Did jesus ever live

fahrenheit 451

fiction
Registered Senior Member
Dr. Albert Schweitzer, the humanitarian, theologian, missionary, organist, and medical doctors.
book "The Quest of the Historical Jesus", the most definitive study that's ever been done on the subject, admitted that there isn't a shred of conclusive proof that Christ ever lived, let alone was the son of God. He concludes that one must therefore accept both on faith.
so apart from your faith, can any body here prove his existence, and does it not also make sense to say that anything, attributed to him in the bible is hearsay.
 
Wow, the most "definitive study"....


Even determined critics don't use the "Jesus never existed" argument. Come on.. grow up. :rolleyes:
 
fahrenheit 451: Dr. Albert Schweitzer, the humanitarian, theologian, missionary, organist, and medical doctors.
book "The Quest of the Historical Jesus", the most definitive study that's ever been done on the subject, admitted that there isn't a shred of conclusive proof that Christ ever lived, let alone was the son of God. He concludes that one must therefore accept both on faith.
so apart from your faith, can any body here prove his existence, and does it not also make sense to say that anything, attributed to him in the bible is hearsay.
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M*W: As an anti-christian, I would love to prove Jesus' existence, even though I don't believe him to be the messiah. Without any proof whatsoever, I believe he did exist as a Jewish Rabbi, who may or may not have been mystical and enlightened. I believe Jesus was a gifted theologian but not a dying demigod savior. My research into the history and philosophy of Mary Magdalene and the other titular Marys of the bible tends to make me think Jesus was a real man. Unfortunately, there is no proof of his existence nor even the existence of a creator god. The only way we will ever know if a god exists is through scientific deduction. We may find out that what we call "god" is just a supernatural misnomer for something that is entirely mundane.
 
§our§tar: Wow, the most "definitive study"....

Even determined critics don't use the "Jesus never existed" argument. Come on.. grow up. :rolleyes:
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M*W: SourStar, once again, I will ask you to prove Jesus' existence on this Earth. I believe everyone here on sciforums, regardless of their beliefs, would really like to know. Since you know something that the rest of us does not, please enlighten us on this simple request.
 
His body hasnt been found, and pretty much the only 'evidence' of his existence is the bible.
 
Lemming3k: His body hasnt been found, and pretty much the only 'evidence' of his existence is the bible.
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M*W: Maybe his body (or parts of it) will be found. That's why I questioned whose skull was in all those magnificent paintings of The Magdalene. Of course, that would mean Jesus had actually died, but it doesn't mean on the cross. However, if that's Jesus skull in those paintings, the artists are trying to tell us that Jesus wasn't resurrected like Christians think. BTW, I believe that none of these famous painters were Christian. Da Vinci, Michelangelo and Botticello, being the three most famous.
 
In the 19th century, German historian Bruno Baur alleged that Jesus was the mental invention of a few second-century Christians who were influenced by Græco-Roman philosophy. More recently, an atheist associated with the Freedom From Religion Foundation argued that “the New Testament Jesus is a myth” (Barker, 1992, p. 378).

More careful scholars, however, have been forced to acknowledge the historicity of the Lord. German historian, Adolf Harnack (1851-1930), declared that Jesus was so imposing that He was “far beyond the power of men to invent” and that those who treat Him as a myth are bereft of “the capacity to distinguish between fiction and the documentary evidence . . .” (as quoted by Harrison, p. 3). Joseph Klausner, the famous Jewish scholar of Hebrew University (who did not accept Christ as the Son of God) conceded that Jesus lived and exerted a powerful influence, both in the first century and subsequent thereto (1989, pp. 17-62). Even rabid skeptics have had to bow bloody heads to the blows of solid historical evidence. Entertainer Steve Allen has written some bitter diatribes against the Bible. Nevertheless, he confessed: “My own belief is that he [Christ] did indeed live in the time of Augustus Caesar . . .” (1990, p. 229).

Several lines of evidence converge to establish the historical reality of the founder of the Christian religion:

1. the New Testament documents;
2. ancient Jewish sources;
3. Roman writings;
4. early antagonists of Christianity;
5. the testimony of the patristic writers;
6. the art of the Roman catacombs; and
7. the impact of Christianity in history.

http://www.christiancourier.com/archives/historicityJesus.htm


You will find more in-depth information in books than on the internet probably.
 
§our§tar: In the 19th century, German historian Bruno Baur alleged that Jesus was the mental invention of a few second-century Christians who were influenced by Græco-Roman philosophy. More recently, an atheist associated with the Freedom From Religion Foundation argued that “the New Testament Jesus is a myth” (Barker, 1992, p. 378).

More careful scholars, however, have been forced to acknowledge the historicity of the Lord. German historian, Adolf Harnack (1851-1930), declared that Jesus was so imposing that He was “far beyond the power of men to invent” and that those who treat Him as a myth are bereft of “the capacity to distinguish between fiction and the documentary evidence . . .” (as quoted by Harrison, p. 3). Joseph Klausner, the famous Jewish scholar of Hebrew University (who did not accept Christ as the Son of God) conceded that Jesus lived and exerted a powerful influence, both in the first century and subsequent thereto (1989, pp. 17-62). Even rabid skeptics have had to bow bloody heads to the blows of solid historical evidence. Entertainer Steve Allen has written some bitter diatribes against the Bible. Nevertheless, he confessed: “My own belief is that he [Christ] did indeed live in the time of Augustus Caesar . . .” (1990, p. 229).

Several lines of evidence converge to establish the historical reality of the founder of the Christian religion:

1. the New Testament documents;
2. ancient Jewish sources;
3. Roman writings;
4. early antagonists of Christianity;
5. the testimony of the patristic writers;
6. the art of the Roman catacombs; and
7. the impact of Christianity in history.

http://www.christiancourier.com/archives/historicityJesus.htm

You will find more in-depth information in books than on the internet probably.
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M*W: I read more books than the Internet. None of the citations you quoted prove anything. Try again. We want real proof.
 
Why don't you read the link then? :rolleyes:


After all, you think that Ulysses Grant existed. The same manner of examination can be used to prove the historicity of Jesus.
 
no southstar, we know we have ulysses grant, as we have pictures, and family members alive today, and a grave to go to etc..
you arguement his with a very famous nobel peace prize winner, and theologian.
he's on you side.
 
What I'm saying is use the same legal-historical proof to determine the historicity of Jesus.

Maybe I should say prove Plato or Aristotle ever existed so that you can better see my point.

Use this same method of examination to prove the historicity of Jesus.
 
§our§tar: What I'm saying is use the same legal-historical proof to determine the historicity of Jesus.

Maybe I should say prove Plato or Aristotle ever existed so that you can better see my point.
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M*W: Plato and Aristotle are known to have existed. They wrote their philosophies down for posterity, and they are credited for writing what they wrote. Jesus never wrote anything that we know of. However, Mary Magdalene allegedly knew Jesus quite personally, and she is believed to have written the Gospel of John, Revelations as well as the Gospel of Mary Magdalene according to resent research. Only by becoming more familiar with MM's writings, and reading the current research, I believe that therein lies the proof of Jesus ever existing. Nothing that Paul (or the Gospel writers) have written can be truly accepted as they were not first-hand.
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SourStar: Use this same method of examination to prove the historicity of Jesus.
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M*W: To find the proof of Jesus' existence, one must venture outside the auspices of the Christian writers. I search not to prove that Jesus didn't exist but to prove that he did. Christian writings are unable to prove his existence, believe all the Christian writers "believed" he existed on faith. I also believe that if we can prove Jesus lived, we can also prove that he wasn't the Messiah.
 
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M*W: From The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity, by Hyam Maccoby:

"The history of New Testament scholarship may be summarized as follows. Though some sporadic efforts had been made (by Jewish scholars in the Middle Ages and by English and German Deists in the eighteenth century) to apply scientific principles to the study of the New Testament, this was begun in a massive way only in the nineteenth century. The religious dogma of scriptural infallibility was abandoned, and it was fully acknowledged that contradictions and inconsistancies in the narratives should not be 'harmonized' away, but should be treated as the outcome of human fallibility. It was recognized that the books of the New Testament were derived from various sources, stitched together as best the editors could manage, and that the editors had been much affected by considerations of bias and propaganda in their work, suppressing or altering what did not suit their religious standpoint in the controversies of the early Church."

"The tendency of all this work was to uncover the fact that Jesus himself and his earliest followers in the 'Jerusalem Church' were very
Jewish figures, who knew nothing of the doctrines which later became characteristic of the Christian Church (the divinity of Jesus, the abolition of the Torah, and the Crucifixion as a means of salvation and atonement taking the place of the Torah). As Julius Wellhausen said, 'Jesus was not a Christian.' The analysis of the editorial work in the Gospels showed that it consisted of the foisting on the original material (still discernible under the editorial revisions) of the later standpoint of the Church. The intensely Jewish standpoint of the early 'Jerusalem Church' (who did not regard themselves as having separated from a catastrophic split. It was F.C. Baur (1792-1860) and his followers of the 'Tubingen school' who stressed the Jewishness of the Jerusalem Church, though they did not fully realize the implications of this as far as Jesus himself was concerned."

"In the twentieth century, however, an ingenious way was found to halt this unpalatable trend. This was to cast doubt on whether the New Testament contains any material of historical value at all. The school of 'form criticism', of which Rudolf Bultmann became the leading exponent, denied that there was any underlying historical layer in the New Testament at all, since the narrative framework was merely a device for linking together items which served various functions in the life of the Church of the late first century and second century. This intensified scepticism served a pious purpose, for,
by removing Jesus from historical enquiry, it was possible to prevent him from assuming too Jewish an outline. Instead of defending the traditional Jesus by attempting to reassert the editorial standpoint of the Gospels (a trap into which nineteenth-century apologists had fallen) it was not possible to defend an orthodox standpoint through the ultra-scepticism of declaring the quest for the historical Jesus to be impossible. All the evidence of Jesus' Jewishness in the Gospels could simply be ascribed to a phase of 're-Judaization' in the history of the Church: this too served a Church function. Though the historical Jesus was beyond a historical approach, he could still be reverently guessed at through faith; and the guess generally made was that he must have had some affinity with the doctrines at which the Church eventually arrived. So, by a tour de force, the ultra-sceptics found themselves thankfully back at square one."

"Bultmann himself, in his earlier work, had taken a slightly different standpoint: namely, that
the historical Jesus may indeed have been a figure of wholly Jewish import (a Messiah figure raising a banner of revolt against Rome). This could not be proved nor disproved, but, in any case, it did not matter, because Christianity was based not on the historical Jesus, who lived and died in Palestine, but on the mythical Jesus, who was resurrected like the gods of the mystery cults and brought salvation through his resurrection. This Hellenistic myth removed Jesus from his historical connections, whatever they may have been, and turned him into a totally mythical figure of far greater spiritual importance, since religion is built on myth, not on fact."
 
Medicine Woman said:
Several lines of evidence converge to establish the historical reality of the founder of the Christian religion:... 3. Roman writings.
I presume you are referring to the writings of Josephus, the Roman historian of Jewish ancestry. Many of us outside the faith have for centuries grudgingly accepted the existence of Jesus as a real human, regardless of the status of his divinity, based upon these writings. Unfortunately, this portion of Josephus's text was proven during the last century to be a forgery. Boy do we all feel cheated.
German historian, Adolf Harnack (1851-1930), declared that Jesus was so imposing that He was “far beyond the power of men to invent” and that those who treat Him as a myth are bereft of “the capacity to distinguish between fiction and the documentary evidence . . .”
Harnack would have gotten quite a withering argument on that subject from Carl Jung. The virgin birth, the resurrection, pick your favorite Jesus story and it turns out to be just the latest instantiation of an "archetype": images that occur in nearly all human cultures in nearly all eras. From Africa to New Guinea to Siberia to the Amazon, people have "remembered" these stories for as long as we have any anthropological evidence to study.

Myth is neither fiction nor documentary evidence. It is a distinct, third kind of -- well, stuff, for lack of a better word -- in our brains. Along with Old Testament stories such as the flood that covers the earth from horizon to horizon and the man being swallowed by a very large fish only to be regurgitated later, and non-Abrahamic traditions such as the human child raised by dogs or wolves and the long-dead woman weeping for her lost child in the night, these are part of our "collective unconscious." These are things that we neither learned nor invented. They were there when we were born.

Acknowledging this does not make them any less special. Scientists can argue that each of these instincts at some point in history served as a survival trait in a milieu we can't quite reconstruct and so the people who didn't have them died out. Fatalists can wave them off as pre-programmed synapses in our brains that may serve no purpose at all but just survived by chance. Spiritualists can believe that the goddess breathes those memories into our brains on our way out the birth canal.

Not only are they still special, but they are even more special than they could be if they belonged to only one religious tradition. They are something inside us that we all have in common, every human being on earth. However they got there, they force us to recognize the fact that deep down inside, we are all truly the same, all truly brothers.

Now that is something really important, especially today.
 
fahrenheit 451 said:
Dr. Albert Schweitzer, the humanitarian, theologian, missionary, organist, and medical doctors.
book "The Quest of the Historical Jesus", the most definitive study that's ever been done on the subject, admitted that there isn't a shred of conclusive proof that Christ ever lived, let alone was the son of God. He concludes that one must therefore accept both on faith.
so apart from your faith, can any body here prove his existence, and does it not also make sense to say that anything, attributed to him in the bible is hearsay.

We have to many Direct Sources for the Existence of Christ -- both from the Church and Latin History. Schweitzer would have to have assumed that all of this History was lies organized by a Huge Conspiracy. Such would be a hypothesis worth examining, IF the Church developed long past the first Century on the strength of these Forged Documents. But it didn't. One of the Primary reasons why Jerusalem was destroyed in the year 70 A.D. was that Christians and Jews were rioting over Christianity throughout the Roman World. While Jerusalem was destroyed, the Christians endured genecidal persecutions.

The Historian Helaire Belloc (much the intellectual superior to Dr. Scheweitzer, I presume) made a very convincing argument about this frame of time and the wide popularity of Jesus. For such an extensive Christian Community to exist in the year 70, just 37 years after Jesus had his Ministry, we could expect that the Community would certainly seek out People who had actually known Jesus. It was a Cosmopolitan World. People did get around. To say that Jesus did not exist, in a World full of Christian Congregations just 37 years after his Death is implausible. It would be like saying today that the D Day Invasion did not happen and that there were no Concentration Camps. That Roosevelt was a Myth. But we know that is true because we all know people who were there and saw these things and people. Jack Kennedy was killed in Dallas 39 years ago. I watch it on TV.

In a Civilized World (and Rome was Civilized) so many people would have begun to suspect something if there had not been a single witness in the Entire Roman World to the Real existence of Jesus.

If we reject the Real Existence of Jesus, we might as well through out all of history. Especially that written by the Protestant English.
 
Fraggle Rocker: I presume you are referring to the writings of Josephus, the Roman historian of Jewish ancestry. Many of us outside the faith have for centuries grudgingly accepted the existence of Jesus as a real human, regardless of the status of his divinity, based upon these writings. Unfortunately, this portion of Josephus's text was proven during the last century to be a forgery. Boy do we all feel cheated.
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M*W: No, actually, I was not referring to Josephus' writings. I do understand that the portion included in "Josephus' writings" were a forgery.
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Fraggle Rocker: Harnack would have gotten quite a withering argument on that subject from Carl Jung. The virgin birth, the resurrection, pick your favorite Jesus story and it turns out to be just the latest instantiation of an "archetype": images that occur in nearly all human cultures in nearly all eras. From Africa to New Guinea to Siberia to the Amazon, people have "remembered" these stories for as long as we have any anthropological evidence to study.
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M*W: I couldn't agree more!
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Fraggle Rocker: Myth is neither fiction nor documentary evidence. It is a distinct, third kind of -- well, stuff, for lack of a better word -- in our brains. Along with Old Testament stories such as the flood that covers the earth from horizon to horizon and the man being swallowed by a very large fish only to be regurgitated later, and non-Abrahamic traditions such as the human child raised by dogs or wolves and the long-dead woman weeping for her lost child in the night, these are part of our "collective unconscious." These are things that we neither learned nor invented. They were there when we were born.
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M*W: I totally agree with you!
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Fraggle Rocker: Acknowledging this does not make them any less special. Scientists can argue that each of these instincts at some point in history served as a survival trait in a milieu we can't quite reconstruct and so the people who didn't have them died out. Fatalists can wave them off as pre-programmed synapses in our brains that may serve no purpose at all but just survived by chance. Spiritualists can believe that the goddess breathes those memories into our brains on our way out the birth canal.
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M*W: There is a "scientific conclusion" that addresses all these issues. I'm a firm believer in Jung.
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Fraggle Rocker: Not only are they still special, but they are even more special than they could be if they belonged to only one religious tradition. They are something inside us that we all have in common, every human being on earth. However they got there, they force us to recognize the fact that deep down inside, we are all truly the same, all truly brothers.
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M*W: Look up the DMT spiritual molecule. Research has been done on the human brain to confirm that it is a molecule in the brain that causes religious thought, religious belief, and religious hallucination. It's happened all over the world, and it is only a manifestation of the human brain.
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Fraggle Rocker: Now that is something really important, especially today*************
M*W: And I do agree with you, Frag, we cannot imagine anything more than what our brains allow us to. The One Spirit of God is no more real than the molecules in our brains that are stimulated by religious thought. In other words, I'm beginning to believe that there really is no god!
 
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