during this discussion with whitewolf I and we came up with a universal definition of a god and the requirements to be/become one. read and discuss/object/do whatever else
p.s. belijvolk is whitewolf
belijvolk: what is a god?
Avatar: a being who's desires are not limited by dreams
belijvolk: so there are some whose desires are limited?
Avatar: no, I meant that the fulfillment of desires is virtual / in dreams, but they never become true. If all desires are fulfilled then you are a god. but a god can also be a tiny god only for himself. it is somewhat better that if others also would think so. someone's desire may be to get drubk every day. and if he does, he's no god in my oppinion
Avatar: desires which are thought to be impossible
belijvolk: so some desires are good, and some arent.... the ones that would be considered impossible to achieve are the good ones, as you say?
belijvolk: (by good, i mean working in the definition of god)
Avatar: no. I don't think that terms good/bad can be used. they are too relative and human made. a god should be universal. imho the desires which would make you a god must also help in the advancement of your species
belijvolk: so what would help our species advance, in your opinion?
Avatar: for example. a desire to be immortal, a desire to travel to the stars, a desire tocreate beautiful music which would inspire a generation of artists
Avatar: social, technical, spiritual ... there are many ways to imporve ourselves
Avatar: *technological
belijvolk: many have these ambitions.
belijvolk: few succeed in achieving them.
Avatar: but few fulfill them and that is what counts. the fulfillment of our dreams
belijvolk: is there anything more than pure desire that makes a god, then?
belijvolk: (speaking in terms of abilities)
Avatar: the ability to transform the desire to physical reality
Avatar: that's all
Avatar: a god must not be by definition all knowing if he doesn't desire that
Avatar: that goes for all powerful and eternal also
belijvolk: a drunkard transforms his desire into reality.
belijvolk: he does not contribute to society, for he is a drunkard.
belijvolk: and that may be good, since we do not need contributions of drunkards
Avatar: if his desires would be other than to get drunk then he wouldn't be a drunkard
Avatar: or he lacks the ability to be not a drunkard and then he is not a god also
belijvolk: his desire (to be drunk) helps us advance by keeping him quiet and away.
belijvolk: no?
Avatar: no - it doesn't help to advance. only to not slowen the pace. besides one drunkard doesn't affect all socienty - only a very limited population of people
belijvolk: how do you know that a specific inspiration will be a stride forward, not backwards
Avatar: I/we don't . but the results would show
belijvolk: so only time can tell that a god is a god?
Avatar: i.e. bringing the inspiration into physical reality
Avatar: I think that noone can. time is only a vector in our n-dimension universe
belijvolk: so a god will never be recognized, at least not in his lifetime?
Avatar: an interesting situation actually - being a god and not realising it
Avatar: why not - Albert Einstein was
belijvolk: Albert Einstein was jewish, no?
Avatar: he was
belijvolk: if so he didnt worship himself
Avatar: since when do you have to worship all gods? do you worship Shiva or Ra, or Thor?
Avatar: why worship at all
Avatar: but you can admire
Avatar: worshipping is putting yourself in a slave position
belijvolk: he didnt accept himself as a god. like i dont believe ra is a real deity.
belijvolk: so to be god you must also be free, not to be a slave?
Avatar: in a universe where noone can say who is a god and who isn't, that is not important
Avatar: a slave usually can not fulfill his desires
Avatar: because his freedom to act is limited
belijvolk: he is free to try to escape, no?
Avatar: yes. that is a desire he can fulfill
Avatar: and if that is fulfilled, he is not a slave anymore
belijvolk: he may have the potential to escape, but may not want to.
Avatar: if he being a slave can do something that is his desire and that desire becoming reality betters (imporves imho is not the right word) the world then he can be a god. at least imo :-\
Avatar: I can not think of a real world example though
belijvolk: slaves that built pyramids made a contribution.
Avatar: the slaves didn't - they were merely a tool to the mind that governed it
Avatar: architect in this case
belijvolk: if all egyptian slaves (or a sufficient portion of them) went free, there would be no one to build the monuments.
belijvolk: a pyramid is a rather simple architectural structure, since it is most stable.
Avatar: try to build it beforehand and then say it's simple it's very precise in it's simplicity and it also sits on the central axis of the world. forgot how the right name for it was
Avatar: and as for the slaves - the mastermind 's desire is to have someone to bild the pyramid
Avatar: in this case - the slaves
Avatar: Alexander of Macedony was very close to being a god. He wanted to conquer all of the known world, that was his desire. And he would have done it if not for his home-sick soldiers (he merely had left 2/3 of India) By conquering most of it, he brought civilization and culture into many crude and barbaric places and societies.
belijvolk: a pyramid is most stable structure. it is harder to erect a building via post and lintel with columns.
belijvolk: be careful with what you call barbaric,
Avatar: yes, I should
belijvolk: besides, there were many with that mania of conques. like napoleon.
belijvolk: rome.
Avatar: but nonthereless he brought higher culture
belijvolk: if you consider greek culture above indian culture
belijvolk: (western mindset... tsk-tsk-tsk)
Avatar: hmmm hes. western it is. but the majority of the lands were crude anyway
Avatar: and that particular conquest brought long term consequences which allowed the social evolution
Avatar: in this case - time did tell
belijvolk: however he did not achieve his goal fully
Avatar: about pyramid building. there is a saying. ingenious in it's simplicity
Avatar: no, he didn't
belijvolk: so by your definition he is not a god.
Avatar: and I noted that in the begining
Avatar: unfortunately no
belijvolk:
belijvolk: einstein was a god?
Avatar: see my quote [ Avatar: Alexander of Macedony was very close to being a god. ]
belijvolk: (pardon. *blush)
Avatar: one his desire has changed our world. to me he is
Avatar: but I don't worship him, only admire
Avatar: there wouldn't be possible satellite communications for instance if not for him
belijvolk: what was his goal?
Avatar: I'm not sure. but it must have been to have clarity
Avatar: in his desired subject
belijvolk: well, did he achieve clarity for himself?
belijvolk: did he achieve clarity for us?
Avatar: I'm not him therefore I don't know. as for us - yes - in particular areas. before him scientists had invented aether - a mistical substance in order to explain different happenings in the observed universe. Einstein clarified the situation and got rid of that mistical substance.
Avatar: never observed/never witnessed/never proved (as for the christian god) , but scientists thought that it must be (as religious folk think of their god today) because things behaved weird. Now they didn't behave weird - they behaved as they should
Avatar: because we had a better idea/clarity of what the universe is like
belijvolk: better idea, but not a full vision.
Avatar: yes. but advancement is a motion not a goal
Avatar: evolution for that instance also
belijvolk: so, if we dont have a full vision, neither did einstein.
Avatar: I see where you are going no, he didn't have a full vision on our universe
Avatar: but who says that there is only one universe. there can always be a fuller vision
Avatar: a potential fuller vision
belijvolk: so if he didnt have the full vision that he was searching for, he was not a god.
Avatar: no - just an idol then
Avatar: *laughs
Avatar: you destroyed my god!!! Avatar takes his barbaric war axe and points it at belijvolk
* Avatar laughs again
belijvolk: you give up the god easier than definition of him?
Avatar: yes. because a definition by definition is universal.
Avatar: if he is not a god, then I should not call him a such. I can still admire him for the higher level of clarity he brought though
Avatar: just as you did in my perception towards him and my definition
belijvolk: so who is god, then?
Avatar: a being who's desires are not limited by reality and he has the ability to transfor them into our physical universe and by doing so imporoving the state of the overall advancement of his species or any other species which is at the same level as his specie would be/is
Avatar: that is if he is the last living being of his specie left
belijvolk: is there a god impersonated?
belijvolk: (has there ever been one?)
Avatar: somewhere in our discussion I told that noone can really be 100% who is a god and who isn't , because our universe is such and there can potentially always be a higher level of clarity. and therefore a higher intelect may not agree with my conclusions.
belijvolk: do you believe anyone who has the goal that would advance us ever reaches it fully?
Avatar: here we/I have a problem. because my definition requires that all desires must be fulfilled. If he has a only desire to advance us at a particular level and if he has no other desires that he has not fulfilled
Avatar: then yes
Avatar: (the desires also must meet the conditions of the betterment (sorry for use of that word, but I like it)
Avatar: even if webster doesn't agree with mee *sneers
belijvolk: it would seem that a correct step in advancement is the one made towards a larger goal.
belijvolk: the larger the goal, the more steps we can make, but the goal is never reached fully (concept of a limit).
Avatar: I think that you are right here. but that larger goal may not be known
belijvolk: einstein had it--- fullest clarity.
belijvolk: and his steps were made in right direction, and there were many.
Avatar: and only a being having a higher level of clarity can connect it to some higher goal
Avatar: maybe he did, I do not know
Avatar: (about that clarity)
belijvolk: so, the one who will advance us will never reach his goal fully.
belijvolk: the only goals that can be fully reached in their original consumption are simple ones, like finnishing the bottle.
Avatar: he would if his goal is some particular level of advancement
Avatar: for instance - hyperspace
belijvolk: he wouldnt reach it fully... human nature.
Avatar: yes, but then it would be another goal and another desire, no?
Avatar: a desire has to be particular not hypothetical (sp)
belijvolk: look, i want to step on mars. (suppose i have the scientific education necessary to make some further advances). how far will i get to actually doing it?
Avatar: still - if Alexander of Macedony had conquered all of the then known world and he wouldn't know in his life (let's imagine it) that there are not any other places to conquer, he would be a god to his people, but a being with a higher level of clarity knowing of another continent what Alexander isn't aware of knows that he is not a god by my definition, because Alexander's goal is to conquer all of the world
belijvolk: how hard was it for Alex to notice there is land further than his country's borders?!
Avatar: belijvolk - Alexander was only 32 when he had almost completed his goal (and killed). It's all dependent of you and how strong your desire is and your ability to make it real
Avatar: I said to imagine that
Avatar: of course he knew that he hadn't reached his goal
belijvolk: the further he went the more chances he had of being killed in combat. the world as he knew it would never be his fully.
belijvolk: besides, it is hard to hold what you conquer.
Avatar: he had a chance to be killed in the first battle also. I said in my little poem that life is dice
belijvolk: well, the conclusion that has to be reached is that there were no gods in our history (lets not admit a drunkard as one).
belijvolk: on that i shall leave you
belijvolk: you may go off and curse out socrates who told us to question everything
Avatar: yes. thank you for the discussion. it was very interesting
Avatar: bye
belijvolk: good day, sir.
* Avatar bows
p.s. belijvolk is whitewolf
belijvolk: what is a god?
Avatar: a being who's desires are not limited by dreams
belijvolk: so there are some whose desires are limited?
Avatar: no, I meant that the fulfillment of desires is virtual / in dreams, but they never become true. If all desires are fulfilled then you are a god. but a god can also be a tiny god only for himself. it is somewhat better that if others also would think so. someone's desire may be to get drubk every day. and if he does, he's no god in my oppinion
Avatar: desires which are thought to be impossible
belijvolk: so some desires are good, and some arent.... the ones that would be considered impossible to achieve are the good ones, as you say?
belijvolk: (by good, i mean working in the definition of god)
Avatar: no. I don't think that terms good/bad can be used. they are too relative and human made. a god should be universal. imho the desires which would make you a god must also help in the advancement of your species
belijvolk: so what would help our species advance, in your opinion?
Avatar: for example. a desire to be immortal, a desire to travel to the stars, a desire tocreate beautiful music which would inspire a generation of artists
Avatar: social, technical, spiritual ... there are many ways to imporve ourselves
Avatar: *technological
belijvolk: many have these ambitions.
belijvolk: few succeed in achieving them.
Avatar: but few fulfill them and that is what counts. the fulfillment of our dreams
belijvolk: is there anything more than pure desire that makes a god, then?
belijvolk: (speaking in terms of abilities)
Avatar: the ability to transform the desire to physical reality
Avatar: that's all
Avatar: a god must not be by definition all knowing if he doesn't desire that
Avatar: that goes for all powerful and eternal also
belijvolk: a drunkard transforms his desire into reality.
belijvolk: he does not contribute to society, for he is a drunkard.
belijvolk: and that may be good, since we do not need contributions of drunkards
Avatar: if his desires would be other than to get drunk then he wouldn't be a drunkard
Avatar: or he lacks the ability to be not a drunkard and then he is not a god also
belijvolk: his desire (to be drunk) helps us advance by keeping him quiet and away.
belijvolk: no?
Avatar: no - it doesn't help to advance. only to not slowen the pace. besides one drunkard doesn't affect all socienty - only a very limited population of people
belijvolk: how do you know that a specific inspiration will be a stride forward, not backwards
Avatar: I/we don't . but the results would show
belijvolk: so only time can tell that a god is a god?
Avatar: i.e. bringing the inspiration into physical reality
Avatar: I think that noone can. time is only a vector in our n-dimension universe
belijvolk: so a god will never be recognized, at least not in his lifetime?
Avatar: an interesting situation actually - being a god and not realising it
Avatar: why not - Albert Einstein was
belijvolk: Albert Einstein was jewish, no?
Avatar: he was
belijvolk: if so he didnt worship himself
Avatar: since when do you have to worship all gods? do you worship Shiva or Ra, or Thor?
Avatar: why worship at all
Avatar: but you can admire
Avatar: worshipping is putting yourself in a slave position
belijvolk: he didnt accept himself as a god. like i dont believe ra is a real deity.
belijvolk: so to be god you must also be free, not to be a slave?
Avatar: in a universe where noone can say who is a god and who isn't, that is not important
Avatar: a slave usually can not fulfill his desires
Avatar: because his freedom to act is limited
belijvolk: he is free to try to escape, no?
Avatar: yes. that is a desire he can fulfill
Avatar: and if that is fulfilled, he is not a slave anymore
belijvolk: he may have the potential to escape, but may not want to.
Avatar: if he being a slave can do something that is his desire and that desire becoming reality betters (imporves imho is not the right word) the world then he can be a god. at least imo :-\
Avatar: I can not think of a real world example though
belijvolk: slaves that built pyramids made a contribution.
Avatar: the slaves didn't - they were merely a tool to the mind that governed it
Avatar: architect in this case
belijvolk: if all egyptian slaves (or a sufficient portion of them) went free, there would be no one to build the monuments.
belijvolk: a pyramid is a rather simple architectural structure, since it is most stable.
Avatar: try to build it beforehand and then say it's simple it's very precise in it's simplicity and it also sits on the central axis of the world. forgot how the right name for it was
Avatar: and as for the slaves - the mastermind 's desire is to have someone to bild the pyramid
Avatar: in this case - the slaves
Avatar: Alexander of Macedony was very close to being a god. He wanted to conquer all of the known world, that was his desire. And he would have done it if not for his home-sick soldiers (he merely had left 2/3 of India) By conquering most of it, he brought civilization and culture into many crude and barbaric places and societies.
belijvolk: a pyramid is most stable structure. it is harder to erect a building via post and lintel with columns.
belijvolk: be careful with what you call barbaric,
Avatar: yes, I should
belijvolk: besides, there were many with that mania of conques. like napoleon.
belijvolk: rome.
Avatar: but nonthereless he brought higher culture
belijvolk: if you consider greek culture above indian culture
belijvolk: (western mindset... tsk-tsk-tsk)
Avatar: hmmm hes. western it is. but the majority of the lands were crude anyway
Avatar: and that particular conquest brought long term consequences which allowed the social evolution
Avatar: in this case - time did tell
belijvolk: however he did not achieve his goal fully
Avatar: about pyramid building. there is a saying. ingenious in it's simplicity
Avatar: no, he didn't
belijvolk: so by your definition he is not a god.
Avatar: and I noted that in the begining
Avatar: unfortunately no
belijvolk:
belijvolk: einstein was a god?
Avatar: see my quote [ Avatar: Alexander of Macedony was very close to being a god. ]
belijvolk: (pardon. *blush)
Avatar: one his desire has changed our world. to me he is
Avatar: but I don't worship him, only admire
Avatar: there wouldn't be possible satellite communications for instance if not for him
belijvolk: what was his goal?
Avatar: I'm not sure. but it must have been to have clarity
Avatar: in his desired subject
belijvolk: well, did he achieve clarity for himself?
belijvolk: did he achieve clarity for us?
Avatar: I'm not him therefore I don't know. as for us - yes - in particular areas. before him scientists had invented aether - a mistical substance in order to explain different happenings in the observed universe. Einstein clarified the situation and got rid of that mistical substance.
Avatar: never observed/never witnessed/never proved (as for the christian god) , but scientists thought that it must be (as religious folk think of their god today) because things behaved weird. Now they didn't behave weird - they behaved as they should
Avatar: because we had a better idea/clarity of what the universe is like
belijvolk: better idea, but not a full vision.
Avatar: yes. but advancement is a motion not a goal
Avatar: evolution for that instance also
belijvolk: so, if we dont have a full vision, neither did einstein.
Avatar: I see where you are going no, he didn't have a full vision on our universe
Avatar: but who says that there is only one universe. there can always be a fuller vision
Avatar: a potential fuller vision
belijvolk: so if he didnt have the full vision that he was searching for, he was not a god.
Avatar: no - just an idol then
Avatar: *laughs
Avatar: you destroyed my god!!! Avatar takes his barbaric war axe and points it at belijvolk
* Avatar laughs again
belijvolk: you give up the god easier than definition of him?
Avatar: yes. because a definition by definition is universal.
Avatar: if he is not a god, then I should not call him a such. I can still admire him for the higher level of clarity he brought though
Avatar: just as you did in my perception towards him and my definition
belijvolk: so who is god, then?
Avatar: a being who's desires are not limited by reality and he has the ability to transfor them into our physical universe and by doing so imporoving the state of the overall advancement of his species or any other species which is at the same level as his specie would be/is
Avatar: that is if he is the last living being of his specie left
belijvolk: is there a god impersonated?
belijvolk: (has there ever been one?)
Avatar: somewhere in our discussion I told that noone can really be 100% who is a god and who isn't , because our universe is such and there can potentially always be a higher level of clarity. and therefore a higher intelect may not agree with my conclusions.
belijvolk: do you believe anyone who has the goal that would advance us ever reaches it fully?
Avatar: here we/I have a problem. because my definition requires that all desires must be fulfilled. If he has a only desire to advance us at a particular level and if he has no other desires that he has not fulfilled
Avatar: then yes
Avatar: (the desires also must meet the conditions of the betterment (sorry for use of that word, but I like it)
Avatar: even if webster doesn't agree with mee *sneers
belijvolk: it would seem that a correct step in advancement is the one made towards a larger goal.
belijvolk: the larger the goal, the more steps we can make, but the goal is never reached fully (concept of a limit).
Avatar: I think that you are right here. but that larger goal may not be known
belijvolk: einstein had it--- fullest clarity.
belijvolk: and his steps were made in right direction, and there were many.
Avatar: and only a being having a higher level of clarity can connect it to some higher goal
Avatar: maybe he did, I do not know
Avatar: (about that clarity)
belijvolk: so, the one who will advance us will never reach his goal fully.
belijvolk: the only goals that can be fully reached in their original consumption are simple ones, like finnishing the bottle.
Avatar: he would if his goal is some particular level of advancement
Avatar: for instance - hyperspace
belijvolk: he wouldnt reach it fully... human nature.
Avatar: yes, but then it would be another goal and another desire, no?
Avatar: a desire has to be particular not hypothetical (sp)
belijvolk: look, i want to step on mars. (suppose i have the scientific education necessary to make some further advances). how far will i get to actually doing it?
Avatar: still - if Alexander of Macedony had conquered all of the then known world and he wouldn't know in his life (let's imagine it) that there are not any other places to conquer, he would be a god to his people, but a being with a higher level of clarity knowing of another continent what Alexander isn't aware of knows that he is not a god by my definition, because Alexander's goal is to conquer all of the world
belijvolk: how hard was it for Alex to notice there is land further than his country's borders?!
Avatar: belijvolk - Alexander was only 32 when he had almost completed his goal (and killed). It's all dependent of you and how strong your desire is and your ability to make it real
Avatar: I said to imagine that
Avatar: of course he knew that he hadn't reached his goal
belijvolk: the further he went the more chances he had of being killed in combat. the world as he knew it would never be his fully.
belijvolk: besides, it is hard to hold what you conquer.
Avatar: he had a chance to be killed in the first battle also. I said in my little poem that life is dice
belijvolk: well, the conclusion that has to be reached is that there were no gods in our history (lets not admit a drunkard as one).
belijvolk: on that i shall leave you
belijvolk: you may go off and curse out socrates who told us to question everything
Avatar: yes. thank you for the discussion. it was very interesting
Avatar: bye
belijvolk: good day, sir.
* Avatar bows