Describing Homosexuality

As in "not artificial". :rolleyes:

What do you mean by "not artificial"?

It occurs throughout the animal kingdom,

You have supporting studies, yes?

so Bisahdi's contention that it's an artefact of culture is flawed.

Not so. Your train of thought is flawed. Simply because certain behaviour is exhibited by a small proportion of subjects in a non-human species is in no way evidence that said behaviour is not the product of culture in the human species.

And maybe you should either read the relevant threads (since you already seem to have had at least a quick glance at one or more of them) or Google.
This is old territory and it's simply Bishadi's failure to accept or understand facts that's keeping it going (and even starting this thread).

Or perhaps it is your failure to give clear and concise definitions of your terms, along with appropriate and relevant supporting evidence? For instance, I asked you to define what you meant by 'natural behaviour', and instead of providing an appropriate definition, you just evaded the question.
 
Bishadi,

following a few beers I got to thinking. Why don't you do this little experiment and then report back on your finds. Type into google hot gay sex. Then watch some gay porn. Now, tell us how you feel after watching said gay porn. IF you do that, then send the links around and we will all watch some gay porn and tell you how we felt. Let's all promise to be honest.

We'll see what sort of results pop up :)

That's fair enough isn't it?
1 2 3 go!
 
What do you mean by "not artificial"?
Which bit of "natural" or "not a construct of culture" did you miss?
Which bit of "occurs in the animal kingdom" did you miss?

You have supporting studies, yes?
Already stated: links given in the relevant threads.

Not so. Your train of thought is flawed. Simply because certain behaviour is exhibited by a small proportion of subjects in a non-human species is in no way evidence that said behaviour is not the product of culture in the human species.
Wrong again.
Please explain how human culture could affect dolphins, bonobos, giraffes, hedgehogs, swans, ducks etc in the wild.
Small proportion? If you actually read the threads in question one study shows that in giraffes, for example, homosexual sex outnumbers heterosexual sex.

Or perhaps it is your failure to give clear and concise definitions of your terms, along with appropriate and relevant supporting evidence? For instance, I asked you to define what you meant by 'natural behaviour', and instead of providing an appropriate definition, you just evaded the question.
Or perhaps it's simply your comprehension, or lack of, that's at fault.
 
Thank you for your reply in the first part of your last response to me. It was helpful of you to demonstrate that you have difficulties writing in English. I shall try to keep this in mind.
Moving on:
Bishad said:
ie.... sharing that species which is a RARE one and without a TV, the majority on earth would have no clue it even exists; how can that example be used to define a choice that mankind can overcome?
You are stubbornly missing the point. Many animals consistently use sex for other than procreation. You have denied this repeatedly. Are you still denying this and if so on what basis? This is a science forum and justification is needed for unusual claims - which yours assuredly is.
 
Please explain how human culture could affect dolphins, bonobos, giraffes, hedgehogs, swans, ducks etc in the wild.
Small proportion? If you actually read the threads in question one study shows that in giraffes, for example, homosexual sex outnumbers heterosexual sex.
The 'homosexuality' of animals is misleading. It is more often homosociality. It may be bi-sexuality. There are also some of these cases where its developmental homosexuality (ie the animal grows out of it at maturity), or its a seasonal thing (observed during certain times of the year), possibly due to hormonal changes which helps keep the animals in question from fighting for dominance (ie winning the female) year round.

From wiki regarding black swans:

"Having access to more food the brood have up to ten times the survival rate of a brood with a heterosexual swan couple. From an evolutionary point of view, this is a very rewarding strategy for the cobs as well.

This situation only holds true as long as a nest and/or a territory is in short supply. The two males will have a fitness loss in that they (1) have no guarantee they are the actual fathers of the cygnets (not being bonded with the female) and (2) will have to split reproduction between them.

A same-sex lifestyle will be advantageous in some situations, but not in others. However, having a partner is a requisite for building a nest and keeping a territory, and an opposite-sex partner may not always be available when forming pairs. Thus, the ability to form a male pair is a normal part of the black swan’s social behaviour and an example of a flexible life strategy in the species."

What the above doesnt clarify is whether an increase in female swans/habitat creates a dissolution of the homosocial male bonds in Black swans.

I believe research indicates bonobos are bi-sexual/social as their norm.

And there are other issues. For example, when we raised dogs one of the sure fire signs a female had picked up a urinary tract infection was the sexual attention given to that female, by both male and female dogs. Clear up the infection and the sexual attention went away. We have no idea if this is a factor in the observations in the wild.

Anyways, more study is needed for sure.
 
Thank you for your reply in the first part of your last response to me. It was helpful of you to demonstrate that you have difficulties writing in English. I shall try to keep this in mind.


which is why i keep in mind, the low character of your opinion

Moving on:You are stubbornly missing the point.
sorry, the thread is on describing, not complacent acceptance of 'unique examples' being considered normal


Many animals consistently use sex for other than procreation.
the instinct of doing the wild thing; have you ever had a dog do your leg; he aint thinking about what he is doing; get over it!

You have denied this repeatedly.
i am not denying evidence/examples..... just as i am not killing people just because it happens in nature, naturally.

Are you still denying this and if so on what basis? This is a science forum and justification is needed for unusual claims - which yours assuredly is.

the only thing UNUSUAL about me, is i am honest and that bug the crap out of people.


we are describing so others can understand; i could care less about the politics

but be certain; each person who reads these threads will either learn or not

the oooosual scenario is the complacent

the unusual will be the ones with aforethought, considering the overall implications.


big difference and based on the KIND of people

Peace sells, but who's buyin'?
 
The 'homosexuality' of animals is misleading. It is more often homosociality. It may be bi-sexuality. There are also some of these cases where its developmental homosexuality (ie the animal grows out of it at maturity), or its a seasonal thing (observed during certain times of the year), possibly due to hormonal changes which helps keep the animals in question from fighting for dominance (ie winning the female) year round.

finally, an intelligent consideration of the information

SOMEone, at least comprehending the thread title and the idea behind combining information and perspective.
 
the instinct of doing the wild thing; have you ever had a dog do your leg; he aint thinking about what he is doing; get over it!
Except that you've also claimed:
ie... in nature the 'vast majority' of sex IS FOR PROCREATION
So do they think about it or not?
If they don't then it's not sex for procreation.

the only thing UNUSUAL about me, is i am honest and that bug the crap out of people.
Honest?
When you say "honest" do you mean "invents statistics"?

i could care less about the politics
So why the crap about "assisting"?
Another example of dishonesty from you?
 
Nope.
The studies referred to actual sex, not socialisation.

1. wiki article on Black Swans
"A 2007 exhibition at the Natural History Museum at the University of Oslo in Norway called Against Nature? explored homosexual behaviours in a number of species, including black swans. Several swan species exhibit lifelong homosocial behaviours, and the same phenomenon can also be found in a number of other water-birds, notably geese and flamingos, where it serves as a flexible life strategy."

Yet the same article describes males luring females in for mating, then chasing them off after the eggs are laid. Homosexual or bi-sexual, or homosocial/asexual?

define Homosocial:
In sociology, homosociality describes same-sex relationships that are not necessarily of a sexual nature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosocial

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giraffe

For the above giraffe link, one source is cited for the information (1967) and without access to the article, one cannot determine whether this individual has lumped all homosocial activities under the banner homosexual, or whether the editor of the article(s) has mis-interpreted the behavior that was documented.

Searching google, scholarly articles for "homosexuality" and "giraffe" brings up one more reference, again very old:

Innes, A. C., 1958, The behaviour of the giraffe, Gtra//a carnelopardalts, in the eastern Transvaal. Proc. 2001. Soc. London 131: 245-278.

Again, is it homosocial, bi-sexual or maturity related or possibly hormonal.

Having seen a number of herd/pack animals behaviors, it is not uncommon for mounting behaviors, which are simply dominance manuvers being mis-applied, most often by young animals of a particular group. As they practice the kill with their play, they also practice/play group social structures.

What I have yet to see, is a willing partner for these (my own observations) alleged homosexual encounters. It is as vague an idea as the joking around between men who goose a bent over buddy just to give him a startle being an indication of homosexuality.

One that I would be willing to describe as potentially 'documented' is the pair of apparently homosexual penguins in a zoo in Germany. When a female was introduced, it did not affect the pairing of the two male penguins in this zoo, however, a similar example in (I believe a california zoo) with an apparent male to male coupling was broken with the introduction of a female. In addition there is Roy and Silo:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_and_Silo

Which is an interesting read, for the egg they hatched was female, a female who paired up with another female (I dont know if this continues).

Similar to the questions I have about the Black swan reference and my curiosity as to whether this homosocial relationship is broken via extra females in the habitat, or a temporary condition as revealed with Roy and Silo.

Then there is the "what is a homosexual animal?" for the wiki definition:

The correct usage of the term homosexual is that an animal exhibits homosexual behavior, however this article conforms to the usage by modern research applying the term homosexuality to all sexual behavior (copulation, genital stimulation, mating games and sexual display behavior) between animals of the same sex. In most instances, it is presumed that the homosexual behavior is but part of the animal's overall sexual behavioral repertoire, making the animal "bisexual" rather than "homosexual" as the terms are commonly understood in humans.

One can foresee the outrage in locker rooms across america should this definition be applied to human males, who often pat each others asses (just watch football) and other 'display behaviors' as some academic tries to foist the 'bi-sexual' label on them.
 
http://www.news-medical.net/news/2006/10/23/20718.aspx
1,500 animal species practice homosexuality
23. October 2006 16:28
Homosexuality is quite common in the animal kingdom, especially among herding animals. Many animals solve conflicts by practicing same gender sex.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals
No species has been found in which homosexual behaviour has not been shown to exist, with the exception of species that never have sex at all, such as sea urchins and aphis. Moreover, a part of the animal kingdom is hermaphroditic, truly bisexual. For them, homosexuality is not an issue.[18]


Granted bisexual may be a better term term, but bisexual does include homosexual sex...
 
First, this is a museum trying to generate interest in their display. Reading over the article it makes some powerful claims, such as "homosexuality is common".

It seems to me the entire display is based on much speculation.

From the article:
"The most well-known homosexual animal is the dwarf chimpanzee, one of humanity's closes relatives. The entire species is bisexual."

See the conflict in the above? Bonobo's (dwarf chimps) are bi-sexual, not homosexual.

Quote from article:
"Indeed, there is a number of animals in which homosexual behaviour has never been observed, such as many insects, passerine birds and small mammals."
Followed by:
"To turn the approach on its head: No species has been found in which homosexual behaviour has not been shown to exist, with the exception of species that never have sex at all, such as sea urchins and aphis."

I am always hesitant to assign as true an article which has so many conflicts within its context. The entire article is riddled with unquantified terms such as "common" mostly coming from this man - Petter Boeckman (for this article).

No species has been found in which homosexual behaviour has not been shown to exist, with the exception of species that never have sex at all, such as sea urchins and aphis. Moreover, a part of the animal kingdom is hermaphroditic, truly bisexual. For them, homosexuality is not an issue.[18]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

The above is speculation, not fact. You forgot the leading sentence in the wiki linked article:

'While studies have demonstrated homosexual behavior in a number of species, Petter Bøckman, the scientific advisor of the exhibition Against Nature? speculates that the true extent of the phenomenon may be much larger than currently recognized:"

So petter Bockman speculates "no specie has been found". Very different context.

I did a search on Petter Bockman. He has no scholarly articles, he has no published papers, he has little history other than this one museum display.

But, sex sells.

Granted bisexual may be a better term term, but bisexual does include homosexual sex...

In humans, few are homosexual, some are bi-sexual, most are heterosexual. I know several people who experimented with same sex partnering in their youth, who would not participate in those encounters now. Simply put, they have no desire. Body changes, ie hormones most likely. Developmental sexual variable.

The claims are 'homosexual'. From people trying to present themselves as scientists. And that bothers me. Another name that keeps coming up in all the searches is Bagemihl. So I did a search on him.

"Bagemihl's ideas have caused a stir in the higher, human community, especially among scientists who find it simplistic to equate any animal behavior with human behavior."

"Sexuality helps animals maneuver around each other before making real contact," says Martin Daly, an evolutionary psychologist at McMaster University in Ontario. "Putting all that into a homosexual category seems simplistic."

"Animal sexuality is more complex than we imagined," says Bagemihl.
Keeping in mind, Sex Sells:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,990813-1,00.html

If its more complex, why is he (bagemihl) so determined to fit all of it into homosexual? Where is asexual? Where is autoerotic? Where is homosocial in all his 'research'?

Heres an article I havent had time to pick apart and translate yet. Its on various bird species.

http://beheco.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/18/1/21.pdf

A snippet from above:

"A pattern has been observed in many representatives of Laridae (Gulls) in which supernormal clutches (associated with FF pairing, courtship, mounting, and coparenting) are more frequent when the population exhibits a female-biased sex ratio (Hatch 1993; Bagemihl 1999; Nisbet and Hatch 1999).

These studies experimentally manipulated the sex ratio to produce a female bias by removing males. The frequency of supernormal clutches of 4–6 eggs (a measure or index of FF pairings) was greater in colonies from which males had been removed than it was in control colonies (Conover and Hunt 1984). It may be advantageous for females to pair with other females and coparent while seeking extrapair reproductive opportunity with paired males (to obtain fertilized eggs). Mills (1991) found that although FF pairs in silver gulls, L. novaehollandiae, have a lower overall lifetime reproductive success thanMF pairs (0.85 FF vs. 1.91 MF, mean number of offspring fledged in lifetime), over 50% of females in populations do not breed at all."
 
Have any real homosexuals actually posted in this thread.

~String

what an offensive thing to suggest.
what madness and complete loss of community will ensue if the religious right wing cant use homo hate to foster their churches and organizational structures ?

why you should be outted for such a statement !

gay hate has become an integral part of personal self actualisation for many religious organizations.
without all that hate they would never have enough love to hold a mad hatters tea party little own an educated group of adults together.

dont deny a dying hate filled group of evolutionary throw backs their spite and vitriol... you big meany :p
 
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