Think about it, Jesus was literally perfect, according to the Bible. How must this have made him look back then? Never telling a lie, never commiting a single sin. It doesn't make sense, it is human to be sinful, he would not even look human if he actually was perfect and sent from God. I am constantly encountering things in religion that do not make sense, which has ultimately lead me to atheism.
Does Jesus make sense?
- Thread starter Aborted_Fetus
- Start date
Aborted_Fetus said:
It obviously made Him look like an absolute freak. So much so that it made some follow Him around in droves...made some His disciples...made some consider Him their last resort facing death, disease, or some suffering...and of course made some very threatened...enough so that they found it cause to murder Him.
Love,
Lori
Aborted_Fetus: Think about it, Jesus was literally perfect, according to the Bible. How must this have made him look back then? Never telling a lie, never commiting a single sin. It doesn't make sense, it is human to be sinful, he would not even look human if he actually was perfect and sent from God. I am constantly encountering things in religion that do not make sense, which has ultimately lead me to atheism.
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M*W: I understand where you're coming from. Becoming an atheist is not something one does overnight. It is a growing process that requires deprogamming, deconversion and reeducation. You are on the right track, however. The Jesus that we have been told of is not the true Jesus, but christians still believe he is the same. I feel sure the 'real' Jesus had 'real' human feelings such as anger when he upset the moneychangers at the temple. I am certain he felt the fear of crucifixion, although I don't believe he was crucified nor resurrected. He felt the emotion of love for his wife, Mary Magdalene and his children. I am also sure he must have understood the betrayal of his followers such as Peter, whom I have learned since my own deconversion that Peter subterfuged his position as the head of Jesus' church.
The most important thing you could do at this point is read everything you can outside the bible so you can learn the truth. To get you started, I recommend the following books:
Bloodline of the Holy Grail: The Hidden Lineage of Jesus Revealed, by Laurence Gardner.
(This book is well-referenced and on sale right now at Barnes& Noble, however, I believe you can read some of it if not all online).
Secondly, I recommend:
The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity, by Hyam Maccoby.
(This book is also well-referenced and online. It exposes Paul for the liar, thief and murderer he really was).
It's is totally refreshing to hear from someone who has exercised their own free will to find out the truth. As you progress through this 'relearning' process, it will all come together for you and will make sense -- unlike christianity which leads one with doubt. Good luck on your mission for the truth!
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M*W: I understand where you're coming from. Becoming an atheist is not something one does overnight. It is a growing process that requires deprogamming, deconversion and reeducation. You are on the right track, however. The Jesus that we have been told of is not the true Jesus, but christians still believe he is the same. I feel sure the 'real' Jesus had 'real' human feelings such as anger when he upset the moneychangers at the temple. I am certain he felt the fear of crucifixion, although I don't believe he was crucified nor resurrected. He felt the emotion of love for his wife, Mary Magdalene and his children. I am also sure he must have understood the betrayal of his followers such as Peter, whom I have learned since my own deconversion that Peter subterfuged his position as the head of Jesus' church.
The most important thing you could do at this point is read everything you can outside the bible so you can learn the truth. To get you started, I recommend the following books:
Bloodline of the Holy Grail: The Hidden Lineage of Jesus Revealed, by Laurence Gardner.
(This book is well-referenced and on sale right now at Barnes& Noble, however, I believe you can read some of it if not all online).
Secondly, I recommend:
The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity, by Hyam Maccoby.
(This book is also well-referenced and online. It exposes Paul for the liar, thief and murderer he really was).
It's is totally refreshing to hear from someone who has exercised their own free will to find out the truth. As you progress through this 'relearning' process, it will all come together for you and will make sense -- unlike christianity which leads one with doubt. Good luck on your mission for the truth!
Medicine Woman,
May I point out that just because you allowed yourself to be "programmed", and to misunderstand the Bible and it's teachings doesn't mean that everyone who believes does. As a matter of fact, being reborn in Christ and having a personal relationship with Him...knowing Him personally...negates that misunderstanding completely. Yes indeed Jesus was human...which is stated clearly in the Bible, and yes indeed He had human feelings and temptations...which is stated clearly in the Bible as well. But that in no way means that He acted upon His feelings in sin, or that He wasn't who He said He was. It actually says just that very thing...that Jesus was God come to earth in the form of a HUMAN BEING.
Love,
Lori
May I point out that just because you allowed yourself to be "programmed", and to misunderstand the Bible and it's teachings doesn't mean that everyone who believes does. As a matter of fact, being reborn in Christ and having a personal relationship with Him...knowing Him personally...negates that misunderstanding completely. Yes indeed Jesus was human...which is stated clearly in the Bible, and yes indeed He had human feelings and temptations...which is stated clearly in the Bible as well. But that in no way means that He acted upon His feelings in sin, or that He wasn't who He said He was. It actually says just that very thing...that Jesus was God come to earth in the form of a HUMAN BEING.
Love,
Lori
Yes Medicine Woman, it definitely is a process. I went to a Cathlic high school (not for religious purposes, though, mostly for sports), of which I entered Catholic, but left atheist. I had to take religion class all fours years there, and through the first year I had my doubts. Same with my second year. The third year is when I ultimately made the decision that the idea of God, Jesus, and the Bible was completely rediculous. I had a teacher that was super-religious, which at first did not bother me too much. But the way he taught his class made me so angry. The class was supposed to be more like a history of the Catholic church type of thing, but it ended up being my teacher almost brainwashing us into thinking like him. He presented ideas from the Bible as absolute fact (which, by the way, previous teachers did NOT do, even a priest that I had). His way of teaching angered me so much that it led me to reading atheistic literature, at first just to write sarcastic essays for him. But then I found that this literature made more sense than ANYTHING I had read in the Bible or other religious works I was forced to read. It was almost liberating to read these things that confirmed by doubts I have been having for all these years.
My parents, even though they are Catholic, never had me baptized as a child, they wanted to let me grow up and think for myself. They have always taught me to think for myself, which, as I look back on it, might have been the greatest thing they have ever taught me.
My parents, even though they are Catholic, never had me baptized as a child, they wanted to let me grow up and think for myself. They have always taught me to think for myself, which, as I look back on it, might have been the greatest thing they have ever taught me.
Aborted_Fetus: Yes Medicine Woman, it definitely is a process. I went to a Cathlic high school (not for religious purposes, though, mostly for sports), of which I entered Catholic, but left atheist. I had to take religion class all fours years there, and through the first year I had my doubts. Same with my second year. The third year is when I ultimately made the decision that the idea of God, Jesus, and the Bible was completely rediculous. I had a teacher that was super-religious, which at first did not bother me too much. But the way he taught his class made me so angry. The class was supposed to be more like a history of the Catholic church type of thing, but it ended up being my teacher almost brainwashing us into thinking like him. He presented ideas from the Bible as absolute fact (which, by the way, previous teachers did NOT do, even a priest that I had). His way of teaching angered me so much that it led me to reading atheistic literature, at first just to write sarcastic essays for him. But then I found that this literature made more sense than ANYTHING I had read in the Bible or other religious works I was forced to read. It was almost liberating to read these things that confirmed by doubts I have been having for all these years.
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M*W: Been there, done that, too. I went to an ultra conservative Baptist University, and I hated the religion courses and the twice a week church assembly. Since they didn't take attendance at these huge assemblies, I skipped out on Tuesdays and Thursdays. After that Baptist experience, I went on to marry a Catholic, who my Baptist friends tried to sway me away from. I wished I had listened to them at the time, but I was stubborn. I became Catholic to raise my kids in a religion. The two older ones left the Catholic church and embraced two kinds of holy roller church, and my two younger ones believe as I now do. I might also add here that my two eldest kids, grown of course, are nuttier than fruitcakes. You can imagine how fiercely they have tried to save my soul, but they've also got their friends praying for my salvation and annoying me with their phone calls and uninvited visits! If it's not from them bothering me, it's the Mormons and JW's coming to my door. Thus far, they have been unable to answer some of the questions I pose! I like to make them stand there and throw all kinds of questions at them. Maybe I'll give them something to think about!
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Aborted_Fetus: My parents, even though they are Catholic, never had me baptized as a child, they wanted to let me grow up and think for myself. They have always taught me to think for myself, which, as I look back on it, might have been the greatest thing they have ever taught me.
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M*W: My parents taught me no religion, which made me curious since all my friends seemed to go to church. When I did become Catholic, I scorched the Earth for a few years teaching catechism, but I reached a point that even the priests couldn't/wouldn't answer my questions. I knew the truth would be found, but that I would have to go looking for it. When I found the truth, I realized that christianity was a false religion. Since then, about ten years ago, I began my research. I wanted to prove christianity was without a doubt a good religion. I feared leaving the church! Them more I researched, the further I fell away. Recently, from my studies on Egyptology, I have begun to believe that even Judaism was a false religion. The Torah was totally written by and for the Egyptians. Maybe we should all be Egyptians, then? Who knows? Christianity is a dying religion worldwide. I hope I live long enough to see its demise. The study of Jesus and the study of christianity are two separate and diverse subjects. If you want to learn about Jesus, the last place one should look is in the bible. Christianity does not relate to the historic Jesus at all.
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M*W: Been there, done that, too. I went to an ultra conservative Baptist University, and I hated the religion courses and the twice a week church assembly. Since they didn't take attendance at these huge assemblies, I skipped out on Tuesdays and Thursdays. After that Baptist experience, I went on to marry a Catholic, who my Baptist friends tried to sway me away from. I wished I had listened to them at the time, but I was stubborn. I became Catholic to raise my kids in a religion. The two older ones left the Catholic church and embraced two kinds of holy roller church, and my two younger ones believe as I now do. I might also add here that my two eldest kids, grown of course, are nuttier than fruitcakes. You can imagine how fiercely they have tried to save my soul, but they've also got their friends praying for my salvation and annoying me with their phone calls and uninvited visits! If it's not from them bothering me, it's the Mormons and JW's coming to my door. Thus far, they have been unable to answer some of the questions I pose! I like to make them stand there and throw all kinds of questions at them. Maybe I'll give them something to think about!
*************
Aborted_Fetus: My parents, even though they are Catholic, never had me baptized as a child, they wanted to let me grow up and think for myself. They have always taught me to think for myself, which, as I look back on it, might have been the greatest thing they have ever taught me.
*************
M*W: My parents taught me no religion, which made me curious since all my friends seemed to go to church. When I did become Catholic, I scorched the Earth for a few years teaching catechism, but I reached a point that even the priests couldn't/wouldn't answer my questions. I knew the truth would be found, but that I would have to go looking for it. When I found the truth, I realized that christianity was a false religion. Since then, about ten years ago, I began my research. I wanted to prove christianity was without a doubt a good religion. I feared leaving the church! Them more I researched, the further I fell away. Recently, from my studies on Egyptology, I have begun to believe that even Judaism was a false religion. The Torah was totally written by and for the Egyptians. Maybe we should all be Egyptians, then? Who knows? Christianity is a dying religion worldwide. I hope I live long enough to see its demise. The study of Jesus and the study of christianity are two separate and diverse subjects. If you want to learn about Jesus, the last place one should look is in the bible. Christianity does not relate to the historic Jesus at all.
also, according to the bible jesus descended into the sky and appeared to over 500 after he was crucified. the portrayal of jesus in the bible doesn't make much sense and because the christian religion calls the bible "infallible" they accept everything it teaches. i have read the bible extensively and have taken most of it metaphorically. jesus did exist and was a wonderful teacher, but dying for our sins? seems a little far fetched to me.
isis25: also, according to the bible jesus descended into the sky and appeared to over 500 after he was crucified. the portrayal of jesus in the bible doesn't make much sense and because the christian religion calls the bible "infallible" they accept everything it teaches. i have read the bible extensively and have taken most of it metaphorically. jesus did exist and was a wonderful teacher, but dying for our sins? seems a little far fetched to me.
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M*W: The truth is that Jesus wasn't god and never claimed to be. The Pauline Epistles distort the truth. Paul was a liar, thief and murderer. It is beyond me how the early church placed much credibility on Paul of Tarsus. He never knew Jesus. Interestingly, the whole 'god' thing wasn't invented until 325 AD, and the early church fathers included this lie in their doctrine. Jesus was not a savior until they anointed him as one.
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M*W: The truth is that Jesus wasn't god and never claimed to be. The Pauline Epistles distort the truth. Paul was a liar, thief and murderer. It is beyond me how the early church placed much credibility on Paul of Tarsus. He never knew Jesus. Interestingly, the whole 'god' thing wasn't invented until 325 AD, and the early church fathers included this lie in their doctrine. Jesus was not a savior until they anointed him as one.
Joeman: Hold it. According to one person's testimony (Paul), 500 people saw Jesus. Still, that's based on the testimony of one person.
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M*W: ...and that one person just happened to be a liar, thief and murderer!
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M*W: ...and that one person just happened to be a liar, thief and murderer!
Hey everyone!
After reading through some of the interesting responses and personal experiencees, I thought I could suggest a web site that deals with such questions that some folks might have: http://www.apologetics.com
They have a forumns area to interact and ask questions as well.
--cel2000xl
After reading through some of the interesting responses and personal experiencees, I thought I could suggest a web site that deals with such questions that some folks might have: http://www.apologetics.com
They have a forumns area to interact and ask questions as well.
--cel2000xl
Leo Volont
Registered Senior Member
Aborted_Fetus said:
Actually it is a Pauline Doctrine that "it is human to sin". Before Paul came up with that Doctrine, the various Religions had thought better of Humanity.
That is why I always insist that Paul was the Antichrist. He gave the World an Anti-Religion that taught such as you that it was tantamount to a Certain Logical Proof that Human Beings necessarily Sin. Then Paul goes further and instructs the World that by murdering the Messia, all Sins would be forgiven. It is entirely Satanic and I often wonder how Protestants don't see that as clearly as I do.
So, I gather from you, that you think Christ was false because he not only demanded Righteousness of us, but delivered it from Himself. It sounds to me like you are giving up too easily.
But since you expect Evil from Humanity, I hope you receive evil from all of your family, receive evil from all of your closest friends, receive evil on the Job, and receive evil in all of your relationships. Since you can only believe in Evil, I hope you get plenty of it.
battig1370
Registered Senior Member
Battig1370: A question has been asked: Does Jesus make sense? When the testimony of Jesus and the testimony of Saul/St.Paul are put together as one testimony, Jesus does not make sense. Saul/St.Paul purpose was to make the Beast that calls himself Jesus and Jesus as ONE JESUS. Saul/St.Paul has WON THE RACE up to now. SOON it will be revealed that Saul/St.Paul is the greatest false prophet within the christian world.
Leo Volont: "I often wonder how Protestants don't see that as clearly as I do."
Battig1370: Also, I have wondered for more than 20 years why christians refuse, or are afraid to even examine the possiblity that the Beast is the One that came to Saul/St.Paul on the road to Damascus saying "I am the Jesus of Nazareth", which has made Saul/St.Paul a chief false prophet.
isis25: "jesus did exist and was a wonderful teacher, but dying for our sins? seems a little far fetched to me."
Battig1370: "dying for our sins?" that's a doctrine from Saul/St.Paul. Jesus was not executed for man's wickness, but He was executed because of man's wickness (sins). Anyone that know the personality and purpose of Jesus, would also know that Saul/St.Paul is the greatest false prophet within the christian world.
Peace be with you, Paul
Leo Volont: "I often wonder how Protestants don't see that as clearly as I do."
Battig1370: Also, I have wondered for more than 20 years why christians refuse, or are afraid to even examine the possiblity that the Beast is the One that came to Saul/St.Paul on the road to Damascus saying "I am the Jesus of Nazareth", which has made Saul/St.Paul a chief false prophet.
isis25: "jesus did exist and was a wonderful teacher, but dying for our sins? seems a little far fetched to me."
Battig1370: "dying for our sins?" that's a doctrine from Saul/St.Paul. Jesus was not executed for man's wickness, but He was executed because of man's wickness (sins). Anyone that know the personality and purpose of Jesus, would also know that Saul/St.Paul is the greatest false prophet within the christian world.
Peace be with you, Paul
battig1370: A question has been asked: Does Jesus make sense? When the testimony of Jesus and the testimony of Saul/St.Paul are put together as one testimony, Jesus does not make sense. Saul/St.Paul purpose was to make the Beast that calls himself Jesus and Jesus as ONE JESUS. Saul/St.Paul has WON THE RACE up to now. SOON it will be revealed that Saul/St.Paul is the greatest false prophet within the christian world.
Also, I have wondered for more than 20 years why christians refuse, or are afraid to even examine the possiblity that the Beast is the One that came to Saul/St.Paul on the road to Damascus saying "I am the Jesus of Nazareth", which has made Saul/St.Paul a chief false prophet.
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M*W: It is truly mind-boggling how many people over the past 1600 years have looked to Saul/Paul as speaking the truth when all he speaks have been lies upon lies! You are right, to compare what the Gnostic Gospels say Jesus said and that which Saul/Paul said that Jesus said are so grossly opposite. How could the early church fathers have been so blatantly ignorant to give Saul/Paul any credibility and reject the Gnostic Gospels? How lucky we are that those, too, were not burned with the rest of the books the early church fathers refused! Why did Saul find a need to change his name to Paul? His deception (or delusion) started long before Damascus. For anyone who wants to learn the truth about Saul/Paul, I recommend: The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity, by Hyam Maccoby.
[Jesus] exist and was a wonderful teacher, but dying for our sins? seems a little far fetched to me."
Battig1370: "dying for our sins?" that's a doctrine from Saul/St.Paul. Jesus was not executed for man's wickness, but He was executed because of man's wickness (sins). Anyone that know the personality and purpose of Jesus, would also know that Saul/St.Paul is the greatest false prophet within the christian world.
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M*W:
Also, I have wondered for more than 20 years why christians refuse, or are afraid to even examine the possiblity that the Beast is the One that came to Saul/St.Paul on the road to Damascus saying "I am the Jesus of Nazareth", which has made Saul/St.Paul a chief false prophet.
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M*W: It is truly mind-boggling how many people over the past 1600 years have looked to Saul/Paul as speaking the truth when all he speaks have been lies upon lies! You are right, to compare what the Gnostic Gospels say Jesus said and that which Saul/Paul said that Jesus said are so grossly opposite. How could the early church fathers have been so blatantly ignorant to give Saul/Paul any credibility and reject the Gnostic Gospels? How lucky we are that those, too, were not burned with the rest of the books the early church fathers refused! Why did Saul find a need to change his name to Paul? His deception (or delusion) started long before Damascus. For anyone who wants to learn the truth about Saul/Paul, I recommend: The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity, by Hyam Maccoby.
[Jesus] exist and was a wonderful teacher, but dying for our sins? seems a little far fetched to me."
Battig1370: "dying for our sins?" that's a doctrine from Saul/St.Paul. Jesus was not executed for man's wickness, but He was executed because of man's wickness (sins). Anyone that know the personality and purpose of Jesus, would also know that Saul/St.Paul is the greatest false prophet within the christian world.
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M*W: