Does being Jewish have any meaning outside of religion?

Seattle

Valued Senior Member
Many people say that they are Jewish but not religious. They say that they just identify with the culture and traditions.

Does this make any sense? "Jewish" isn't a race, it isn't a culture that applies to everyone who is Jewish in the religious sense so therefore it seems to me "Jewish" only has meaning in a religious sense.

To apply this to current events. I see that some Jewish people who currently live in France are moving to Israel to escape persecution (or rather terrorism). I don't know whether they are largely religious or not but if they are not does this make sense?

Actually, Israel itself is largely secular. If one is being persecuted for being Jewish and if one isn't religious why would one chose to self-identify as Jewish when that is largely a meaningless term as applied to them?
 
Good question. Like most other religions, Judaism contains people of diverse degrees of religious observance from the extreme orthodox (fundamentalist) to reform to agnostic and even atheist.

Judaism is not alone in being a religious tradition that has been persecuted. Christians, Muslims, Zoastrians, and other faiths have been subject to the equivalent of pograms or other means of expulsion from various countries throughout Europe and the Middle East. In fact, no faith I can think of has been able to escape some degree of persecution throughout history.

The dynamic of Judaic tradition that makes it worth keeping has little to do with an actual deity. Jewish children were reading the Torah in Hebrew centuries before Catholics even had a religious text to read that resided outside of the Vatican. The ability to read and write fostered by such tradition is a huge step up from being illiterate, as congregants of other faiths were for millennia before any of them could even self-identify with a religious tradition or faith. The downside of such a forward looking tradition is, unfortunately, mistrust by other traditions, particularly when they must depend on local Jews to be able to read or to count for them to conduct business. Other traditions' religious texts were translated from Greek or Roman versions of our original text, often with polytheistic elements added which were never intended by the original. The Greeks (Alexander the Great) conquered the Jews and attempted assimilation of them into Greek culture. Even the Torah contains remnants of some of their ideas, for historic reasons related to the loss of a written version of the original text.

Judaism is a rich tradition, (no pun, particularly ones related to wealth, is intended here). Learning of any sort is encouraged and science and math in particular are encouraged without encumbrance by adherence to scripture as an idol or as though it were a sin to think of it as other than the unerring word of a deity or a religious leader or prophet who is worshiped in place of a deity in violation of the first commandment. The Torah has the status of a person. Burn all of those, if you wish. The crime is no worse than murder, for it is not an idol. You cannot blaspheme or mock our deity because you assuredly do not know his / her / its name. We can be certain of this mainly because we don't know either. Make all the graven images of our deity you wish, but don't expect any of us to be impressed, much less worship it. But killing you for creating such a depiction or mocking or making light of it is not to be found anywhere in our tradition. Since we are unable to blaspheme, you can't either.

Even the most orthodox among us no longer observes sanctions from our creator or prophets for killing anyone. Assuredly such things are in there. We simply ignore them.

But we are forbidden to promote our faith to members of other faiths, and to do this is a sin. If you try to join, you will be discouraged. There is probably not very much wrong with your own faith, so by all means, stay there and fix it. It isn't as hard as you may think. Try to get it right this time for a change. At least, we will never persecute you for doing that.
 
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I'm a Jew in that my ancestors were Jews. Most of my living relatives are Jews. Jewishness is a far from clearly delineated ethnicity and a culture, which was, unfortunately, preserved by religion. I'm happy to leave it behind, but many Jews feel that total assimilation is a kind of tragedy.
 
"Jew" or "Jewish" mean three things, which are closely related.

1. The obvious meaning is: a person who follows the Jewish religion.
2. But the meaning that Hitler and most other antisemites use is: a person of Jewish ancestry. This is not as difficult to work with as it seems, because a mere three or four generations ago, almost all people who were identified as Jewish were of Jewish ancestry (see below for a more precise discussion of this point) and followed the religion. In other words, this definition is based on DNA.
3. Today, "Jewish" can refer to any person who is a member of the Jewish community. This can include converts (which are rather uncommon), but it can also include people of unclear ancestry who don't even attend religious services, but nonetheless socialize primarily with people who are Jewish by faith or by genetics.

In the USA, where the majority of people who identify themselves as Jewish are not very religious and have quite a few Gentiles in their family tree, Definition #3 is the most common.

In Israel, you have to be Jewish by ancestry to be counted as a Jew and to gain citizenship. If you're not, then you have to convert to the religion, which takes a lot of work. This is most commonly done by the non-Jewish spouses of Jewish citizens. For a man, it requires a circumcision (if that's not already done) and a full-scale bar mitzvah, which requires a reasonable command of the Hebrew language, knowledge of the culture, and fulfillment of a promise of charity.

It's considerably easier for a woman, since the Jewish definition of "Jewish" is: born to a Jewish mother. In the past the Jews lived under many hostile regimes and many Jewish women were raped by Gentiles, Turks, etc. If a male Jewish citizen of Israel is married to a Gentile woman, their children are not Jewish! So the elders of the family make it as easy as possible for the non-Jewish wife to become Jewish. That guarantees that their grandchildren will be Jewish!
 
Many people say that they are Jewish but not religious.
Yes, that's correct. Judaism is the ethnic religion of the Jews, just as Hellenismos was/is the ethnic religion of the Hellenes. But one does not need to practise Hellenismos to be ethnically Greek (and one can practise Hellenismos without being Greek). Likewise, one need not practise Judaism to still be considered ethnically Jewish (and one can practise Judaism without being born to a Jewish family). Though even that comparison isn't entirely point-for-point, and it is true that the bond between ethnicity and religion is much stronger in the Jewish community. But the point still stands:
There are cultural, historical, geographic, and linguistic facets to "Jewishness" outside of religion. A sense of belonging to a cultural-historical community is the overriding understanding of what it means to be a Jew. It's just that a specific set of religious practices and beliefs has had a significant role in the construction of that community over the past two and a half thousand years.
 
Since I'm an atheist I treat everyone the same no matter what religious or ethnic makeup they might have. eems I'm accepted by more people because of my tolerance and respect of everyone I meet. I don't know what it is like being Jewish but have been to a few Bar Mitzvahs and Jewish weddings and have a few friends who are Jewish. I also don't ask what religions people are whenever I meet them and accept them and treat them as they treat me. I've also been to a few Jewish funerals as well. We are all the same, to me, and should just try to get along as we can because it takes all kinds of people to make the world go round.
 
Since I'm an atheist I treat everyone the same no matter what religious or ethnic makeup they might have. eems I'm accepted by more people because of my tolerance and respect of everyone I meet. I don't know what it is like being Jewish but have been to a few Bar Mitzvahs and Jewish weddings and have a few friends who are Jewish. I also don't ask what religions people are whenever I meet them and accept them and treat them as they treat me. I've also been to a few Jewish funerals as well. We are all the same, to me, and should just try to get along as we can because it takes all kinds of people to make the world go round.
Wow, I've never been to a Bar Mitzvah, Jewish wedding, or funeral, and I don't think I have any Jewish friends outside of family. I am interested in what people believe, but I try to judge them as individuals. However, being theistic does usually lower my (private) opinion of them.
 
Wow, I've never been to a Bar Mitzvah, Jewish wedding, or funeral, and I don't think I have any Jewish friends outside of family. I am interested in what people believe, but I try to judge them as individuals. However, being theistic does usually lower my (private) opinion of them.

I went to my friend Ikes's Bar Mitzvah when he turned 13, we were friends and lived close to each other and went to school together. My business partner Yourm was with me for 8 years and got married while working together before he died doing Plumbing and Electrical work together as he needed a Master to let him work on his own. He paid me a fee for using my licence to do work for himself but we did have jobs together once an a while.
 
... it seems to me "Jewish" only has meaning in a religious sense.
In our Western society, religion may seem to be separate from culture but in many/most others, culture and religion are more closely and tightly intertwined.
 
I also have Muslim friends as well and I get along with them as easily I get along with other religious types I know.
 
Does this make any sense? "Jewish" isn't a race, it isn't a culture that applies to everyone who is Jewish in the religious sense so therefore it seems to me "Jewish" only has meaning in a religious sense.
In many cases it is a race. Google Ashkenazi Jews for an example.
 
So Jewish by itself is not a race.
===================================
Jews Are a 'Race,' Genes Reveal
Author Uncovers DNA Links Between Members of Tribe


By Jon Entine
Published May 04, 2012, issue of May 11, 2012.

Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jewish People
By Harry Ostrer
Oxford University Press, 288 Pages, $24.95

In his new book, “Legacy: A Genetic History of the Jewish People,” Harry Ostrer, a medical geneticist and professor at Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York, claims that Jews are different, and the differences are not just skin deep. Jews exhibit, he writes, a distinctive genetic signature. Considering that the Nazis tried to exterminate Jews based on their supposed racial distinctiveness, such a conclusion might be a cause for concern. But Ostrer sees it as central to Jewish identity.

“Who is a Jew?” has been a poignant question for Jews throughout our history. It evokes a complex tapestry of Jewish identity made up of different strains of religious beliefs, cultural practices and blood ties to ancient Palestine and modern Israel. But the question, with its echoes of genetic determinism, also has a dark side.

Geneticists have long been aware that certain diseases, from breast cancer to Tay-Sachs, disproportionately affect Jews. Ostrer, who is also director of genetic and genomic testing at Montefiore Medical Center, goes further, maintaining that Jews are a homogeneous group with all the scientific trappings of what we used to call a “race.”

For most of the 3,000-year history of the Jewish people, the notion of what came to be known as “Jewish exceptionalism” was hardly controversial. Because of our history of inmarriage and cultural isolation, imposed or self-selected, Jews were considered by gentiles (and usually referred to themselves) as a “race.” Scholars from Josephus to Disraeli proudly proclaimed their membership in “the tribe.”

Ostrer explains how this concept took on special meaning in the 20th century, as genetics emerged as a viable scientific enterprise. Jewish distinctiveness might actually be measurable empirically. In “Legacy,” he first introduces us to Maurice Fishberg, an upwardly mobile Russian-Jewish immigrant to New York at the fin de siècle. Fishberg fervently embraced the anthropological fashion of the era, measuring skull sizes to explain why Jews seemed to be afflicted with more diseases than other groups — what he called the “peculiarities of the comparative pathology of the Jews.” It turns out that Fishberg and his contemporary phrenologists were wrong: Skull shape provides limited information about human differences. But his studies ushered in a century of research linking Jews to genetics.

Ostrer divides his book into six chapters representing the various aspects of Jewishness: Looking Jewish, Founders, Genealogies, Tribes, Traits and Identity. Each chapter features a prominent scientist or historical figure who dramatically advanced our understanding of Jewishness. The snippets of biography lighten a dense forest of sometimes-obscure science. The narrative, which consists of a lot of potboiler history, is a slog at times. But for the specialist and anyone touched by the enduring debate over Jewish identity, this book is indispensable.

“Legacy” may cause its readers discomfort. To some Jews, the notion of a genetically related people is an embarrassing remnant of early Zionism that came into vogue at the height of the Western obsession with race, in the late 19th century. Celebrating blood ancestry is divisive, they claim: The authors of “The Bell Curve” were vilified 15 years ago for suggesting that genes play a major role in IQ differences among racial groups.
===================================================
Read more: http://forward.com/articles/155742/jews-are-a-race-genes-reveal/?p=all#ixzz3Q9ND9hoW
 
Given that one can become Jewish with any racial background all who are Jewish can't all be of one race.
 
Given that one can become Jewish with any racial background all who are Jewish can't all be of one race.
Agreed. But you asked "does being Jewish have any meaning outside of religion?" and it looks like it does. Most Jews share common genetic traits.
 
Most Baptists are white but being Baptist isn't considered to be a race as some Baptists are black as well.
 
Many people say that they are Jewish but not religious. They say that they just identify with the culture and traditions.

Does this make any sense? "Jewish" isn't a race, it isn't a culture that applies to everyone who is Jewish in the religious sense so therefore it seems to me "Jewish" only has meaning in a religious sense.

To apply this to current events. I see that some Jewish people who currently live in France are moving to Israel to escape persecution (or rather terrorism). I don't know whether they are largely religious or not but if they are not does this make sense?

Actually, Israel itself is largely secular. If one is being persecuted for being Jewish and if one isn't religious why would one chose to self-identify as Jewish when that is largely a meaningless term as applied to them?

There are moderate genetic differences in some elements of the nuclear and/or mtDNA genome between Jewish people and outgroups, with less distance between Occidental Jews and Ashkenazim Jews, and between Jews generally and other Levantine populations. Genetic distance between Jews and other Eurasian groups generally increases with distance. It's about what you'd expect; there are some differences in mtDNA vs nuclear (Y-chromosome) differentiation, as there always are. I'd expect that there would be increased mtDNA divergence since classically Judaism is traced matrilinearly, but I can't remember if that's so or not. One likes to make these propositions based on social organisation, but I think humans usually defy that kind of thing.
 
Most Baptists are white but being Baptist isn't considered to be a race as some Baptists are black as well.
Also agreed. And some Africans are white; I know a few. Still, "African-American" is considered a race in the US. It would be silly to say that there are no races because there are exceptions to each definition.
 
It would also be silly to say that Baptists are a race.
Definitely. But it would not be silly to say Jews are a race.

Consider the case of a doctor treating a patient. He does not care what religion the patient is, since religion does not affect how he diagnoses people or prescribes medication. But he does care whether or not they are Jewish due to the increased incidence of Tay-Sachs in that race, just as he cares whether they are black since that would affect his decision to prescribe Bidil.
 
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