Definitive vs. descriptive view of a particular religion

wynn

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Valued Senior Member
Definitive vs. descriptive view of a particular religion


If we look into a dictionary or an encyclopedia, we see terms such as "Christianity," "Catholicism," "Protestantism," "Judaism," "Islam," "Hinduism," "Buddhism" all rather neatly defined and separate from eachother.

But when we look into the world and the way one person who considers themselves a "Christian" differs from another who also considers themselves a "Christian," or a "Buddhist" from another "Buddhist" etc. etc. we see that these categories are not so clearly definable at all.

How do we decide what is true "Christianity," true "Catholicism," true "Protestantism," true "Judaism," true "Islam," true "Hinduism," true "Buddhism"?


To paraphrase Yazata,
What views are (or arguably should be) definitive of what true Judaism/Christianity/Buddhism/etc. should be,
as opposed to descriptive of the views that Jews/Christians/Buddhists/etc. actually hold in real life?
 
Definitive vs. descriptive view of a particular religion


If we look into a dictionary or an encyclopedia, we see terms such as "Christianity," "Catholicism," "Protestantism," "Judaism," "Islam," "Hinduism," "Buddhism" all rather neatly defined and separate from eachother.

But when we look into the world and the way one person who considers themselves a "Christian" differs from another who also considers themselves a "Christian," or a "Buddhist" from another "Buddhist" etc. etc. we see that these categories are not so clearly definable at all.

The religious texts these faiths are based on tend to be self-contradictory, so the particulars of what an individual believes within that faith can vary greatly. This does not mean that Christianity cannot be defined as "Belief in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior," because that's precisely what it is. No matter which denomination you are, that's what you believe as a Christian.

How do we decide what is true "Christianity," true "Catholicism," true "Protestantism," true "Judaism," true "Islam," true "Hinduism," true "Buddhism"?

There is no such thing. They squabble over details large and small, and just about all of them can find warrant for the righteousness of their argument in the text. In other words, they can all make the claim that they have the correct understanding, and they'd all be right.
 
But when we look into the world and the way one person who considers themselves a "Christian" differs from another who also considers themselves a "Christian," or a "Buddhist" from another "Buddhist" etc. etc. we see that these categories are not so clearly definable at all.

How do we decide what is true "Christianity," true "Catholicism," true "Protestantism," true "Judaism," true "Islam," true "Hinduism," true "Buddhism"?

As practiced, there is no one "true" Christianity. Russian Orthodox followers call themselves Christian, but so do Mormons and so do "born again" evangelicals. They agree on some points of religion, but differ on many others. "Christianity" is an umbrella term used to refer to any follower of Christ, but there are many ways of following Christ.

There's no single authority who says "You can't be a Christian unless you believe X, Y and Z and practice A, B and C." Rather, there are many variant types of Christianity. One variant holds that you need to do A, B and C; another holds that you need to do D,E and F. Neither is accepted as having authority over the other.
 
As practiced, there is no one "true" Christianity. Russian Orthodox followers call themselves Christian, but so do Mormons and so do "born again" evangelicals. They agree on some points of religion, but differ on many others. "Christianity" is an umbrella term used to refer to any follower of Christ, but there are many ways of following Christ.

There's no single authority who says "You can't be a Christian unless you believe X, Y and Z and practice A, B and C." Rather, there are many variant types of Christianity. One variant holds that you need to do A, B and C; another holds that you need to do D,E and F. Neither is accepted as having authority over the other.
If its the case that there is no singular quality to define the category one could talk of muslims and buddhists and even atheists being christians.

Of course that is not the case.

What I do generally find is that atheists prefer to talk of there being no "true' quality since having a broad category suits their purposes of painting it as necessarily contradictory, hodge podge, etc
 
As practiced, there is no one "true" Christianity. Russian Orthodox followers call themselves Christian, but so do Mormons and so do "born again" evangelicals. They agree on some points of religion, but differ on many others. "Christianity" is an umbrella term used to refer to any follower of Christ, but there are many ways of following Christ.

There's no single authority who says "You can't be a Christian unless you believe X, Y and Z and practice A, B and C." Rather, there are many variant types of Christianity. One variant holds that you need to do A, B and C; another holds that you need to do D,E and F. Neither is accepted as having authority over the other.

The fact is that we do have terms like "Christian," "Muslim," "Hindu" etc. etc.,
they are written down in dictionaries and encyclopedias,
and we use them regularly.

So, clearly, those terms must mean something.
They can't mean just anything, nor are they interchangeable.

When we use them, we do so with the implicit assumption that we use them in the sense of 'true Christianity', 'true Islam', 'true Buddhism' etc.

Moreover, given the disputes among those who all use the same term, but each mean something different by it, the issue is apparently relevant.
 
If its the case that there is no singular quality to define the category one could talk of muslims and buddhists and even atheists being christians.

Of course that is not the case.

Didn't you read what I wrote? I said: "'Christianity' is an umbrella term used to refer to any follower of Christ".

Do you think you can you glean from that a singular quality to define the category, perhaps?

The fact is that we do have terms like "Christian," "Muslim," "Hindu" etc. etc.,
they are written down in dictionaries and encyclopedias,
and we use them regularly.

So, clearly, those terms must mean something.
They can't mean just anything, nor are they interchangeable.

See above.

When we use them, we do so with the implicit assumption that we use them in the sense of 'true Christianity', 'true Islam', 'true Buddhism' etc.

I don't. I'm saying there is no "true" Christianity. I even explained why in my first post, above.
 
If there is no such thing as "true Christianity," then there is no Christianity, not even as an umbrella term.
 
Do you think there is a True Christianity, wynn? If so, which one is the True one, and why?
 
If we look into a dictionary or an encyclopedia, we see terms such as "Christianity," "Catholicism," "Protestantism," "Judaism," "Islam," "Hinduism," "Buddhism" all rather neatly defined and separate from eachother.

People like labels. They like nice clear concepts that they can move around and deploy like pieces on a chess-board.

It's likely that participants on a science-oriented discussion board feel that a lot more strongly than humanities-types. Tech-geeks are used to working with precisely-defined technical vocabularies, while poets love ambiguity, analogy and allusion.

But when we look into the world and the way one person who considers themselves a "Christian" differs from another who also considers themselves a "Christian," or a "Buddhist" from another "Buddhist" etc. etc. we see that these categories are not so clearly definable at all.

Many of our ordinary-language concepts are like that. They are what philosophers sometimes call 'family resemblance' concepts. The various examples embraced by a particular concept needn't necessarily share any single definitive essence in common. But they will share many characteristics in common with many other members of the set, even if there's no single characteristic that all of them possess.

How do we decide what is true "Christianity," true "Catholicism," true "Protestantism," true "Judaism," true "Islam," true "Hinduism," true "Buddhism"?

I'm inclined to perceive these things as historical traditions. So we would need to inquire into whether or not particular religious expressions are continuous with a tradition, are embraced by it or arise out of it.

Mahayana Buddhism differs from Pali Buddhism in various ways, sometimes so dramatically that they seem like different religions. But as an example, it's possible to show how the Boddhisattva ideal is present in embryonic form in the Pali suttas, how it grew in prominence in popular Buddhism and in the Jatakas, how it was shaped by the early controversites about Arahants' attainments, and so on.

So in Buddhism's case, we can watch the tradition getting broader and broader, as more and more ideas arose in it, eventually to the point where one side of the tradition didn't much resemble the other side. But there was still a sense that everyone was a Buddhist, a follower of the Buddha sasana, even if many Buddhists felt that people on the other extreme were adding uncanonical innovations or were practicing an inferior form of Buddhism. (It's not unlike Catholics and Protestants, who criticize each other but still accept each other as being Christians.)

Of course, in keeping with the family-resemblance nature of religious traditions, the historical continuity approach doesn't always work.

It's possible to make a very similar argument that Christianity and Judaism are continuous. The early new testament Christians certainly thought that they were. They were ethnic Jews, by and large, they believed and thought in thoroughly Jewish terms, they thought of the Hebrew scriptures as their own, and so on. There are no end of formative ideas of early Christianity in the inter-testamental Jewish apocalyptic literature. The new Christians were Jews preaching that the Messiah had come and that the Kingdom was dawning.

In this case, what made the two religions bifurcate into two distinct faiths is that most Jews didn't accepted the Christian claims, dismissed them as outlandish and impious, and unlike the Buddhist case, gradually came to perceive the new innovators as heretics and stopped accepting them as followers of their own Jewish faith. And within a few generations the new Christians were doing the same thing right back, rejecting the old Jews as outsiders, and imagining Christianity as if it was a whole new kind of Judaism that God had reached into history to create, with its own new covenant, destined to embrace the world and usher in the Kingdom.
 
There are agreed upon definitions of these religions.
To be a Christian, you have to believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, that he died for your sins, and that we are born in sin, and rose on the third day.
To be a Muslim, you don't believe in the divinity of Christ, but he was a prophet like Mohammed who brought the world the last and definitive testament from God.
Catholics are Christians who also accept the authority of the Pope to interpret God's will, and they accept the Trinity.
Protestants are Christians who accept no particular authority with regard to interpretation of the Bible.
Jews accept the Torah but not the New Testament, believe they are God's chosen people, and reject hell and heaven.

Not sure about Hinduism or Buddhism, traditionally they are less dogmatic as befitting religions that come from multicultural societies. Anyone can call themselves a Buddhist if they follow any portion of Buddhist teachings.
 
If there is no such thing as "true Christianity," then there is no Christianity, not even as an umbrella term.

That's a fallacious argument, Wynn. "True Christianity" means "Correct Christianity," and there is no such thing as that, given the source from which they draw their faith. They have a nearly two-millenia old book that is broad, often contradictory, and can be interpreted hundreds of different ways, as evidenced by the hundreds of denominations, splinters, and splinters of splinters.

Of course, Christianity only works as an umbrella term. Further clarification is required to differentiate between Baptists and Catholics, for example, or Evangelicals and Mormons.
 
Do you think there is a True Christianity, wynn? If so, which one is the True one, and why?

I don't know, but I do believe that a term must mean something.
A word can't mean just anything, if we are to use it meaningfully.
 
Oh, you mean a fundamentalist Buddhist. If I had to pin it down, there are indeed a set of things one is expected to accept to be truly called a Buddhist, the Noble Truths, yada yada yada...
 
Spidergoat said:
Anyone can call themselves a Buddhist if they follow any portion of Buddhist teachings.

But not anyone who calls themselves a Buddhist will endure that, and will, sometimes aggressively, act against those.

Spidergoat said:

wynn said:
I guess you've never met a Buddhist supremacist.

I never have. Though historically, some of the Nicheren Buddhists may have approached it. They certainly favored medieval Japanese government suppression of all forms of Buddhism but their own.

Spidergoat said:
Oh, you mean a fundamentalist Buddhist. If I had to pin it down, there are indeed a set of things one is expected to accept to be truly called a Buddhist, the Noble Truths, yada yada yada...

I guess that a person would have to accept some critical mass of ideas, doctrines and practices from the Buddhist tradition, in order to justify our applying the word 'Buddhist' to them.

It would have to be something more substantial than "any portion of Buddhist teachings". That's probably too weak a criterion. After all, the "golden rule" is found in Christianity and Confucianism (and probably many other places as well) as well as in Buddhism. Hindus have a very similar karma theory, general ideas about samsara and moksha, and so on.

Traditionally, in order to become a Buddhist, one "takes refuge" in the three jewels of Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. Some Buddhist groups treat this as a formal ceremony, analogous to baptism, I guess, but it needn't be. People can just do it. And of course there are all kinds of different Buddhologies out there, many different interpretations of the Dharma, and Sangha can mean anything from the order of monks (itself very diverse) to pretty much any Buddhists that somebody chooses to associate with. So there's plenty of wiggle-room. (But yeah, there are ideas like the four noble truths that do seem to be pretty close to being Buddhist universals.)

From my experience, Buddhists aren't likely to say that somebody who practices a very different form of Buddhism isn't a Buddhist at all. But they may or may not be skeptical about or dismissive of the kind of Buddhism that the other person practices. Buddhists often think that their own form of Buddhism is the best.
 
The point is that there are commonly accepted definitions of almost all religions and what it takes to be a member. Of course this cannot account for all believers, but I think it's important as a starting point. Hitchens used to say that most people don't know why they call themselves Baptists for example, they don't know the first thing about what separates their sect from others.
 
The point is that there are commonly accepted definitions of almost all religions and what it takes to be a member. Of course this cannot account for all believers, but I think it's important as a starting point. Hitchens used to say that most people don't know why they call themselves Baptists for example, they don't know the first thing about what separates their sect from others.

Well, yes, but each denomination has its own beliefs that separate it from other denominations, so what you end up with are a bunch of different Christian faiths.
 
Yes, but all the Christian sects believe the basic tenets of Christianity, they only differ on some details.
 
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