E'Coli is a bacteria which means it doesnt need person to person contact, it can exist in the enviroment. One incident could well lead to a world wide epidemic

 

[Bells]

yes, lawyers.

Until you are involved in one of these cases, where someone's negligence affects yourself or someone you care for, you really can't say that if someone is directly responsible, then they should face no sanctions whatsoever.

as for the link, read only posted that it was the 2 workers who were initally sick.

Says nothing if it is this rare strain.

Do you know how bacteria and virus's work bells? one incident can well lead to all this. The SARS epidemic was caused by one doctor who after seeing pts who would latter be found to be infected went to a hotel in Hon Kong. That was a virus so it needed person to person contact, E'Coli is a bacteria which means it doesnt need person to person contact, it can exist in the enviroment. One incident could well lead to a world wide epidemic

Which is why safety standards exist and the expectation that people wash their hands after wiping their backsides shouldn't be up for discussion. Just as I would expect someone who parks on a hill to use their handbreak.

 

[Asguard]

sorry bells, i thought the legal system wasnt about punishment, after all why dont we let victoms chose punishements in courts bells?
edit to add: and why was the husband of a termanly ill person who wrote to the AG and begged him not to procute her husband for helping her to die procuted.

 

[Bells]

sorry bells, i thought the legal system wasnt about punishment, after all why dont we let victoms chose punishements in courts bells?

It is also about justice for the victims. Over 200 people are gravely ill with some having suffered from kidney failure Asguard. Are you saying those people are not victims and do not warrant some form of justice?

edit to add: and why was the husband of a termanly ill person who wrote to the AG and begged him not to procute her husband for helping her to die procuted.

Do you think euthanasia where a wife asked her husband to terminate her life while she is terminally ill is akin to someone contaminating food products which has affected thousands of people, left at least 22 dead so far and hundreds gravely ill, with some having suffered kidney failure?

Think about it without the hysteria for a minute.

Someone (or more than one person) may have failed to wash their hands after they wiped their backsides - and this may not have been a one off event but may have occured repeatedly when one considers just how many were affected and the different types of possible sprouts affected. If that is the case, that person's negligence has resulted in multiple deaths and thousands ill and hundreds requiring hospital care and many of those requiring dialysis for kidney failure. Now assuming this is the cause of this outbreak, do you think it is acceptable that the victims get no justice because someone couldn't be bothered with basic hygiene? I think they deserve justice.

This wasn't an accident. If this was from this kind of contaminatioin, then sorry, but those involved should face legal sanctions. Safety regulations and laws exist for a reason. Just as I would expect that someone who parks up the road from a childcare centre and doesn't bother to engage the park break and it rolls down and kills people faces legal action for their negligence.