Devil's Child

[sowhatifit'sdark]

"But these impulses may be from below, not from above." I replied, "They do not seem to me to be such; but if I am the Devil's child, I will live then from the Devil."

No law can be sacred to me but that of my nature.

This little nugget came out of Emerson's self-relience and it is similar to something I have felt and thought for a long time. If I cannot trust my nature I am damned, period. If I trust my nature, then I have to have the courage to stand up to even God - perhaps it will turn out not to have been God, who knows.

Shall I drag myself around like a weight around my shoulders, hating myself, and then get a reward in Heaven, where I will, no doubt, have to continue dragging around, concealed somehow the great weight of both my nature and my self-hatred - however couched this latter is in terms like surrender or service, or my higher self vs. my lower.

This is the path to making a hell inside ourselves, even in heaven, even in Nirvana, in whatever after or within life there is.

And what is this part of me that thinks it has the authority to hate my nature?

And why would God give me a nature to hate?

Does he hate his own nature and make us like him?

Let's not get too hooked on God or if God or nirvana or samadhi or whatever exist.

A knife that cuts through a system of thought forms and says

I feel I am being asked to hate myself.

Oh, we can be distracted by questions about 'essential nature' or 'misguided perception' blah, blah - and my blah are not a denial of how hard this choice is, to trust that feeling, that is.

If some being comes up to me and says I should hate myself - however convoluted or subtle is the message - my answer is 'No'.

I am not saying it should be, I am saying that that is what it is.

Things have gotten better since I realized this.

And, amazingly, all those ideas about what an evil, selfish, stomping on others creature I would become have not turned out to be true.

 

[Adstar]

This little nugget came out of Emerson's self-relience and it is similar to something I have felt and thought for a long time. If I cannot trust my nature I am damned, period. If I trust my nature, then I have to have the courage to stand up to even God - perhaps it will turn out not to have been God, who knows.

Shall I drag myself around like a weight around my shoulders, hating myself, and then get a reward in Heaven, where I will, no doubt, have to continue dragging around, concealed somehow the great weight of both my nature and my self-hatred - however couched this latter is in terms like surrender or service, or my higher self vs. my lower.

Coming to know one is not perfect is a nessecary step. If one loves themselves in their current form then they love what is imperfect and therefore they love what is evil in them and in that love they are condemned.

This is the path to making a hell inside ourselves, even in heaven, even in Nirvana, in whatever after or within life there is.

Christians believe we will be transformed at the reasurection and we will be made good again. therefore there will be no self hate in eternity for us.

And what is this part of me that thinks it has the authority to hate my nature?

What?? You are you. You either love your current nature or you don't.

I feel I am being asked to hate myself.

Yep. But in the end you cannot force yourself to hate yourself. If having your limitations revelaed to you does not induce a sence of being unhappy about your current state and does not bring forth yearning to be better then there is nothing left to be done for you.

Oh, we can be distracted by questions about 'essential nature' or 'misguided perception' blah, blah - and my blah are not a denial of how hard this choice is, to trust that feeling, that is.

If some being comes up to me and says - however convoluted or subtle is the message - my answer is 'No'.

Thats your free willed decision and you will be judged by it.

I am not saying it should be, I am saying that that is what it is.

Things have gotten better since I realized this.

Sounds like the Holy Spirit is no longer convicting you. You think it's all good and well the Holy Spirit is off your back? Woe to you.

And, amazingly, all those ideas about what an evil, selfish, stomping on others creature I would become have not turned out to be true.

They are true. Just look at the way you have been talking to Believers in God here in this forum. You do a good job a romper stoming let me tell you. But i guess you see it as being good.

Woe to those who call evil good.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

Coming to know one .....etc.

NO, Adstar. I will not hate myself. Please go away.

 

[SnakeLord]

If one loves themselves in their current form then they love what is imperfect and therefore they love what is evil in them and in that love they are condemned

That's just shocking. Let me say as sincerely as possible that you have my deepest pity. Life must be intolerable for you. I'll pray for it to end quickly.

 

[greenberg]

I feel I am being asked to hate myself.

As I always say:

If one believes about oneself that one is evil, that one has an evil nature, that one is bad,
then one will not be interested in doing anything about it, one will not care about oneself nor about others (because caring simply is not what evil people do!),
one will become passive, lazy, irresponsible, irresponsive, atrophied in body and mind.

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

As I always say:

If one believes about oneself that one is evil, that one has an evil nature, that one is bad,
then one will not be interested in doing anything about it, one will not care about oneself nor about others (because caring simply is not what evil people do!),
one will become passive, lazy, irresponsible, irresponsive, atrophied in body and mind.

I think the reactions vary. I think some people can sacrifice themselves trying to wean themselves of that evil nature. Some try to weed out whatever it is that is considered evil in themselves. Anything from sexual desire to having boundaries to doing what they really want to do with their time. And so on. But I think many 'productive' people truly believe they are not good. It can act as a kind of caffeine. My own experience is exactly like what you said. But it is also that it drove me to act also,hoping to find around the next corner that.....

And many religions, it seems to me, offer a set of guidelines for how to hate yourself and how to control your evil nature.

These teachings are not restricted, at all, to religions.

 

[greenberg]

I think the reactions vary.

A lot depends on the overall wealth and health of the person. As long as wealth and health are relatively good, they can neutralize a lot of the harmful things a person does to themselves.
This is one of the reasons why the effects of negative beliefs aren't always visible.

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

A lot depends on the overall wealth and health of the person. As long as wealth and health are relatively good, they can neutralize a lot of the harmful things a person does to themselves.
This is one of the reasons why the effects of negative beliefs aren't always visible.

Health is more complicated than that. There are poor, financially, women, for example, who have been trained - let's say by one of the popular sects and their parents - that they are (Eve) sinners. They meet men who are happy to use this and end up married to a man who treats them poorly, emotionally that is. The woman works hard, takes care of the kids, suppresses any critical reaction to her husband and looks for all the world like a harried, but normal person, with a tough, but in the bounds or normal, relatively poor life. Her belief that she is bad functions to make her work harder to please both God and husband and her children
and she dies before her time at 50. Or even lives a normal, first world lifespan.

 

[greenberg]

Then these women must have a very robust psyche to begin with.

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

It certainly seems that way to me. But I suppose that is a good thing. I used to have that pattern myself. Only I aimed it at everyone.

 

[greenberg]

You mean the attitude "I must let everyone fuck me in the head because I deserve it"?

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

You mean the attitude "I must let everyone fuck me in the head because I deserve it"?

That one I would call a subset.

I could frame it a number of ways.

I must conform to the other because they will never compromise or care about my experience.

That's one way.

 

[greenberg]

I must conform to the other because they will never compromise or care about my experience

... and my wellbeing is dependent on what the other says or does."

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

Yes, it all has an air of life-threatening weight.

(apolagies for PM confusion about Sl. How silly of me. I can't seem to PM you to be more clear. Perhaps I am on ignore?)

 

[wesmorris]

If I cannot trust my nature I am damned, period. If I trust my nature, then I have to have the courage to stand up to even God - perhaps it will turn out not to have been God, who knows.

Totally, right on, well said. Yeah. That's it. You are what you are, though of course this can lead to complacency.

Shall I drag myself around like a weight around my shoulders, hating myself, and then get a reward in Heaven, where I will, no doubt, have to continue dragging around, concealed somehow the great weight of both my nature and my self-hatred - however couched this latter is in terms like surrender or service, or my higher self vs. my lower.

You could, but IMO - what a waste of time. You are your higher self and your lower self both.

This is the path to making a hell inside ourselves, even in heaven, even in Nirvana, in whatever after or within life there is.

Si.

And what is this part of me that thinks it has the authority to hate my nature?

I call it "unbound ego", wherein one takes on the role of god so to speak.

And why would God give me a nature to hate?

Why indeed. I sometimes think of this as an innate 'spiritual test' if you will, and that you pass if you can get to the part where you say "no" when asked to hate yourself.

Does he hate his own nature and make us like him?

I think it's rather crass to even hypothesize on this matter.

Let's not get too hooked on God or if God or nirvana or samadhi or whatever exist.

But I think it's the function of many to do just that.

A knife that cuts through a system of thought forms and says

I feel I am being asked to hate myself.

Funk dat. That is mental illness IMO, or susceptability to social control.

Oh, we can be distracted by questions about 'essential nature' or 'misguided perception' blah, blah - and my blah are not a denial of how hard this choice is, to trust that feeling, that is.

To trust that you are being asked, or that you should hate yourself?

If some being comes up to me and says I should hate myself - however convoluted or subtle is the message - my answer is 'No'.

Good man. I don't think it's as easy for everyone of course. Honestly I think some people's brain chemistry simply weights towards self-hatred, and many are conditioned.

I am not saying it should be, I am saying that that is what it is.

Things have gotten better since I realized this

.

Excellent.

And, amazingly, all those ideas about what an evil, selfish, stomping on others creature I would become have not turned out to be true.

Oh sure, so YOU say. See you in hell.

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

Totally, right on, well said. Yeah. That's it. You are what you are, though of course this can lead to complacency.

That is one of the fears. If I am not on myself with a whip I will just lie around - physically, morally, etc.

But I think it's the function of many to do just that.

I wasn't suggesting never, I meant in this context.

Funk dat. That is mental illness IMO, or susceptability to social control.

The norm.

To trust that you are being asked, or that you should hate yourself?

to trust the feeling that one is being asked to hate oneself. Most askers do not word it this way, though you can get hellfire sermons that come pretty close. Most askers may smile and say nice things that have as implicit that you should hate yourelf. To trust the feeling that the message is to hate yourself, despire the mask the asker wears, can be tricky.

Good man. I don't think it's as easy for everyone of course. Honestly I think some people's brain chemistry simply weights towards self-hatred, and many are conditioned.

Oh sure, so YOU say. See you in hell.

I wasn't making claims about the afterlife. I've just noticed I haven't become a raving selfish streamroller. And anyone who has thought so has learned to shut up by now.
(ha, ha)

 

[fusion4577]

I rember hearing somthing along this line
"To belive or not to belive in jesus. If do, and i am wrong, so what/ if i don't, and i'm wrong then, ouch/ so it's best to play safe"
Then what if buddah was right?

 

[sowhatifit'sdark]

I rember hearing somthing along this line
"To belive or not to belive in jesus. If do, and i am wrong, so what/ if i don't, and i'm wrong then, ouch/ so it's best to play safe"
Then what if buddah was right?

Or worse, what if Jesus was the anti-christ. There is no way to hedge this bet.

 

[greenberg]

That is one of the fears. If I am not on myself with a whip I will just lie around - physically, morally, etc.
I wasn't suggesting never, I meant in this context.
The norm.

And if you believe this long enough, it becomes true - and you really end up needing to whip yourself into action, because otherwise you get nothing done.

to trust the feeling that one is being asked to hate oneself. Most askers do not word it this way, though you can get hellfire sermons that come pretty close. Most askers may smile and say nice things that have as implicit that you should hate yourelf. To trust the feeling that the message is to hate yourself, despire the mask the asker wears, can be tricky.

Absolutely, on all counts.

This is why I think that anyone serious about their own spiritual practice has to seriously contemplate the possibilities that the Universe is ruled by an evil god, or chaotic, or that burning in hell for all eternity might be possible, that one might be evil, delusional or in denial, that everyone else is enlightened but oneself.
Most people seem to ignore such things as call them "absurd" - but the fact is that they are there, lurking just underneath the surface. And unless one is prepared for those "absurd" scenarios, one will be easy prey to anyone playing on that card that those scenarios are unresolved - which is what fire&brimstoners do.

 

[Adstar]

That's just shocking. Let me say as sincerely as possible that you have my deepest pity. Life must be intolerable for you. I'll pray for it to end quickly.

My unhappiness with my current state of being is nowhere near to the Joy of knowing my eternal state of being. Nowhere near the joy of knowing the forgiveness and love of God.

See because God loves and forgives me I can love and forgive myself. I now understand i am just a human being with all the limitations that means. But you see i have forgiven myself. I still don't like myself and get frustrated with myself but i also love myself like a understanding and loving father who realizes that i am never going to be what i want to be while i am in this body.

You guys are under the impression i spend my days in mourning or in distress or self-loathing. Noooo i am at peace, i do not suffer depression. People who suffer depression are the people who believe that they should and the world should be better and that if they and the world try harder then they would live within an inner and outer utopia. People with idealistic views on how the world should be or how they and others should be, they are the ones who suffer the self loathing and deep depression when the world collectively and they personally fail to live up to their own expectation.

I know and have accepted that the world as it is will never be a utopia and i know that others will be SOB's when the opportunity to gain from being an SOB arises. I accept my own failures as normal. Seeing and accepting the world as it truly is can be done when you know that it is only temporary and that eternity will be what my idealistic part yearns for. People who invest their hopes and emotional energy in striving for personal perfection and worldly utopias always fail and always fall into resentments and depression and unforgiving self-hate.

It is a pity that many of you do not see this.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days