Do not take Jews or Christians as your wali...

[S.A.M.]

I've been thinking about this statement and what it means. Wali is accurately translated as leader or guide.

The religion of Islam was brought to the Quraish as a guidance and to correct some of their practices [female infanticide, legal injustice, slavery and idol worship] which were oppressive to the common man. Islam was to help them to understand that everyone regardless of race or colour or gender had rights and these rights were inviolate because no man could intercede between another man and God.

Many of the problems we see in Muslim societies today, especially regarding the status of women, veiling, following of old laws, dictatorship and the apathy of the ummah and clergy are all practices not mentioned in the Qur'an or derided as wrong. Even circumcision [male and female] does not appear in the Qur'an although it is widely practised by Muslims.

Is this because Muslims have set aside the Qur'an and allowed the practices of Christians and Jews to dominate their religion?

Should there be a return to Islam? Why do Muslims follow these practices?

 

[(Q)]

Is this because Muslims have set aside the Qur'an and allowed the practices of Christians and Jews to dominate their religion?

Why do you say they're practices of Christians and Jews?

Should there be a return to Islam?

Bringing Islam to the people failed, you just admitted that. Scrap it, then. Come up with better ideas to fix those problems that doesn't result in fear of gods and holy wars. Try reality, instead.

 

[GeoffP]

I've been thinking about this statement and what it means. Wali is accurately translated as leader or guide.

While I'm sure your translation is accurate, I have to say that I doubt you've been "thinking" about the issue.

The religion of Islam was brought to the Quraish as a guidance and to correct some of their practices [female infanticide, legal injustice, slavery and idol worship] which were oppressive to the common man.

And to instill different oppressions altogether.

Islam was to help them to understand that everyone regardless of race or colour or gender had rights and these rights were inviolate because no man could intercede between another man and God.

Except, of course, Mohammed, who regularly did so. Also, women's rights were markedly curtailed. And those of gay people. Finally, Mohammed's statements on race does give one pause in which to wonder.

Many of the problems we see in Muslim societies today, especially regarding the status of women, veiling, following of old laws, dictatorship and the apathy of the ummah and clergy are all practices not mentioned in the Qur'an or derided as wrong. Even circumcision [male and female] does not appear in the Qur'an although it is widely practised by Muslims.

But not, of course, by all Christians. The Caliphate itself is really no more than a dictatorship anyway, so dictatorship too would appear to be well within the range of possible rulings on leadership in islam. And how can you possibly describe either the ummah or their clergy as apathetic? It would seem rather they are full of vitriol, and old laws.

Is this because Muslims have set aside the Qur'an and allowed the practices of Christians and Jews to dominate their religion?

Clearly not. In which Christian or Jewish society are women required to be veiled (Q 24:31, Q 33: 32-33, 33: 53, 33: 58-59)? In which are women legally permitted to be beaten via religious law (Q 4:34)? In which are the religious property rights of women a fraction of those of men (Q 34:11)?

Should there be a return to Islam? Why do Muslims follow these practices?

Well, as these practices appear to be derived from islam, I would say that your first question is moot, and that your second has a clear answer.

 

[mike47]

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are very similar in many aspects but there are still major differences between them including the Jesus saga .

 

[S.A.M.]

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are very similar in many aspects but there are still major differences between them including the Jesus saga .

Agreed, but all the practices we see today that are common social problems in Muslim societies have no backing in the Qur'an. So why do Muslims follow them?

(Q 24:31, Q 33: 32-33, 33: 53, 33: 58-59)

Huh?

What does this have to do with the veil? The veil was adopted by Arab societies from the Byzantines. Have you ever seen the historical representation of Arab women?

Please ask Jewish and Christian societies what their religions say about women and compare it to the Quran. The fact that Jews and Christians have become apostate is not the same as Muslims ignoring their religion for practices prescribed in Christian and Jewish societies of the time.

 

[iceaura]

Is this because Muslims have set aside the Qur'an and allowed the practices of Christians and Jews to dominate their religion?

No.

Islam is what it is. All these practices are defended by many - even most - scholars of the Quran. They have not set the Quran aside.

Islam was to help them to understand that everyone regardless of race or colour or gender had rights and these rights were inviolate because no man could intercede between another man and God.

Exactly that - only explicitly, not a sophisticated interpretation by the ivory tower theological set - was the basis of the Protestant Reformation and the creation of George W Bush's Christian religion. Would you argue that W's religion was corrupted by Islamic influence, from the many close associations of his religious community with the Muslims of the Middle East?

 

[S.A.M.]

These Muslims of the Middle East?

Sixth century Arab women:

Or these?

Twelfth centruy Arab manuscript
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Maler_der_Geschichte_von_Bayâd_und_Riyâd_002.jpg

Or these?
16th century Arab woman

Or these?

 

[iceaura]

Agreed, but all the practices we see today that are common social problems in Muslim societies have no backing in the Qur'an.

So you say. Most Muslims say differently.

And the same can be said of things like genital mutilation - practiced on a scale of barbarity the Islamic cultures involved did not learn from Jewish or Christian culture.

The role of holy books in monotheistic religion is a fascinating topic, but I don't think anyone has even suggested that the great majority of modern Muslims have set aside the Quran. IIRC the Egyptian government at one time had hired a crew of Quranic scholars to find "backing" for birth control pills, without which its "family planning" efforts were hopeless - the book is obviously important.

btw: What's with the pictures of nuns? Are they supposed to represent "Christian women" in general or in common?

 

[S.A.M.]

Did they find any information in either direction?

 

[iceaura]

Did they find any information in either direction?

Dunno.

Your point?

 

[S.A.M.]

Well I'd like to know the outcome of that search. What did they decide?

 

[iceaura]

Well I'd like to know the outcome of that search.

So Google around.

Meanwhile, the idea that the Quran has been set aside has been dismissed. Some other explanation for the stubborn refusal of the Muslims on the planet to obey this or that interpretation of the Quran can be sought elsewhere.

And the explanation for the nun picture remains mysterious - were those other pictures of clerical uniforms common to female Muslim clerics?

 

[S.A.M.]

So Google around.

Meanwhile, the idea that the Quran has been set aside has been dismissed. .

Not by me. I have to see what the correlation was between what they said and what they did, this is government we're talking about.

 

[iceaura]

Not by me. I have to see what the correlation was between what they said and what they did, this is government we're talking about.

No, it is Muslim people we are talking about.

People who have not set aside the Quran. Ask them, if you don't believe me, whether the Quran is important to them.

And why the nun picture?

 

[spidergoat]

Where do these practices have backing? The Hadith? I understand they are considered as authoritative as the Quran for many Muslims.

 

[S.A.M.]

I do. All the time. But I don't take government pronouncements seriously. Why do you suppose Muslims circumcise when the Qur'an is against mutilation? And there are sahih Hadiths which say stuff like:

Narrated Abu-Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "No child is born except on Al-fitra (Islam) and then his parents make him Jewish, Christian or Magian (Zoroastrian), as an animal produces a perfect young animal: do you see any part of its body amputated?"
- Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 23, Number 441

When pressed on the issue for FGM, the scholars declared it as un-Islamic for the above reason. But they ignored male circumcision

 

[pjdude1219]

Where do these practices have backing? The Hadith? I understand they are considered as authoritative as the Quran for many Muslims.

and a lot of them are disputed.

 

[pjdude1219]

lets not forget that alot of what anti-Islam people want to label as islamic practices were practices that predate islam but are part of the culture of islamic peoples.

 

[wynn]

Why do Muslims follow these practices?

I once heard the explanation that within a social group, if a behavior is practiced for long enough, it becomes obligatory. Whereby it doesn't matter much how awkward the behavior may originally be (awkward as perceived by the group members at the time when the behavior was first introduced). Or there may be a justified reason to introduce a behavior because of the specific circumstances, but if the behavior is practiced long enough, it will persist even if the circumstances do not warrant it anymore.

 

[mike47]

Agreed, but all the practices we see today that are common social problems in Muslim societies have no backing in the Qur'an. So why do Muslims follow them?



Huh?

What does this have to do with the veil? The veil was adopted by Arab societies from the Byzantines. Have you ever seen the historical representation of Arab women?

Please ask Jewish and Christian societies what their religions say about women and compare it to the Quran. The fact that Jews and Christians have become apostate is not the same as Muslims ignoring their religion for practices prescribed in Christian and Jewish societies of the time.

This is damn crazy .
You are the Muslim here and you are asking the non Muslims to explain to you Islam.
This is as weird as it can be .
Maybe you just enjoy seeing them bashing Islam every day......:shrug:.