Do Positive Reasons Exist to be Vegetarian?

entelecheia

Registered Senior Member
Ethical reasons are not yet clarified http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-animal/

COULD YOU QUOTE RELIABLE SOURCES WHETHER IN FAVOR OR AGAINST THE FOLLOWING CLAIMS?:

1. The physiology of human stomach can't be clasified as omnivore, it secretes hydrochloric acid, while carnivorous animals secretes ammoniacal salts (alkaline).
2. Meat releases a toxic substance called putrescine. Beef takes up to 3 days to digest completely.
3. Can we trust 100% in the transparency of meat producers? antibiotics, hormones, and fattening agents applied to animals could cause us illnesses in the long term.
4. Some essential aminoacids exist only in animal sources.
5. In the Louis Kuhne's book The New Science of Healing (1899) he claims vegetarian physicians did an experiment of raising many healthier vegetarian generations.

Which reasons would consider a pure rationalist for being a vegetarian?
http://www.ivu.org/history/greece_rome/pythagoras.html
http://www.ivu.org/history/northam20a/einstein.html
 
Some people are vegetarians because they were raised that way. Some are vegetarians because they just don't like meat. (Mrs. Fraggle falls into that category.) But these days, quite a few people have converted to vegetarianism because they just don't like the idea of killing other creatures just to eat them, when it is possible to put together a nutritionally satisfactory diet with no animal flesh.

Vegan diets are more difficult to put together because the protein from milk and eggs is the mainstay of many vegetarian diets; protein from plant sources is difficult to balance, especially without eating other parts of the plant that are not necessarily healthy in large doses. But I find the vegan philosophy difficult to relate to. Everyone on this planet has a job to do, and if the job of a cow is to give milk and the job of a chicken is to lay eggs, why is that any worse than the jobs we do, so long as they're treated well. (Which, admittedly, these days, they aren't. But let's solve that problem.)

COULD YOU QUOTE RELIABLE SOURCES WHETHER IN FAVOR OR AGAINST THE FOLLOWING CLAIMS?
Probably not, since this is not my field of expertise. But some of this stuff qualifies as "extraordinary claims" so by the Rule of Laplace it had better be supported by extraordinary evidence before the responsibility falls on us to disprove it.

1. The physiology of human stomach can't be clasified as omnivore, it secretes hydrochloric acid, while carnivorous animals secretes ammoniacal salts (alkaline).
Balderdash. Our first bipedal ancestors 7 million years ago were herbivores, but before long they learned to make tools out of flint and they began eating meat. First it was meat those blades could scrape off the bones left by predators, but then they learned how to use blades and spears to hunt. The enormous increase in the protein in their diet allowed their brains to quadruple in size, eventually leading to our species about 200,000 years ago. At that point humans were obligate carnivores. We could not live without the concentrated protein in meat. Sure, grains and legumes have plenty of protein, but our digestive systems can't extract it from the tough protective tissue unless it's cooked, and the technology of controlled fire had just barely been invented.

Meat remained our primary sustenance until the Agricultural Revolution, a mere 12 thousand years ago. This is only a few hundred generation for a species like ours with such a long maturity cycle, and a few hundred generations is not long enough for a major mutation like adaptation to a new food source. [Although about half the human population adapted to be able to digest milk about ten thousand years ago, an ability most mammals lose when they're weaned, as well as many people in regions were dairy farming was not introduced until recently.] We are still cavemen and we still need meat. With agriculture we learned to use cooked wheat, corn, rice and other grains, as well as soy and other kinds of beans. But we didn't understand that that is not a complete diet despite the protein content. By the era of the Roman Empire, when the population was so large that most people didn't have access to meat and had to subsist on bread, the average lifespan of an adult who had survived childhood was about 23 years. Everyone except the aristocrats simply died of malnutrion: insufficient vitamins and minerals.

Today we know about vitamins and minerals so we can prepare a nutritious, balanced diet out of plant sources. Yet there are still plenty of people whose metabolism rejects that food. Look at all the people who are allergic to wheat, soybeans or peanuts--three of the most common sources of plant protein!

So if someone tells you that our stomachs are not well-adapted to a combination diet of meat (or milk and eggs) with vegetables, demand that he show you the science behind that claim. There isn't any!

2. Meat releases a toxic substance called putrescine.
A lot of things are toxic if you brew up a concentrated batch of it and drink it. Statements like that are usually telltales of dishonest arguing. Surely you've seen the commercials in which "Concentrated stomach acid burned a hole through this napkin!!!"

Beef takes up to 3 days to digest completely.
We have a relatively long digestive tract. Most things take a while to digest completely. The reason fiber is recommended in our diet is that it makes the food bulkier so it passes through more quickly. But our digestive tract is nothing compared to a cow or any of the ruminants. Their food is passed back and forth between several different stomach chambers where symbiotic bacteria break it down and convert it into starch and protein, which are digestible by mammals. Even the other species of apes--gorillas, chimpanzees, orangutans and gibbons--are grazers and they too have much longer intestines than ours. Since we began eating meat our intestines became shorter, but they're still very long compared to, say, a dog. Dogs completely digest their food and pass out the waste in a few hours. This is because they eat meat, dairy products, and cooked food, which are easy to digest. Give a dog a raw carrot and it will come out as a raw carrot.

3. Can we trust 100% in the transparency of meat producers? antibiotics, hormones, and fattening agents applied to animals could cause us illnesses in the long term.
Well sure. But this is not an indictment of a carnivorous diet. It is an indictment of the meat industry. There is quite a grass-roots movement against these practices, so you younger people will probably live to see them discontinued. What I want to see discontinued is the "factory farming" that crams the poor creatures into a space too small to even turn around, much less exercise. Just because I like to eat meat doesn't mean I want the animals to suffer. California recently passed a voter initiative requiring larger quarters for livestock. The rest of the country always follows our examples eventually.

4. Some essential aminoacids exist only in animal sources.
This is dead wrong. However, no one kind of plant contains all of the essential amino acids. Grains have one subset, and nuts and seeds have the other. You have to eat a balance of grains and nuts or seeds to get a complete diet. Legumes have an even smaller subset. It is not difficult to put together a vegan diet with all the essential amino acids. The problem is with the vitamins and minerals.

Meat contains exactly the right ratio of amino acids because our bodies are meat and that's what we need.

5. In the Louis Kuhne's book The New Science of Healing (1899) he claims vegetarian physicians did an experiment of raising many healthier vegetarian generations.
Health is the result of many factors, not just diet. Presumably these physicians also did other things for the children that improved their health.

Remember: Correlation does not imply causation.

Which reasons would consider a pure rationalist for being a vegetarian?
What's a "pure" rationalist? A carnivore's diet is very resource-intensive and with today's population it would be difficult to produce enough meat for the now poverty-stricken people in Africa and other benighted regions to become carnivores like us Americans. However, grazing land for dairy cattle produces ten times as much food per acre as grazing land for beef cattle. So it wouldn't be hard to provide an ovo-lacto-vegetarian diet for the whole planet. That would be perfectly healthy. And even an avowed carnivore like me could be arm-wrestled into adopting it, whereas I'd deport anybody who tried to make me eat a vegan diet.
 
We'll be fine after we've eaten all the animals. It's a matter of getting used to. You can still have french fries snd beer.
 
1. The physiology of human stomach can't be clasified as omnivore, it secretes hydrochloric acid, while carnivorous animals secretes ammoniacal salts (alkaline).

No, the stomachs of pure carnivores are quite acidic.

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. . . the ability of the carnivore stomach to secrete hydrochloric acid is exceptional. Carnivores are able to keep their gastric pH down around 1-2 even with food present. This is necessary to facilitate protein breakdown and to kill the abundant dangerous bacteria often found in decaying flesh foods.
http://www.ecologos.org/anatomy.htm
============


3. Can we trust 100% in the transparency of meat producers? antibiotics, hormones, and fattening agents applied to animals could cause us illnesses in the long term.

No. Nor can we trust 100% in the transparency of ANY farmer.

4. Some essential aminoacids exist only in animal sources.

Not quite true. There is one vitamin we can't obtain without eating meat products (B12.)

Humans are basically herbivores which have partial adaptations to being omnivores. Had evolution followed its usual course we would have had the tools that most omnivores have to digest meat well. Since we were "interrupted" in that process by civilization, we instead developed adaptations that allowed us to deal with modern (i.e. cooked and prepared) foods.
 
There is one vitamin we can't obtain without eating meat products (B12.)

Yeah, that's because we have to wash the vegetation to get rid of harmful contaminants, washing away the bacteria containing the B12 in the process. If it were not for that then we could easily get B12 without eating meat. Other than that it seems supplements would be the only other way to get B12 while sticking to a vegetarian diet. Unless of course you have your own fresh organic garden in your back yard free from harmful bacteria.
 
What's a "pure" rationalist? A carnivore's diet is very resource-intensive and with today's population it would be difficult to produce enough meat for the now poverty-stricken people in Africa and other benighted regions to become carnivores like us Americans. However, grazing land for dairy cattle produces ten times as much food per acre as grazing land for beef cattle. So it wouldn't be hard to provide an ovo-lacto-vegetarian diet for the whole planet. That would be perfectly healthy. And even an avowed carnivore like me could be arm-wrestled into adopting it, whereas I'd deport anybody who tried to make me eat a vegan diet.

Firstable, focus on the title: DO POSITIVE REASONS EXIST... to be a vegetarian? I never mentioned the socio-economical problem of poverty.
Seems your conclussion is: No. Vegetarianism is a pseudoscientific issue, belongs to the frontier of science. Ergo, people choose it only for two motives: ethical or religious.

Nor ethical, nor religious arguments are valid from a positive point of view. Then, i ask:
This age of knowledge will eradicate pseudoscientific vegetarianism, or you think the progress of science will discover evidence in favor to vegetarianism? Specially considering the future of humanking depends upon an optimal brain nutrition...
 
Balderdash. Our first bipedal ancestors 7 million years ago were herbivores, but before long they learned to make tools out of flint and they began eating meat. First it was meat those blades could scrape off the bones left by predators, but then they learned how to use blades and spears to hunt. The enormous increase in the protein in their diet allowed their brains to quadruple in size, eventually leading to our species about 200,000 years ago. At that point humans were obligate carnivores. We could not live without the concentrated protein in meat. Sure, grains and legumes have plenty of protein, but our digestive systems can't extract it from the tough protective tissue unless it's cooked, and the technology of controlled fire had just barely been invented.

Meat remained our primary sustenance until the Agricultural Revolution, a mere 12 thousand years ago. This is only a few hundred generation for a species like ours with such a long maturity cycle, and a few hundred generations is not long enough for a major mutation like adaptation to a new food source. [Although about half the human population adapted to be able to digest milk about ten thousand years ago, an ability most mammals lose when they're weaned, as well as many people in regions were dairy farming was not introduced until recently.] We are still cavemen and we still need meat. With agriculture we learned to use cooked wheat, corn, rice and other grains, as well as soy and other kinds of beans. But we didn't understand that that is not a complete diet despite the protein content. By the era of the Roman Empire, when the population was so large that most people didn't have access to meat and had to subsist on bread, the average lifespan of an adult who had survived childhood was about 23 years. Everyone except the aristocrats simply died of malnutrion: insufficient vitamins and minerals.
So if you tells me that the enormous increase in the protein in their diet allowed their brains to quadruple in size, eventually leading to our species about 200,000 years ago. At that point humans were obligate carnivores. We could not live without the concentrated protein in meat, i demand that you show me the science behind that claim.

Please quote any link showing the fossil evidence of animal hunting and its expert interpretation, in Europe, Euroasia, Asia, etc
Do something Popperian!
 
So,... lets pray?
Only millonaires have a 100% guarantee o' funk free meat?
Do something witchy!

Pray for me...
images
 
Please quote any link showing the fossil evidence of animal hunting and its expert interpretation, in Europe, Euroasia, Asia, etc.
Spears were invented at least half a million years ago. This means they were invented by one of our ancestral species, probably Homo heidelbergensis. H. neanderthalensis were making spears with fire-hardened wooden points 300K years ago. By the time H. sapiens came on the scene around 200KYA, the spear was already an established technology; we simply improved on it by attaching sharpened flint tips.

Chimpanzees have also invented spears. This suggests that it's not a difficult idea to think of, nor a difficult artifact to build. Therefore it's quite possible that early human ancestral species may have done it as long ago as five million years. But there's no evidence since wood does not last that long. Dead trees used to lie on the ground for millions of years until they fossilized into petrified wood or were compacted into coal or petroleum. But then mushrooms evolved with lignase, the enzyme that can digest lignin.

Orangutans have watched humans fishing with spears and copied the practice.
 
So,... lets pray?
Only millonaires have a 100% guarantee o' funk free meat?

No, no one has 100% guarantee of food safety. You can skew the odds in your favor by being careful - buying from local sources, buying food that has less chance of contamination, preparing it carefully.
 
Do Positive Reasons Exist to be Vegetarian?

To get back to the original question, some objective reasons:

-Reduction in resource usage
-Health
-Food safety
-Cost

All the above can be accomplished with either a vegetarian diet or a mostly vegetarian diet. Vegan diets are harder but if you are careful about taking supplements (vitamins) they can work.
 
There is no positive reason to be a vegetarian, unless you are really poor and can't afford meat.
 
There is no positive reason to be a vegetarian, unless you are really poor and can't afford meat.

They're generally healthier, and they use far fewer resources than people who eat a lot of meat. They have less concerns over food safety as well. Whether or not those things are important to you is, of course, up to each person.
 
That's largely a myth.

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Risk of hospitalization or death from ischemic heart disease among British vegetarians and nonvegetarians: results from the EPIC-Oxford cohort study.

Nuffield Department of Clinical Medicine, University of Oxford, Oxford, UK. francesca.crowe@ceu.ox.ac.uk
Abstract

BACKGROUND:
Few previous prospective studies have examined differences in incident ischemic heart disease (IHD) risk between vegetarians and nonvegetarians.

. . . .

CONCLUSION:
Consuming a vegetarian diet was associated with lower IHD risk, a finding that is probably mediated by differences in non-HDL cholesterol, and systolic blood pressure.
=========================
Mortality in vegetarians and nonvegetarians: detailed findings from a collaborative analysis of 5 prospective studies
From the Imperial Cancer Research Fund, Cancer Epidemiology Unit, Oxford, United Kingdom
The Center for Health Research and the Department of Biostatistics and Epidemiology, Loma Linda University, CA

Abstract

We combined data from 5 prospective studies to compare the death rates from common diseases of vegetarians with those of nonvegetarians with similar lifestyles. . . .The lower mortality from ischemic heart disease among vegetarians was greater at younger ages and was restricted to those who had followed their current diet for >5 y. Further categorization of diets showed that, in comparison with regular meat eaters, mortality from ischemic heart disease was 20% lower in occasional meat eaters, 34% lower in people who ate fish but not meat, 34% lower in lactoovovegetarians, and 26% lower in vegans.
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2010-2011 Research in Nutrition and Food Science
The effects of a vegetarian diet on body mass index.

Katherine marx

Vegetarian diets have become more prevalent in the United States in recent years, with about 3% Americans currently following a vegetarian diet. In the 1990's studies have been published identifying the overall health benefits that one could achieve from following a vegetarian diet. . . . Those who engage in a vegetarian diet had a lower BMI (non vegetarians: 24.48 +/- 3.3 kg/ , vegan: 20.1 +/- .51, lacto vegetarians: 20.4 +/- .08 kg/ , lacto-ovo: 23.67 +/- 3.3 kg/ and semi vegetarians: 23.9 +/- 2.45 kg/ ). These findings are consistent with prior research done on the subject.
=================================
Cross-sectional analysis of BMI and some lifestyle variables in Flemish vegetarians compared with non-vegetarians.
Alewaeters K, Clarys P, Hebbelinck M, Deriemaeker P, Clarys JP.

Department of Experimental Anatomy, Faculty of Physical Education and Physiotherapy, Vrije Universiteit Brussel, Laarbeeklaan 103, B-1090 Brussels, Belgium. Katrien.Alewaeters@vub.ac.be

Abstract
Epidemiological studies on vegetarians indicate that appropriately planned vegetarian diets are associated with certain health benefits, which may lower mortality and morbidity. . . . . When considering the vegetarian group as a whole, the vegetarians had a lower mean BMI compared with the reference population (respectively 22.1 +/- 3.1 kg/m2 compared with 24.6 +/- 4.8 kg/m2 for women (p < 0.001) and respectively 22.6 +/- 3.6 kg/m2 compared with 25.7 +/- 4.0 kg/m2 for men (p < 0.001)).
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I'm losing weight on the paleo diet, which is 50-60% meat.

That's great - but keep in mind you can lose weight eating nothing but frosted Pop-Tarts. (In fact you probably would lose weight.) But on average, eating their normal diets. vegetarians have significantly lower BMI's than non-vegetarians do.
 
People who choose to be vegetarians also likely make good health choices in general. I'm not claiming that living on hot dogs and hamburgers are good for you, but meat has been a part of the human diet for 250,000 years or more, and those people were generally healthy, having dense bone structure and few diseases relating to vitamin deficiencies. It isn't until the start of agriculture that we commonly see those.
 
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