Devil's Advocate

U

Unknown_user

Registered Senior Member
The Mexican phenomina is the most believable incident to have happened in years.

However, one thing I question is this:

In the video someone says "what is, what is this" in English. It is either the ground control or the pilot. I would conclude it was the pilot and therefore makes me wonder about the validity of this phenomina as the objects were supposedly invisable.

Were they speaking in Spanish and I mistook it as English?

It is at 32 seconds in: http://gusd0076.free.fr/mexico-03-05-04.mpg

Or were they ground control reporting up to the pilots?
 
Let me see if I have your devils advocate story correct, your insinuating Mexican’s cannot speak English?
:D
 
Unknown User, the objects were invisible to the naked EYE. The crew detected and
tracked the objects by radar and FLIR. They knew they were there, but could not
see them with their eyes. What about English being spoken, if it was? The FLIR
tape was authenticated by the Mexican Air Force. We have yet to see the radar
recordings, and according to the official reports, the radar tracks were recorded also.
 
Ok, either the pilots are looking through infrared glasses themselves or the story of these being invisible to the naked eye is false. Also, I remember the initial story being that they were visible at 1st and then were invisable. I am confused.

The pilots could see them because they count them coming through the clouds going, uno, dose, trese, quatro, sinco, etc. etc.
 
2inquisitive said:
Unknown User, the objects were invisible to the naked EYE.
Click to expand...

I think an important point of note here is that the "objects" were apparently invisible to the naked eye. There are a lot of variables which could have affected this from cammoflauge to lighting.

2inquisitive said:
The crew detected and
tracked the objects by radar and FLIR.
Click to expand...

As far as I could tell, the crew only viewed the "objects" by FLIR and not by radar. The latter was done by the ground.
 
So the crew inside the plane could see them on FLIR imaging?

That can't be correct, because the statements from the crew was that they felt scared when they were told they were surrounded. So, they never saw them. But, like I said initially. At 31 seconds into my link, a crew member says, "what is, what is this." Its as if he sees it for the 1st time with the naked eye.
 
Do you guys ever read any reports or just look at pretty pictures? FLIR is not 'glasses',
it is a $400,000 camera mounted to the outside of the plane with a screen on the inside of the plane to display the infrared images picked up as a 'picture.' And yes, the
plane carries radar and it picked up three objects, but not all eleven. This link is the
best to get an understanding of how everything works, and it even contains several
pictures of the objects in different settings and of the FLIR itself, which I posted a
link to the manufactor's website long ago.
http://www.earthfiles.com/news/news.cfm?ID=711
 
"outside of the plane with a screen on the inside of the plane" 2inquisitive

Don't act like I'm a skeptic.

That is what I have been trying to ask. Was there a screen on the inside of the plane for the FLIR? Were they looking at that video we saw in real time, and therefore their responses would corroborate the event?

The impression I got from reading through the statements was that the crew didn't see shit.
 
The crew saw the images on the radar screen and on the FLIR screen. The images were in real time AND were recorded, just like using a conventional video camera
and recording what you see in the electronic viewfinder. That's how they detected
the objects and discussed them among themselves. They did not see the objects
with their eyes, possibly because they were too small and too far away. The FLIR
registered an intensive energy emunating from the objects, but is not, on its own,
able to determine thier size. The radar can register distance, direction and speed
but may have been unable to pick up some of the objects because they were too
small. The radar images were recorded too, but I haven't seen a site that displays
them yet. If one wanted to make a speculation involving ETI, them it would be
logical to assume the objects were some type of small probe, too small to be seen
visually at the distances involved, but radiating a lot of energy. Even a speculation
of human technology could also point to a small spy probe or craft of some type.
Notice I did say speculation, as of yet the complete facts are not known, but it
seems less and less likely to be a weather-related phenomena.
 
"The crew saw the images on the radar screen and on the FLIR screen. The images were in real time AND were recorded, just like using a conventional video camera"

Thanks for your detailed reply. In my opinion with the information supplied, there is nothing we know of that can explain this event.
 
Wouldn't an unidentified object that has been seen be called an identified flying object seeing that someone saw it and recognized it as something?
 
Unknown_user said:
The Mexican phenomina is the most believable incident to have happened in years.

Says who?
The most beleivable incident I ever saw was actually seeing 25-30 crafts with my own eyes! Clear as day.
It doesn't matter who has seen it.
The bottom line is, unless and until you see or experience something for yourself, you aint going to believe shit.
No matter how many pictures, news stories, freinds, relatives or whatever.
Bottom line.
Doesn't matter if the president has seen something, your momma, or your best freind.
The most you will do is raise an eyelid in a cautious way.
Think about it.
The very fact that some of you will refute and deny something through a medium which has no capability of convincing you otherwise is strange to say the least.
Any discussion becomes more of an emotional defense than an intellectual one.
Thats my take on it anyways for those of you who do not already have a reason to beleive otherwise.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
"The bottom line is, unless and until you see or experience something for yourself, you aint going to believe shit."

Kind of true.... However, I don't need to see it with my own eyes to believe. For instance, I could be in the Mexican craft and only be able to view the crafts through the FLIR monitor. I would still believe. I have never seen the Space Shuttle with my own eyes, but I do believe it exists.

In your case, seeing 25-30 crafts flying overhead would definately solidify a belief. That would be cool to see with the naked eye.
 
I hope you like this information.

UFO investigators must examine all the available evidence
to reduce the risk of culminating a case without some extra
valuable information.

What are those lights in the Mexican Air Force FLIR video?
Mexican Air Force Video lights are real UFOs or simply
Oil Well flames? Did you know about the Oil Well Field
called CANTARELL in the Gulf of Mexico exactly in front
of Ciudad del Carmen and not to far from the sea shore?

-Cantarell Oil Field-
Cantarell Field or Cantarell Complex is the largest oil
field in Mexico, located 80 kilometers offshore in the
Bay of Campeche. This field comprises four major fields
Akal, Nohoch, Chac, Kutz and the recently discovered
Sihil. The first field was discovered in 1976, then known
as Cantarell complex in 1996.

See: http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/campech.gif

The lights ( UFO's) shown in the video of march 05, 2004
provided by the Mexican Air Force could be the heat
source produced by the flames of the oil wells located
in the Oil field Cantarell between 50 km to 90 km in the
Gulf of Mexico, very close to the shores of Ciudad del
Carmen city in the Campeche's State and within the
range of the C26A FLIR camera at the moment of the
strange sighting.

I remember one crew member, I don't recall who he
was but in some part of the in-flight communications
tells the others that the "object" is two miles and then
one mile ahead (one o'clock) the airplane and then he
said it was over the city ofr Ciudad del Carmen.
By that the airplane was heading to the Northwest
where at the bottom this Oil Wells are located.

There are in the Cantarell Oil Field 214 oil wells in
9 platforms from 184 that PEMEX ( Mexican Oil
Company) has in the Gulf of Mexico.

I used to fly as a private pilot in the area of Ciudad
del Carmen in the late 70's. I remember very well
seeing those oil wells at night from the shore and
their close proximity to Ciudad del Carmen city.
I Also can remember the IXTOC1 oil well that
burned out of control for ten months.

Is there a possibility that the continuos flame in the
offshore Oil Wells "platform flames" (passive fire)
could have been mistaken as the lights (UFO's)
that we have seen in the now famous Mexican
Air Force FLIR video?

Is it possible that the FLIR camera was not handled
in the appropriate brightness control? I must remark
that the FLIR equipment was used in daylight and
maybe because of that the heat sensors detected
the oil well's flames causing the infrared focal plane
array (IRFPA) to work improperly? Or maybe was
out of range and by that out of focus and the images
are shown blurred or as in an excess of zooming?

Regarding the presence of this numerous oil wells
that have their burners always with flames (passive
fire) to burn the excess of gas in the platforms saw
the UFO video many times and noticed the following
coincidences that will provide new data to this case
and I hope you'll find this data useful. I'll appreciate
whatever you have to say on this information I've
recollected for the last 13 days. This information
was gathered with honesty and I hope it'll help
solve this outrageous case

If any of you have not seen the Mexican Air Force
UFO Video you can download it at:
http://www.ufoevidence.org/specialfeatures/mexicanairforce/mexicanAFvideos.htm

Please take your time to watch the video carefully
and I hope you also will notice what I discovered
some days ago about the Cantarell oil field in the
Campeche Bay located in the Gulf of Mexico,
I insist, precisely in front of Ciudad del Carmen
City from which the oil wells are not to far away
(50 to 90 Km from the shore.)

The objects (lights) are in a fixed position with a
dark background ( the sea) while the camera on
board is following the lights that are showing in
the screen as a very brilliant source of light.
There is a great distortion as there is no sign
of an object but only light. Take your time and
repeat the video. Try to focus as if the lights are
STEADY and the camera movements shows
when turning in his axis that the clouds move
sometimes rapidly and then suddenly they stop
moving while the lights (UFO's) never changed
their formation neither their speed.

If you take your time you will see the fact that the
lights are always steady if we repeat the scene
and see at the very bottom of the FLIR screen
that the AZIMUTH (Az) NEVER CHANGES
more than TWO or FOUR degrees.

The FLIR was working at that moment in the
DAY screening mode as you can see in the
upper white strip of the video's screen.

Ciudad del Carmen's map (PDF format) with
Cantarell Oil Field wells location provided by
PEMEX ( the Mexican Oil industry): Download:
http://www.pemex.com/files/dcf/jose_carrera.pdf

Maybe you'll like to see a map screen capture:
http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/campech.gif

You'll need Adobe Acrobat reader to view PDF
format archives
Download here: http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/main.html

See the C26A Merlin Mexican Air Force relative
position in a Campeche's map (not in scale):
http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/campech0.gif

Note: Azimuth is the direction, in degrees in
which to fly. It is shown in the lower white
section of the screen the coordinates an the
negative number ( -137.4ºAz) .That means
the objective of the camera is pointed to the
opposite direction, that is 317.4º or
NORTHWEST so the airplane is SOUTHEAST
from Ciudad del Carmen as the coordinates
are shown in the FLIR's screen: LAT. 18º26.56'
LONG. 90º46.22'

See: http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/campech0.gif

About the movement of the clouds and lights
in the video:

While the airplane is moving the clouds also
move but sometimes they don't, that's when
the FLIR's operator focuses on the lights and
then the clouds stop their movement in the
screen and sometimes they move at the
same speed as the lights (parallel to the
airplanes movement). That is because the
lights are coming from steady Oil Platform
flames (passive fire) located in the Gulf of
Mexico between 50 and 90 Km from Ciudad
del Carmen City where the objects, at least
one light as the FLIR or RADAR operator
tells is exactly over Ciudad del Carmen city
(one o'clock).

The Star Safire II's FLIR can detect HOT
SPOTS at a great distance (50 NM) where
the human eye can't see any spot or
temperature source. (Maybe that's why the
C26A crew couldn't see nothing with the
naked eye).

Watch the clouds very carefully and see how
they move sometimes at the same speed a
s the lights while some of them are left
behind the camera lenses, but when the
FLIR's operator focuses the camera (sensor)
on the lights as the airplane moves the clouds
stop moving. And that corresponds to a
moving object effect (C 26A airplane) and
the moving camera (FLIR) rotating (panning)
in his axis at the same time.

So if you focus your attention in the lights
movement regarding the space between the
clouds and the lights, in first plane (closer to
the camera lens as the clouds move in
second plane seem to be steady above
the objects).

In the in-flight conversation (not an official
phraseology as the military) the crew
members told that they were chased by
the objects but as I can remember the lights
never changed in speed, separation or any
sharp turns were made nor any change in
their speed and track.

I think there is an optical effect and by that
a distortion of the reality that make the lights
to appear as if they were flying while they are
steady flames coming from the source of
heat that are generated by the Oil Well flames.
Remember, there are 214 wells in 9 platforms
from 184 that PEMEX has installed in the
Gulf of Mexico. Most of them are in front
of Ciudad del Carmen city were this now
famous sighting was recorded.

OIL WELLS NAMES AND LOCATION
REFERENCE DATA:
http://www.alcione.org/FRAUDES/FAM/REFERENCE_DATA.html

This investigation will continue.

Best regards to all,

Capt. Alejandro Franz
director@alcione.org
www.alcione.org
(non-profit)

AEROMEXICO'S AIRPLANE COLLIDES
WITH A UFO IN 1994! TRUE OR FALSE?
FALSE!......THIS CASE IS A HOAX.
http://www.alcione.org/OVNI94_engx.html
 
Capt. Franz, you failed to mention that your questions have already been answered
and discounted by Dr. Bruce Maccabee, an optical physicist. You also failed to mention
that the plane was flying to the West, toward the direction of the first radar returns
in an effort to intercept what could possibly have been a drug smuggling plane, as no
planes were supposed to be in the area 37 miles away. The radar indicated the returns
were not getting closer even as the C26A flew towards them. The C26A began to run
low on fuel, so they broke off pursuit and turned the C26A back to almost due East,
in the opposite direction. That was when the objects changed direction also and began to pursue, at speeds over 300 knots per hour at times. The radar revealed
some moved ahead of the plane (front and at 1 o'clock) and the FLIR recorded the images on the left side. Angles are discussed by Dr. Maccabee in his response:

"Outrageous?

Maybe..... maybe not.

I should think that the FLIR operator would be aware of the oil
fires having flown around the area many times before (I assume
this wasn't his first experience operating the flir in that
area.)

If one looks at the URL:

http://www.alcione.org/fraudes/fam/campeche\0.gif

one sees superimposed upon a map a frame of the video showing
the lights I have caller "the twins" and the azimuth -133.7.
Also shown, but not mentioned by Fran, is the elevation, EL =
3, which implies a sighting line tilted upward.

Looking at the whole video one sees that the "twins" and
other lights are above at least the lower cloud level.

However, the most convincing visual evidence that the objects
are not at ground level appears in the video around 17:06:43-45
at which time the lights/object emerge from a cloud and, behind
them is a dark area (cloud shaded from the sun). After they, one
after another, pass the dark cloud they also pass in front of a
bright cloud (lit by the sun).

This proves that they were at cloud level and not on the ground."
http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/may/m27-021.shtml
 
I'm concerned about how often people talk about "believing" something.
Some people "believe" in God without ever seeing Him/Her.
It is a similar leap of faith to "believe" when you do see or detect "something".

To me, it is far more satisfying to "know" something.
What we "know" from this incident is that "something" was detected by FLIR. We don't "know" what it was.
We can choose to "believe" it was unknown human technology or unknown extraterrestrial technology. Or we can choose to "wonder" what it was.

As long as "belief" is part of the paradigm, it remains "pseudo"science.
 
It looks to me that we now "know" these UFOs were the oil well fires. CPT Franz presented a very compelling case... I think it more far likely (than ETI) that the crew, who may or may not have flown the area before, could have seen an effect they've not previously seen.

I also think it very likely that the FLIR was being misoperated or having a problem, particularly since there is a apparent duplication of images with the "hotspots" of the wells. A reflection within the optics perhaps.

Case closed. Sorry, Stryder... looks like your balloon theory is out :cool:
 
SkinWalker said:
It looks to me that we now "know" these UFOs were the oil well fires. CPT Franz presented a very compelling case...
Click to expand...

OH MY....splittin a side laughing so hard...you must be kidding?

I bet the Mexican Secretary of Defense and crew are having a hay day laughing at this theory.

R-I-G-H-T!!

The off shore oil wells miraculously levitated to cloud level, encircled a drug busting plane then flew off, maybe back to off shore....
butt.gif
 
More likely, the Mexican crew were a bit untrained or incompetent/inexperienced and the horizon was confused with altitude... much like you're doing now.
 
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