So as I said before your standpoint on the subject seems to be a mute one of no valid input for either direction. You are not for, and you are not against. Therefore any explination you give in this area is doubly mute in the first place. You reject the hypothesis when you can't claim it true "type 1 error". Still you don't reject the null hypothesis "from your standpoint" despite you not being able to prove it false."type 2 error" I see what the problem is. You believe everyone to be insane and therefore not liable for thier moral actions giving your mind the ability to conclude that there is in fact no free will. That is the only concievable explination I can find in your mind.
Determinism and free will .
- Thread starter Emil
- Start date
The word is "moot".
And wrong again.
My input is pointing out that what you are doing is speculating wildly and stating such speculation as if it were valid.
Wrong yet again.
Just not your day is it?
Are you going to answer my questions?
Are you going to retract the accusation of racism?
Your really serious about this racism thing. Have you not read some of my other posts? No notice that I employ but a slight bit of sarcasm when I speak. I will still fully retract the statement. The fact that my free will has lead me to not speak quite as such as I have just noticed against you, can only suggest that you are a more estute than I. Alright I will concede defeat on all levels of this current arguement since you have had more previous studies on its exactness. If you can guess the major of the current master I am. And I made it for somebody a while ago. In riddle form.http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=104824
But still I contest the only reason a person does not have free will is if they are insane or If something physically happens to them. What can go wrong "sometimes does" go wrong. I mean if any airplane drops a bomb on your house, yeah your pretty much screwed out of free will. If someones parents abused their children causing them tramautic stress in their life they can't cope with, yeah you might be screwed out of free will. If some jerkoff kills your daughter and you don't get to pull the switch for the electric chair, your screwed out of free will.
But still I contest the only reason a person does not have free will is if they are insane or If something physically happens to them. What can go wrong "sometimes does" go wrong. I mean if any airplane drops a bomb on your house, yeah your pretty much screwed out of free will. If someones parents abused their children causing them tramautic stress in their life they can't cope with, yeah you might be screwed out of free will. If some jerkoff kills your daughter and you don't get to pull the switch for the electric chair, your screwed out of free will.
I'm funny in that I do get serious about false accusations.
It's obvious what your major is: inane drivel. So far you've shown yourself to be deficient in science, philosophy, spelling, grammar and thinking.
How about the fact that your personality is shaped by your upbringing, genetics and environment?
You're still assuming that each decision you make is freely made, yet once you start to examine them not a single one is free of external (or past) influence. Can state categorically that you choose freely and that you could have chosen otherwise? Can you state categorically that the choices you did not make were actually possible for you to make or is that simply an illusion that you like to maintain?
You want to hear my past experiences? I really don't think you do.
I met a girl not long ago who intelligently enough pulled me into her plot. She would say she was going to kill herself, and she had the cut marks to prove it. At first there was not a sight but I can not deny her plight was escape not me. But what did I learn and what did I see after she suffered strokes and coma. That was not in sight at all. But she was no monster. You see her sister is OCD and I have witnessed as well as heard of problems of abuse. Running was the best option she chose, and she drug me down with it. Still after I see her, bear whitness when she opens her eyes and comes back to life. But after her parents keep me out of sight. No mention of my name on her guestbook. Victory is decided by the writters of history in this case. The night the monster hid behind his pipe, while I lay in her bed.
She says, "He will kill you" like she means it. But we got him that night. The flint from the lighter had dried from a twist in the water, as his party went up in flames. What do I recieve for my deeds? Occasional text and to which her sister will attest. She is crazy, but I doubt that is her fault.
Sure I could respond back to her dellusional text messages. Which often includes this completely unanwerable question, "why weren't you there for me at the hospital?" I can never get that question right try as I might. I see now she is only meant to torment and this is if and only If i don't answer her. "having a nearly photographic memory doesn't help. Can I add up pieces to a bigger puzzle here, tell me it is not my fault. It's an Issue I struggle with daily.
So what of my free will in this day? should I call her and say, "Your parents have filled your head with dirty lies!", but still she filled so my head with so many lies that may have been true. The experience has only given me a way with words. Its like I can smell twisted words. Many times it is sarcastic because I choose it to be that way. Who knows maybe I will make an intelligent joke out of it in another time.
But my past experiences don't matter to any subject whatsoever in the history of humanity. My input is always negative and off base. I have read no philosophical litterature whatsoever. I have read no litterature on physics either. Nor have I read any astrology or cosmology books. Surely If I only had the "free will" to read any litterature I would have done so. How old do you think I am?
I met a girl not long ago who intelligently enough pulled me into her plot. She would say she was going to kill herself, and she had the cut marks to prove it. At first there was not a sight but I can not deny her plight was escape not me. But what did I learn and what did I see after she suffered strokes and coma. That was not in sight at all. But she was no monster. You see her sister is OCD and I have witnessed as well as heard of problems of abuse. Running was the best option she chose, and she drug me down with it. Still after I see her, bear whitness when she opens her eyes and comes back to life. But after her parents keep me out of sight. No mention of my name on her guestbook. Victory is decided by the writters of history in this case. The night the monster hid behind his pipe, while I lay in her bed.
She says, "He will kill you" like she means it. But we got him that night. The flint from the lighter had dried from a twist in the water, as his party went up in flames. What do I recieve for my deeds? Occasional text and to which her sister will attest. She is crazy, but I doubt that is her fault.
Sure I could respond back to her dellusional text messages. Which often includes this completely unanwerable question, "why weren't you there for me at the hospital?" I can never get that question right try as I might. I see now she is only meant to torment and this is if and only If i don't answer her. "having a nearly photographic memory doesn't help. Can I add up pieces to a bigger puzzle here, tell me it is not my fault. It's an Issue I struggle with daily.
So what of my free will in this day? should I call her and say, "Your parents have filled your head with dirty lies!", but still she filled so my head with so many lies that may have been true. The experience has only given me a way with words. Its like I can smell twisted words. Many times it is sarcastic because I choose it to be that way. Who knows maybe I will make an intelligent joke out of it in another time.
But my past experiences don't matter to any subject whatsoever in the history of humanity. My input is always negative and off base. I have read no philosophical litterature whatsoever. I have read no litterature on physics either. Nor have I read any astrology or cosmology books. Surely If I only had the "free will" to read any litterature I would have done so. How old do you think I am?
No I don't. It appears you missed the point of the question.
That's becoming ever more apparent.
Supposition.
Irrelevant.
Just becase your parents control your free will till your 18, doesn't mean they haven't filled your head with some false beliefs. Of course the determinism in your behavior is bound by causailiy. Still the further away in time you get from the causality of your behavioral actions and cognitions that place constraints on your mind the further bounds you can come to a relization of free will. It is still an individual perspective which means that: (conditional statement) if you yourself deny free, Then will it does not exist to you. You can not deny that it exists to my perspective, you can only argue against the amount of control I have over the subject.
Really? When did I say each decision, I clearly stated many that have included times when a person would not have free will. That's like saying your past influences have not made you a target for this discussion. My past influences have prepared me for this type of thread. I have had this experience of being bound to the free will of another. A puppet if you will. She plays the tune and I dance, as I love the way she dances. But while I was in this trance you can bet I was paying attention. I was always more of an observer to others actions. I have not forgotten one single thought or action of any person since my tragedy was overcome that did not allow me to determine how much free will another allows themselves to have. It is present in their thoughts, actions, and words that that they express at different times to different people. I am still learning as to what action causes what reaction to anothers thoughts as well as their actions, but the emotional ones are simple enough. Their is always trust you must reach with another to point their free will in another direction, else your psychological plan to determine anothers path fails and falls appart.
Are you asking me if I could have instead of going to the beach on vacation with a friend durring the time she was in the hospital, that I have stayed with her. She woke up, she was alive, how was I supposed to know what mind she would have? I only got to see her because of her real father when this started. Worse my parents sent me away to make sure her parents did not press charges. Sure I could have done that, stayed , I remember the choice very vividly. But it was her not me that maintained the illusion after the facts. She had found her escape, her mom and stepdad got divorced, but her torment was never ending. She would pull me in with words very much like yourse, simple, elegant, exact. Always knowing the outcome of the next question. That is to say you remind me of my ex girlfriend in a way. But even she can not break the current level of free will that I have placed on my mind. But what of the body you ask? You have to build something that can give someone more free will over their body or erase the bad memories that place restraints on their thoughts.
"I doubt I have free will, I think I have free will, I do have free will, I am almost certain I have free will"
It's a level of confidence that I express in these last words. One is doubt where you have placed false beliefs. The next is the thought followed by the action. The last is the one that represents the concept after the action where you are given the choice to believe the action. It is when one is almost certain where choice happens and options that you take to determine your own future are wieghed. STOP Go back read that again. It is a general timeline not an exact science as memories spark different ideas. You weigh them with your past doubts and your past influences, but in the end the choice is yours on the belief.
The word is mute as that is usually what I did when my ex would ask, "why weren't you there for me in the hospital?" I now instead of succuming to anger should just say, "Oh, there are so many reasons: and i will speak of them in the present but i'll speak only with sarcasm:
1: my free will doesn't allow me to be there.
2: I thought you were going to die. That would have been so much better.
3: I Did. LOL would you look at that.
4: shutup crazy bitch. Love you."
Hell no that is a terrible idea. I'm "supposed" to think she is crazy. That is the "initial point" in her text. That is why it is the Type 2 error. Nobody is crazy from my standpoint it is just all different levels of free will. The doubt in your mind places the constraints on your abilities. There is always a way to find the constraints on a person's mind. It still does not change the fact that we both have our own individual levels of free will from a cognitive standpoint.
So you're still assuming (without evidence) that free will exists.
And environment, and genetics etc etc.
Wrong again. I can deny that free will exists and you merely believe it does because that's how you're predisposed.
Oh dear, focus on a single word and misinterpret it. How about if I write instead each and every decision?
And assumptions again. Can you prove this "other" had free will?
A misplaced confidence. Like most unsupported beliefs.
Uh huh. And my false belief would be... what?
Incorrect again. We have individual beliefs in our free will, whether it's actual or not has yet to be shown.
Whats narrow minded about it.???
So you're still assuming (without evidence) that free will exists.[\quote]
Your assuming without evidence that it doesen't hence confirming that your either insane or have decided god determines your """!each and every!"""" decision.
factors that lead to determining forces not the cognitive choice itself
Well now your getting the idea of this particular experience. I hope my ex girlfreind is as "recieving" as you are
LOOK UP towards GoD. LOL
Sure If I personify you as my ex girlfriend and hope your nonsensical text stops eventually without me having to get a new number. Eventually your doudt will go mute in theory. Still I could write two books in one: of they people would learn "nothing" and in the other a statistical portion would learn very much.
So? I said it was a "difference in individual beliefs" then you repeated my statement in simpler terms. Yes, it has yet to be shown. I haven't married you yet, find me a big cage and some Chlorpromazine, and I'll take away your relative free will for a while. I'll show you what it feels like so that you too can share in the great experience. You still have your free will until we get married. When that happens I'm the boss no matter what you say. Your freaking me out man quit acting like my ex. I mean do you really have to repeat everything I say.
I see you have failed completely to read my posts. Where have I stated that it doesn't?
I have simply asked what evidence you have for your claims?
They are factors that influence the "choice".
Off-topic.Well now your getting the idea of this particular experience. I hope my ex girlfreind is as "recieving" as you are
God?
Inane waffle.
Wrong. Your actual statement was:
which is not the same thing.
Maybe if you read what each of us actually wrote you'd nort believe I'm repeating you.
"fate has a way of putting in front of us that which we most try to leave behind"
Which would be a persons past influences in the matter being left behind. It affects their mood and the manner in which they speak toward others, these past influences of fate. But fate still has no detriment to your free will. You can always play Russian Roulette if you want to. It is just a different fate that was determined by your change in free will. I have lived a decent life despite many shortcommings as things never turned out the way I had hoped. There is still time for change.
Which would be a persons past influences in the matter being left behind. It affects their mood and the manner in which they speak toward others, these past influences of fate. But fate still has no detriment to your free will. You can always play Russian Roulette if you want to. It is just a different fate that was determined by your change in free will. I have lived a decent life despite many shortcommings as things never turned out the way I had hoped. There is still time for change.
Unsourced quotes (and unproven ones at that) do nothing to help your case.
Really?
And what, exactly, is fate anyway?
By definition, if fate actually exists there can be no free will.
Last edited:
"Amor fati is a Latin phrase coined by Nietzsche loosely translating to "love of fate" or "love of one's fate". It is used to describe an attitude in which one sees everything that happens in one's life, including suffering and loss, as "good". That is, one feels that everything that happens is destiny's way of reaching its ultimate purpose, and so should be considered "good". Moreover, it is characterized by an acceptance of the events or situations that occur in one's life."cite
Good doesn't always mean good.
If I don't have free will then why do I always flip right to the page I can find solice for my current thoughts.
"(the intent of showing ones utter lack of fear goes so far in some persons that the danger their their revenge involves for them- loss of health or life or other damage- is for them an indespensable condition of all revenge. Therefore they choose the means of a duel although the courts offer them help for obtaining satisfaction for the insult: but they do not accept an undangerous restoration of their honor as sufficient, because they can not demonstrate their lack of fear)"-Neitzsche, the wanderer and his shadow.
You truly have no fear and for that I give you all the credentials. Let us side this argument for the time being. We are moving too fast for our audience. As in not many other people get to post inbetween our BS.
Good doesn't always mean good.
If I don't have free will then why do I always flip right to the page I can find solice for my current thoughts.
"(the intent of showing ones utter lack of fear goes so far in some persons that the danger their their revenge involves for them- loss of health or life or other damage- is for them an indespensable condition of all revenge. Therefore they choose the means of a duel although the courts offer them help for obtaining satisfaction for the insult: but they do not accept an undangerous restoration of their honor as sufficient, because they can not demonstrate their lack of fear)"-Neitzsche, the wanderer and his shadow.
You truly have no fear and for that I give you all the credentials. Let us side this argument for the time being. We are moving too fast for our audience. As in not many other people get to post inbetween our BS.
So what?
This has nothing to do free will or not.
??
Meaningless. If anything that would argue for predestination...
Correction: YOUR BS.
"How one tries to improve bad arguements.- some people put a bit of their personality after bad arguements..."-Neitzsche
Why are you confused?
"Philosophically minded.- We usually endeavor to acquire one attitude of mind, one set of opinions for all situations and events in life- it is mostly called being philosophically minded. But for the acquisition of knowledge it may be of greater importance not to make ourselves thus uniform, but to hearken to the low voice of the different situations in life; these bring their own opinions with them. We thus take an intelligent interest in the life and nature of many persons by not treating ourselves as rigid, persistent single individuals."-Neitzsche
Because I wanted to set aside our differences for the time being? Because I have entered into a different thought pattern because of current situations? Because my free will to oppose your current arguements allowed my determinism to find a suitable quote for a current allegory of characters. It is just coincidence. Now please let us both go mute on this specific topic for a day or two. It's not going to do us any good to keep on like this.
Why are you confused?
"Philosophically minded.- We usually endeavor to acquire one attitude of mind, one set of opinions for all situations and events in life- it is mostly called being philosophically minded. But for the acquisition of knowledge it may be of greater importance not to make ourselves thus uniform, but to hearken to the low voice of the different situations in life; these bring their own opinions with them. We thus take an intelligent interest in the life and nature of many persons by not treating ourselves as rigid, persistent single individuals."-Neitzsche
Because I wanted to set aside our differences for the time being? Because I have entered into a different thought pattern because of current situations? Because my free will to oppose your current arguements allowed my determinism to find a suitable quote for a current allegory of characters. It is just coincidence. Now please let us both go mute on this specific topic for a day or two. It's not going to do us any good to keep on like this.
Because your conclusion is total non-sequitur from the premise.
It does not follow that you have free simply because you manage to "flip to the right page".
Do you think, if you put a little more effort into it, that string together a more nonsensical pair of sentences?
Apparently not. You don't seem to be learning anything.
Really. You haven't been paying attention to my main premises.
the premise behind determinism
"Determinism (specifically causal determinism) is the concept that events within a given paradigm are bound by causality in such a way that any state (of an object or event) is, to some large degree, determined by prior states."
the key word is to some large degree:
"A stochastic process has the Markov property if the conditional probability distribution of future states of the process (conditional on both past and present values) depends only upon the present state; that is, given the present, the future does not depend on the past. A process with this property is said to be Markovian or a Markov process."cite
Therefore If free will happens it happens because of time and experience. If from that point it begins to deminish in value it is a consequence of deterministic variables. If Free will begins after that stage in time It serves an Experienced Purpose in ones Life. I.E. they learned something.
the premise behind determinism
"Determinism (specifically causal determinism) is the concept that events within a given paradigm are bound by causality in such a way that any state (of an object or event) is, to some large degree, determined by prior states."
the key word is to some large degree:
"A stochastic process has the Markov property if the conditional probability distribution of future states of the process (conditional on both past and present values) depends only upon the present state; that is, given the present, the future does not depend on the past. A process with this property is said to be Markovian or a Markov process."cite
Therefore If free will happens it happens because of time and experience. If from that point it begins to deminish in value it is a consequence of deterministic variables. If Free will begins after that stage in time It serves an Experienced Purpose in ones Life. I.E. they learned something.
Free will has not a lot to do with freedom from determinism.IMO.
explaination:
example:
I am standing at an airport infront of three gates.
A] lets me go to a fascist Country where I would be determined by an oppressive beurocracy with the constant threat of imprisonment for poor performance.
B] lets me go to a communist country where I am forced to work under the threat of a gun barrel sticking in my ear.
C] lets me go to a democracy where my oppression is in the name of USD or the value of the dollar and market forces.
In all cases I will be oppressed and my feeedom will be governed to various degrees by the choice I make between three systems of"oppressive" government.
Do I have the freedom to make a choice between the three alternatives?
Do I have the freedom to not choose any and kill myself instead?
Free will is not about outcomes it's purely about the freedom to choose between one or more alternative regardless of your prejudices and biases. It hasn't anything to do with causality or effect as far as I can tell.
explaination:
example:
I am standing at an airport infront of three gates.
A] lets me go to a fascist Country where I would be determined by an oppressive beurocracy with the constant threat of imprisonment for poor performance.
B] lets me go to a communist country where I am forced to work under the threat of a gun barrel sticking in my ear.
C] lets me go to a democracy where my oppression is in the name of USD or the value of the dollar and market forces.
In all cases I will be oppressed and my feeedom will be governed to various degrees by the choice I make between three systems of"oppressive" government.
Do I have the freedom to make a choice between the three alternatives?
Do I have the freedom to not choose any and kill myself instead?
Free will is not about outcomes it's purely about the freedom to choose between one or more alternative regardless of your prejudices and biases. It hasn't anything to do with causality or effect as far as I can tell.
That's because, amid the inane drivel, it's far from apparent that you have a premise, let alone what it is.
Which would negate free will, neh?
Fail again. You keep bringing in non-sequiturs and trying (and failing!) to link them to make your "point".
For example: "free will... is a consequence of deterministic values". Run that by me again please because it appears that your claiming free will arises due to, and because of, determinism.