Do the really unfortunate beleive in god?

B

blackmonkeystatue

Unregistered User
Registered Senior Member
First off, I understand that this may be an incredibly narrow minded question. I'm a Catholic, and I understand that the only reason I'm a Catholic and that I beleive in what I beleive is because I was raised this way. That I could just as easily been born in another country and brought up as a different religion, beleiving in another god, many gods, or no god at all--I understand that. I also understand that if I was raised in a different religion, or with no religion at all, and not ever exposed to Catholocism I wouldn't be any more wrong, or any more right. I just wanted to establish that so everything and everyone is on equal ground.

What my question is, would some really unfortunate person on another country beleive in god? I was flipping through my sociology book today during philosophy class and I saw a picture of a small African boy, maybe 3 years old, laying face down in the dirt. His stomach was swollen huge, he was incredibly skinny, and there was a vulture standing a little ways behind him on the ground watching him. Does he beleive in god? Could he? And if it's said that he's too young to understand the concept of god, would someone older, but with the same misfortune beleive in this all knowing (aware of his suffering), all loving god? I know it's easy for us (read: me) to say that a god exists sitting here at my computer, sipping orange juice in a large house with cars and even motorcycles in the garage. It's easy to say that because I have more than I way need (and sadly take it for granted constantly), things are great about 90% of the time, and anything I still want costs over $100,000. It's easy for me to say, I have all of this...as do most of us using the internet. But could he? He's probably never been happy in his life. Always hungry. A bird behind him just waiting for him to die like his friends and relatives have. Could he beleive in god? If he couldn't, then how could this all loving god exist? God should be an objective thing. And yeah I know just because some group of people don't beleive in god it doesnt mean he doesn't exist, but that's not what I mean. What I mean is if this all loving, all knowing god exists he should seem to exist to everyone--it's not like like this child turned away. It's like the only reason we believe in what we believe, and say the things we do, and take god for a given is because we can. We don't have any hardships to prove to us otherwise. And by hardships I don't mean what the people in regular 3rd world countries have, I mean starving to death, rotting--some really rough shit. Beleif in god and other things in the realm of mysticism decreases with education and 3rd world countries have little to no education, and that's not what I mean. Does god let others suffer so we can see how lucky we are? Are they just fodder that aren't worth as much as we are? Just props in some sad educational video? I don't understand that. God is supposed to be an all knowing and all loving father...I don't know any father who would let that happen to their children. A child that young has had no time to make or break his relationship with anyone. It doesn't make sense...but suprise suprise, how many things that have to do with religion do? Honestly, it's one of the first times I've seriously doubted the existence of god--seriously. If anyone could help me understand (in either direction) I'd be greatly obliged. And please don't give me any "god works in mysterious ways" bullshit. That's a non-answer, the same shit I've always been told--it doesn't go anywhere. If that's your response, then please don't respond because you simply dont know--I don't know either and I'm perfectly content stating so.

PS- I didn't capitalize "god" because I understand not everyone believes in a monotheistic god (or a god at all), and in that region in the world there may be many "gods." Not too up on world religions, but wanted to be safe about it.
 
In my experience the more unfortunate a person is, the more likely they are to believe in "God".
Perhaps it is because they have a greater need to believe in him.
Or maybe it is due to their lack of education and not being exposed to other philosophical belief systems.
Maybe it is the Christain missionaries that prey on third world countires.
Maybe a combination of factors.

By the way, your other questions...
Try Looking Here
 
Minor point on "God" versus "god". The Christians have named their god God. We usually capitalize names so it is proper to capitalize God. When we refer to the generic concept of a god (a simple noun) then of course we would not capitalize.

It is perhaps confusing that the Christian god has the name God.

Kat
 
Regarding unfortunate people and the suffering in the world - consider a world where there are no gods and where mankind has been slowly learning about his environment and has yet to implement any form of world government or global equiatable economic and health systems.

Given that scenario then what you observe fits exactly.

If an all powerful and truly loving fatherly god existed who had the ability to create a world where suffering did not exist then why would he not do so? One could argue that we have to learn from our mistakes and that we are basiclaly bad and are being punished - none of which sits well with an 'all-loving' god, expecially not the creater and designer of man. One must ask why he would create a species that was capable of being bad and needed to be punished - was he incompetent or perhaps he simply isn't all-powerful.

What we observe is perfectly consistent with a world where there is no god or gods. When the religionists try to correlate the observations with a god concept then they have to jump through hoops trying to make it fit - and it really doesn't.

Kat
 
BMS,

You depicted a picture of a kid in some african country. I had seen an old woman lying on the street in a well developed country. She has none to lookafter and none to care her. The passersby just ignored and proceeded with their own business. She had no, absolutely no hope, for the future. In her eyes you could see the frustration and fear for the humanity. The old age homes were not ready to take any more orphans in as they were aready full. Would she believe in god.? for that matter would she even believe in humanity.? Waiting for the end that would solve her misery. I was relieved when she ended up in a more secure place, a small shed of a good samaritan. For the less fortunate it is fellow human being that has a kind heart is an angel of God.

Back to the kid you mentioned. Why those countries kept that way is a big social and political question. Lack of education and social & political infrastructures that would not let individual members on the dust. It is incumbant on the humanity to achieve this and failing that is a collective sin. God's agenda not necessarily orignate in churches or anyother religious instituitions. Those who try to change the pathetic situation of their country will HAVE the guidance and strength from god or from their noble conviction. They are interchangeable, IMO. Those who neglect their collective responsibilty have no escape, no matter whom they try to get redemption - Jesus, Allah or any other deity.
 
blackmonkeystatue,

I'm a Catholic, and I understand that the only reason I'm a Catholic and that I beleive in what I beleive is because I was raised this way.

What exactly do you believe, and why do you believe it?


What my question is, would some really unfortunate person on another country beleive in god?

The chances of a really unfortunate person in any country believing in God are slim.
Of course it depends on what you define as unfortunate.


What I mean is if this all loving, all knowing god exists he should seem to exist to everyone--it's not like like this child turned away.

You seem to judge everyone by your standard, your method and understanding of belief, God and good or bad fortune. The question you raise cannot be answered by such narrow-mindedness.

Jan Ardena.
 
Katazia,

If an all powerful and truly loving fatherly god existed who had the ability to create a world where suffering did not exist then why would he not do so?

How do you know there is no world where there is no suffering?
We suffer because we are greedy, envious and lustful, it is because of such vices we suffer, not only humans, but all forms of life. We develop these vices because we are independant, meaning we are capable of making choices. This capability is what makes us human. Humans have the choice of whether to suffer (to create suffering) or not, so in answer to your question, this world was created without suffering.

One could argue that we have to learn from our mistakes and that we are basiclaly bad and are being punished - none of which sits well with an 'all-loving' god, expecially not the creater and designer of man.

Do you like being told what to do, when and how to do it?

One must ask why he would create a species that was capable of being bad and needed to be punished - was he incompetent or perhaps he simply isn't all-powerful.

Firstly, how could He have been incompetant, He created the human species, and millions of other species of life. The other question is, is He incompetant because we have independance, i doubt that very much. To say He is incompetant is the equivilent of saying "God did it" without having any understanding of what and who God is. It is not impossible for us humans to create a situation in the world in which suffering is seriously minimised, which proves that if God did create this world, He created it without suffering.

Jan Ardena.
 
Jan Ardena,

If God was all powerful and wanted to create a species free of suffering and capable of making better choices why would he not design us with triple+ intelligence and with personalities more conducive to be compassionate and not greedy?

If we were designed and are apparently deficient then those defects are the result of poor and incompetent design. Any manufacturer who produces something that doesn’t work properly will issue a recall and will trash the failed design.

Once you discard the god/design argument then an unguided evolved human race fits perfectly with the currently messy world we observe.

Kat
 
Katazia/

If God was all powerful and wanted to create a species free of sufferingand capable of making better choices....

What is wrong with our choice-making mechcanism? The whole point of "choice" is to choose, which we do perfectly.

..... why would he not design us with triple+ intelligence and with personalities more conducive to be compassionate and not greedy?

We have all the intelligence we need to create great societies where suffering is almost non-existent. What more intelligence is needed than that?

If we were designed and are apparently deficient then those defects are the result of poor and incompetent design.

No, those deficiancies are the result of our own ignorance. This world is not designed to stay in, that is to say, God does not want us to become complacent in this environment, it is His wish that we give up this hopeless struggle for existence and go back to His Kingdom, which is eternal, blissfull and full of knowledge. But instead we foolishly try and create that situation here, where there is no chance of it happening. The incompetance is our own doing.

Any manufacturer who produces something that doesn’t work properly will issue a recall and will trash the failed design.

Noah and his ark springs to mind.

Once you discard the god/design argument then an unguided evolved human race fits perfectly with the currently messy world we observe.

Why should we be satisfied with something that only "fits", it is much more beneficial to see the whole picture IMO.

Jan Ardena.
 
Jan Ardena,

If we could all choose perfectly then the world would be perfect - we don't and it isn't so your statement is false.

If we had the intelligence to create great society why didn't we do it several millenia ago? And he designed us with lust and greed because?

If the deficiencies are the result of our ignorance why were we designed as ignorant then? Ignorance is therefore one of the design deficiencies.

Noah - so God is incompetant then. A good designer would have got it right the first time.

We 'fit' the current universe because we evolved into it - we have had no choice in our own evolution so far.

Kat
 
Katazia,

If we could all choose perfectly then the world would be perfect - we don't and it isn't so your statement is false.

I didn't say what we choose is perfect, i said the choice mechanism is perfect, meaning we are all able to choose without any difficulty whatsoever.

If we had the intelligence to create great society why didn't we do it several millenia ago?

First off, society is deteriorating rapidly, which logically means there was a time when society was great by comparison to now. Secondly, an intelligent person is so because of the choices they make. How many people do you know make silly mistakes, learn from them, and cease to make them in the future? We (mostly) have the intelligence to put a lid on vices, to realise that it is of no benifit to us, but it is down to the choices we make.

And he designed us with lust and greed because?

No, He designed us in His image which means we have will. Lust and greed are words which describe the quality of consciousness. These arrive through lack of understanding of our true selves, and becoming slaves to our bodily senses. Again, these are choices we make.

If the deficiencies are the result of our ignorance why were we designed as ignorant then? Ignorance is therefore one of the design deficiencies.

Read above.

Noah - so God is incompetant then. A good designer would have got it right the first time.

He did get it right. Humans got it terribly wrong. God is totally competant, He designed us with a free-will, and He allows us this benifit in spite of any situation, in which it can be used. The free-will gives us a choice, we can
try to lord it, or we can surrender to the Supreme Will, it is entirely our choice.
The reason for the flood was that there was no hope for the human society past, present or future, the dis-ease had permeated through every living being. All humans (all but a few) had lost all the qualities of a human being which made them no better than animals.

We 'fit' the current universe because we evolved into it - we have had no choice in our own evolution so far.

Maybe there is some truth in what you are saying, but it does not explain the origin of neither the universe or us. Chance or randomness is not, IMO, an adequate explanation, it is an illumination of not knowing, ignorance.

Jan Ardena.
 
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