Does EV cars really reduce CO2 emission?

[Saint]

Does EV cars really reduce CO2 emission?
EV cars need to charge the battery with high current and voltage.
If more coals are to be burned to generate electricity,
on one hand cut CO2, on the other hand increase CO2,
what good is that?
We have done so many things trying to cool the Earth, but why it is still heating up? New recorded high temperature?

Does the sea water also increase in temperature?
That is even worse, coral will die, sea speacies will die in high quantity.

 

[spidergoat]

If you compare driving an gas car to an EV, then yes, the EV overall produces less CO2 over the lifetime of the vehicle. Even if the electricity is produced using only fossil fuel. However, there isn't a state in my great country that doesn't generate it's electricity at least partially using renewable sources, so that makes it even more efficient. It does take more CO2 to produce an EV car compared to a gas car, but it does eventually break even after 30-60K miles, depending on your driving habits and the efficiency of the car. You can also put solar panels on your house and further decrease emissions. The best thing would be to end the use of cars in most cases and use bicycles or trains.

We have done very little to cool the Earth, other than build solar farms, nuclear plants, and wind turbines, would you care to explain? The Earth will continue to heat at long as CO2 emissions continue, and levels have been rising.

 

[billvon]

Does EV cars really reduce CO2 emission?

Yes

EV cars need to charge the battery with high current and voltage.

No, they don't. You can charge an EV with 120 volts AC at 8 amps.

If more coals are to be burned to generate electricity,
on one hand cut CO2, on the other hand increase CO2,
what good is that?

Because even if you burn 100% coal to generate your power, the efficiency from fuel to wheels is on the order of 40%. If you burn gasoline to generate that power in an internal combustion engine, it's closer to 25%. So even in that imaginary place, you are still much better off with an EV, because you burn less fossil fuel and produce less CO2.

But here in California we have about 2% of our energy from coal, and over 60% is from renewables. At my house 100% of my energy is from solar.

We have done so many things trying to cool the Earth

We have done nothing to try to cool the Earth. At best things like EV's will stop it from warming as quickly.

but why it is still heating up?

Because we are still emitting a lot of CO2 - and even after we stop that warming has some momentum. If you want it to be cooler in 30 years we have to stop generating CO2 now.

Does the sea water also increase in temperature?.

Yes, and we are seeing record high temperatures there as well.

 

[Saint]

Electric motors makes vehicles substantially more efficient than internal combustion engines (ICEs). Electric motors convert over 85 percent of electrical energy into mechanical energy, or motion, compared to less than 40 percent for a gas combustion engine.

By theory, EV car will generate less CO2 from its production until end of its service, correct?
But EV car's battery need lithium, which is a rare metal, with atomic number 3.
And lithium battery is not recyclable, it also has toxic chemicals in it.
What is solar panel made of? Mainly silicon? Solar panel has no environmentally bad ingredient?
Can solar panel power our cars efficiently? To go for a distance 1000km at the speed of 100 km/h non-stop?

 

[Pinball1970]

NASA has made progress on non lithium batteries.


https://fagenwasanni.com/solid-stat...e battery,of power, especially during takeoff.

 

[C C]

Does EV cars really reduce CO2 emission?

Cities should garner cleaner air as a result. But by themselves, I doubt EVs will have a major impact upon climate change.

I'm kind of in between. Neither singing hymns of glory in the "Greenwashed Church of Secular Ideology" congregation nor being wholly pessimistic.

Reality-wise, I expect plenty of frustrations slash problems accumulating and encountered in terms of peoples' direct personal experiences as the transition progresses (versus today's idealized generalizations permeating the motivated agitprop).

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Electric vehicle myths (government source; potential propaganda)
https://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/electric-vehicle-myths

The biggest myths about electric vehicles ("independent" source; potential self-interests)
https://www.freethink.com/technology/myths-about-electric-vehicles

Disclosure: The author owns various stocks tied to electric vehicles.

Still, misinformation abounds during this exciting technological change. Here are seven of the biggest myths about EVs... COVERED: Electric cars will always be more expensive ..... Electric cars will overload the grid. ..... EV batteries don’t last. ..... The range of electric cars is still too small. ..... Charging will always be too slow. ..... We won’t be able to recycle EV batteries. ..... Electric vehicles are worse for the environment.

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Why EVs aren't a climate change panacea
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2659316104

This is not to imply in any way that electric vehicles are worthless. Analysis by the International Council on Clean Transportation (ICCT) argues that EVs are the quickest means to decarbonize motorized transport. However, EVs are not by themselves in any way going to achieve the goal of net zero by 2050.

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Ease up: are we about to hit a bottleneck for electric vehicle resources?
https://cosmosmagazine.com/technology/energy/electric-vehicles-ev-lithium-ion-bottleneck/

A modelling study looking at electric vehicles has found that the resources to produce them will be significantly strained in the next few years. The researchers suggest that to stop the worst of the bottleneck will take an overhaul – we need to change the way we think about our cars and cities.

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What will it take to recycle millions of worn-out EV batteries?
https://knowablemagazine.org/article/technology/2022/what-will-it-take-to-recycle-ev-batteries

Researchers say that figuring out recycling could help to avoid the environmental risks of more mining and a buildup of hazardous battery waste — but reprocessing these batteries and refining the metals they contain for reuse is difficult and costly, and many remain skeptical of how truly circular that supply chain can ever be.

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What will it take to charge electric vehicles faster?
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/inno...to-charge-electric-vehicles-faster-180982221/

Electric vehicles are quieter, easier to repair and maintain, and far better for the environment than traditional internal combustion cars. Still, numbers of EVs on the road are trailing behind the cars they’re supposed to replace, in part due to charging times. [...] These slow charging speeds have only exacerbated “range anxiety”—the concern that batteries could run out of charge on the road.

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Can Power Grids Cope With Millions of EVs?
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2658463709

There have been vigorous debates pro and con in the United States and elsewhere over whether electric grids can support EVs at scale. The answer is a nuanced “perhaps.” It depends on several factors...

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Commentary: I'm ready to trade in my electric car. Here's why
https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/oth...ade-in-my-electric-car-here-s-why/ar-AA1adENF

I love how I never have to buy gas. I love how it glides quietly up the street. I love that it has so much pickup that I can easily blow past gas-powered muscle cars if I want to. I love having stickers that allow me to drive solo in the HOV lanes. I love that routine maintenance consists of little more than rotating the tires.

But after three years, I am thinking seriously of trading it in for the gas-powered hybrid plug-in version. Why? Because...

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The aftershocks of the EV transition could be ugly
https://spectrum.ieee.org/the-ev-transition-explained-2659368857

Nothing in modern society operates without reliable access to both energy and information, and they are connected in ways we do not fully understand. Agitate one or the other, let alone both simultaneously, without comprehending or actively planning contingencies for how the countless and frequently fragile interactions between them will be affected, is asking to be unpleasantly surprised by the aftershocks created. Creating far-reaching technology policy first and then figuring out the myriad of engineering details needed to implement it second, is always going to be a high-risk strategy that needs an appropriate level of wariness...

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Here’s one way we know that an EV’s battery will last the car’s lifetime
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2022/0...t-an-evs-battery-will-last-the-cars-lifetime/

The top concern is probably range anxiety, a fear that is usually dispelled as someone gets used to waking up to a full battery every morning. I won't dwell on that today, but the next-most common point of confusion about EVs has to be the traction battery's longevity, or potential lack thereof....

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[billvon]

But EV car's battery need lithium, which is a rare metal, with atomic number 3.

Lithium is actually pretty readily available in brines that we can pump. We just haven't needed it that much so we haven't scaled up those processes.

And lithium battery is not recyclable, it also has toxic chemicals in it.

Lithium batteries are quite recyclable. They are less toxic than lead batteries and lead batteries are recycled.

What is solar panel made of? Mainly silicon?

Mainly glass, aluminum, EVA and copper. The silicon makes up only about 5% by weight.

Can solar panel power our cars efficiently? To go for a distance 1000km at the speed of 100 km/h non-stop?

It powers mine. However you don't put the panels on the car. You use the panels to charge the car.

 

[C C]

[...] But EV car's battery need lithium, which is a rare metal [...]

Expatriate or ancestrally-identifying Chinese (nationalists) -- who are also "extended decolonization enthusiastic" -- should perhaps instead be rejoicing about EVs.

Lithium shortage may stall electric car revolution and embed China’s lead
https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwi...and-embed-chinas-lead-report/?sh=100eb1b246ef

KEY POINTS: Western weaknesses in lithium-ion supply chains will slow electric vehicle adoption and demonstrate China’s dominance of the EV (electric vehicle) market.

This kind of pressure might also delay the “affordable” $25,000 electric car.

EV output is set to “skyrocket” to 12.76 million cars a year by 2026, with over half coming from China. With lithium prices set to rise throughout the next decade, the EV sector in the West will have to face rising battery costs. If they pass costs on to the consumer, EV adoption will likely accelerate at a slower rate than previously expected,

Western leaders are ignoring the trillion-ton elephant in the room. Carbon-free power and gasoline-free transportation cannot exist without mining an absurd amount of lithium. Right now, production is not even close to keeping up.​

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[spidergoat]

...
Can solar panel power our cars efficiently? To go for a distance 1000km at the speed of 100 km/h non-stop?

Not so much a solar panel on a car, but fixed solar panels used to generate electricity. Perceived range requirements for EVs are usually exaggerated.

 

[billvon]

Lithium shortage may stall electric car revolution and embed China’s lead

https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwi...and-embed-chinas-lead-report/?sh=100eb1b246ef

KEY POINTS: Western weaknesses in lithium-ion supply chains will slow electric vehicle adoption and demonstrate China’s dominance of the EV (electric vehicle) market. . . .
Western leaders are ignoring the trillion-ton elephant in the room. Carbon-free power and gasoline-free transportation cannot exist without mining an absurd amount of lithium. Right now, production is not even close to keeping up.​

Fortunately the US has more lithium than it could ever use under the Salton Sea. And we are already pumping those brines.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3226974/california-lithium-gold-rush-edge-dying-sea

 

[C C]

Fortunately the US has more lithium than it could ever use under the Salton Sea. And we are already pumping those brines.

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3226974/california-lithium-gold-rush-edge-dying-sea

It's just that, though. Nanny-state California. Shut things down if there's a hint of environmental damage or health threat; or burden companies with costly restrictions and impediments; tax an industry to death; bury them in litigation if someone gets a rash, etc.

And the threat of earthquakes (below) is as huge a rodent attractant for bureaucrats, politicians, lawyers, activists, etc as the latter could ever hope for. But minus the usage of it in a rat trap for them.

Nah, cynical expectations aside, I hope it works out. Would just feel better if it was someplace else, like flyover country.

Could the rush for lithium near California's Salton Sea trigger earthquakes?
https://phys.org/news/2023-05-lithium-california-salton-sea-trigger.html

EXCERPTS: They wonder, could decades of drilling thousands of feet into the Earth's crust and pumping out boiling brine to make renewable energy be causing some of these quakes? And could drilling and testing in the area by companies rushing to extract lithium needed for electric vehicle batteries be increasing the risk?

Those were among the concerns raised by some 50 residents who attended a community meeting May 15 at a Niland elementary school, where they asked a team of researchers about new lithium extraction and geothermal projects underway in the area.

"They always ask about seismicity and earthquakes, and how much of that is natural and how much might be due to geothermal power production," noted Michael McKibben, a geology research professor from UC Riverside who helped lead that presentation.

Turns out, for a variety of reasons we'll get to soon, that's a tough question to answer in this region.

But seismologists say one thing is clear: Anytime we drill thousands of feet into the ground, and monkey around with pressure in the Earth's crust, there's a potential for triggering earthquakes.

[...] "We know someday it's going to pop," said William Ellsworth, a geophysics professor at Stanford University.

That's got some people worried about whether energy projects at the Salton Sea could be putting the region—and much of Southern California—at greater risk for a major earthquake.

"I am definitely concerned about this," said Jeremy Merrill, who lives in east San Diego County and received email notifications about the recent swarm. (MORE - missing details)​

 

[billvon]

They wonder, could decades of drilling thousands of feet into the Earth's crust and pumping out boiling brine to make renewable energy be causing some of these quakes? And could drilling and testing in the area by companies rushing to extract lithium needed for electric vehicle batteries be increasing the risk?

That's dumb. The wells are already there.

Would just feel better if it was someplace else, like flyover country.

This area is about as flyover as it gets. It's a toxic wasteland caused by all the agricultural runoff.

​

 

[C C]

https://www.sciforums.com/threads/does-ev-cars-really-reduce-co2-emission.166087/#post-3717274

And the following added for those who'd rather watch the issues conveniently gathered-up in a video.

Sabine: "Still, I think it’s the most realistic way to decarbonize transportation and I believe in a hundred years it’ll turn out having been worth the investment."​

Sounds good to us. We expect to still be here by then, or will just take the Temporal Teleportation Bus to move to that century and bypass the intervening chaos.

One item possibly left out of the Hossenfelder video below: EVs having arguably shorter "used car" viability.

The truth behind the resale value of electric cars: [...] The third factor is battery capacity. EV batteries are notoriously for having a limited lifespan, which affects a car's value if it is not kept in pristine condition. Around the eight-year mark, most electric car batteries have degraded and need to be replaced with a new one, according to Forbes.

Resale value of electric vehicles: [...] some researchers contend that how an EVs battery was cared for has a more significant influence on value than the number of miles it was driven. According to Scott Case, the co-founder and CEO of the EV research firm Recurrent, “Odometers are the rule of thumb that has always been used to determine the value of a used car - but it simply doesn’t make sense with electric cars.”
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RANDOM VIDEO EXCERPTS: . . . And this isn’t half of it. Because in the long run, all transmission lines must be upgraded [...] by 2035, the costs for the entire upgrade in the US will reach approximately 2 point 5 trillion US dollars. ... the grid upgrade in the US might reach more than 22 trillion by 2050...

[...] And it’ll have to be done swiftly. By 2050, about 1 million miles of new transmission lines would be needed. To put this number into perspective, in the decade from 2010 to 2020 the US added about 18,000 miles. So this means they’d have to get it done more than 20 times faster in the coming decades.

[...] The production of electric vehicles has a larger carbon footprint, but it goes in favour of electric motors that they are more efficient than combustion engines. Still, eventually how much carbon dioxide an electric vehicle produces per distance driven depends on what its energy was produced with. If the power grid is fed with, say, brown coal, that can actually produce more emissions for electric vehicles than for combustion engines.

[...] Despite many countries’ efforts, the deployment of charging stations is uneven and especially in rural areas it might be hard to find one. This for example is a map of charging stations in the EU. If you live in France, but not in Paris, well good luck.

To make matters worse, a significant fraction of the existing charging stations are out of order at any given time, in the US it was about 1 in 5 in 2022. In the UK, the numbers are similar [...] And then there are other reasons for why the car might not charge, such as problems with the connectors, issues with the mobile app you need for payment, or your husband who forgot to plug in the cable.

Ok, not all is going smoothly, but that’s birthing pain, you might say. It’ll pass ... the situation will likely improve in the coming years...

[...] Just exactly how long it takes to fully charge a car with depends on many things, but roughly, the slow charger takes a day, the fast charger a few hours, and the rapid charger half an hour or so to get the battery to 80 percent. They usually stop there because the last 20 percent take much longer. ​

Go to the 2:55 mark if you want to bypass the introductory hybrid stuff.

(link) Electric cars: Does the transition make sense?

 

[C C]

(recent) Are Electric Vehicles Worth It?
https://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/are-electric-vehicles-worth-it/

EXCERPTS (Steven Novella): . . . I also have to say, I own a Tesla and it’s the best car I ever owned.

[...] The main point is that EVs are more expensive and carbon-intensive to build, so they are not as green as people may think. This is old news, however. ... If you do a lifetime analysis, EVs are much superior to equivalent ICE vehicles. It’s no contest...

[...] But there are some legitimate issues we need to confront...

[...] All of this also points to the need to build out our infrastructure of charging stations. There needs to be a string of charging stations along every highway. They need to be as ubiquitous as gas stations, perhaps more so. This is a good investment, and will reduce range anxiety and therefore the unsustainable drive for larger and larger batteries... (MORE - missing details)
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[Saint]

Why is Rhodes island heating and burning? EV car can save the world from extreme climate?

 

[billvon]

Why is Rhodes island heating and burning? EV car can save the world from extreme climate?

Nope. But EVs can be part of a move to lower carbon emissions. Carbon emissions are the primary driver for climate change.

 

[Saint]

Volcano eruption will add CO2 emission too.

 

[Sarkus]

Volcano eruption will add CO2 emission too.

Sure. But an almost insignificant amount compared to human activity.
It is estimated that all on-land and underwater volcanoes add about c.0.4 billion tonnes of CO2 to the atmosphere per year. Human activity adds about 35 billion tonnes. Of this, passenger cars contribute about 3 billion, so around 8-9% of the human total. Volcanoes (in total) are c.10% of passenger cars, and less than 1% of what humans produce overall.

Climate-change deniers tend to post fake numbers regarding volcanoes, such as here and here, although this last example was at least taken down as failing Facebook's fact-checking. Unfortunately others (such as the first example) are still posting, and believing, the fake numbers.
Please don't fall into the same trap.

 

[exchemist]

Sure. But an almost insignificant amount compared to human activity.
It is estimated that all on-land and underwater volcanoes add about c.0.4 billion tonnes of CO2 to the atmosphere per year. Human activity adds about 35 billion tonnes. Of this, passenger cars contribute about 3 billion, so around 8-9% of the human total. Volcanoes (in total) are c.10% of passenger cars, and less than 1% of what humans produce overall.

Climate-change deniers tend to post fake numbers regarding volcanoes, such as here and here, although this last example was at least taken down as failing Facebook's fact-checking. Unfortunately others (such as the first example) are still posting, and believing, the fake numbers.
Please don't fall into the same trap.

Also it has to be remembered that volcanic CO2 emission is part of a tectonic carbon cycle, coming from carbon trapped in subducted carbonate sediments. So it is, to a large degree at least, not a net emission over the long term.

 

[C C]

Volcano eruption will add CO2 emission too.

Climate change is real. But it is also political.

On the legit left, its threat is appropriated as a golden opportunity or justification to implement socioeconomic agenda. Progressive capitalists additionally exploit it for greenwashing and other profitable "virtue facilitated" ventures.

In response, the right goes on its disinformation campaign that there is no climate change, or that it is solely caused by natural forces, or is a temporary illusion, etc. And like their progressive counterparts, there's money to made or careers to be maintained by playing the opposite role of foil, advancing conspiracies, etc.

Volcanic eruptions can perhaps go either way, in conjunction with other factors. Sunlight reflecting aerosols released into the atmosphere may have spurred cold climatic shifts.[1] But unusual periods of massive or numerous volcanic eruptions can also stimulate the end of ice ages.[2]

We're arguably in a tame interval of geological activity. While there is the occasional spectacular event, these are isolated time-wise rather than extended uproars spanning decades/centuries and multiple converging eruptions.

In terms of Milankovitch Cycle developments, we should be getting colder overall (albeit not an ice age as predicted in the 1970s), but human activity has been causing the contrary. Because of the complexity of this destabilization slash transition, ferocious winters can be generated in some areas as much as hot, arid summers. At some point in the future the radical swinging back and forth should wane and more of a Greenhous Earth situation will dominate, barring a shocking curtailing of human industry.

Next glacial period: Based on past estimates for interglacial durations of about 10,000 years, in the 1970s there was some concern that the next glacial period would be imminent. However, slight changes in the eccentricity of Earth's orbit around the Sun suggest a lengthy interglacial period lasting about another 50,000 years. Additionally, human impact is now seen as possibly extending what would already be an unusually long warm period. [...] However, more recent studies concluded that the amount of heat trapping gases emitted into Earth's oceans and atmosphere will prevent the next glacial (ice age), which otherwise would begin in around 50,000 years, and likely more glacial cycles.​

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[1] Little Ice Age Volcanism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Ice_Age_volcanism

Little Ice Age volcanism refers to the massive volcanic activities during the Little Ice Age. Scientists suggested a hypothesis that volcanism was the major driving force of the global cooling among the other natural factors, i.e. the sunspot activities by orbital forcing and greenhouse gas.

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[2] How did 'Snowball Earth' end? Scientists blame underwater volcanos.
https://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2...arth-end-Scientists-blame-underwater-volcanos

According to the study authors, over those millions of years, the carbon dioxide emissions from underwater volcanos were building up. That accumulation was significant enough to swing the atmosphere into warming, leading to accelerated ice melt. (Snowball Earth)

Two centuries of continuous volcanic eruption may have triggered the end of the [recent] ice age
https://theconversation.com/two-cen...y-have-triggered-the-end-of-the-ice-age-83420

Antarctica has always been home to globally significant volcanoes. However, 17,700 years ago a unique event began: nearly continuous volcanic eruptions over 192 years that spewed huge amounts of chemicals known as halogens into the Antarctic atmosphere. These halogens – including powerful ozone destroyers bromine, chloride and iodine – created a hole in the ozone layer, which was in many ways similar to the modern hole triggered by humans’ use of halogen-containing compounds called CFCs. This led to large-scale changes in atmospheric circulation and initiated the shift away from a glacial climate state.
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