December 25th -- Birthday of the Sun!

[Medicine*Woman]

*************
M*W: Also known as the Winter Solstice, the day of the sun is reborn following the darkness of the season of winter.

The following is taken from a book by Franz Cumont, Astrology and Religion Among the Greeks and Romans (reprint; New York: Dover Publications, Inc., 1960), pp.89,90.

"A very general observance required that on the 25th of December the birth of the “new Sun” should be celebrated, when after the winter solstice the days began to lengthen and the “invincible” star [M*W: "sun"] triumphed again over darkness. It is certain that the date of this Natalis Invicti was selected by the [M*W: Roman Catholic] Church as the commemoration of the Nativity of Jesus, which was previously confused with the Epiphany. In appointing this day, universally marked by pious rejoicing, which were as far as possible retained,—for instance the old chariot-races were preserved,—the ecclesiastical authorities purified in some degree the customs which they could not abolish. This substitution, which took place at Rome probably between 354 and 360 [M*W: AD*], was adopted throughout the Empire, and that is why we still celebrate Christmas on the 25th of December.

The pre-eminence assigned to the dies Solis also certainly contributed to the general recognition of Sunday as a holiday. This is connected with a more important fact, namely, the adoption of the week by all European nations.

*Note that the date of the birth of the sun (Jesus) was not clarified until 354-360 AD nor was Jesus (the sun) deified until this date or even later!

 

[alexb123]

I think the Sun is worthy of an international birthday. Jesus on the other hand should be downgraded to a McDonald's Children's party

 

[Itseemstome]

The Winter Solstice is, of course, on the 21st. December. You know that and our ancestors were quite sufficiently expert at astronomy to know that too.

However, every 480 years, on 25th. December there is a conjunction of Venus and Mercury when both are almost at their brightest. It happens on other occasions but this is the brightest and, therefore, most noticeable. The ancients knew that too. It was expected to portend great events. Indeed some great events had their dates changed to fit in with the appearance.

Some sources give the year 1447bc for the passover, maybe to fit in or maybe true. It was called, then, the Divine Shekinah. Some sources give the year 967bc for the building of King Solomons Temple, maybe to fit in or maybe true. It happened in the year 7bc, ever heard of the Star of Bethlehem? You may also be interested to note that Mohammed saw the Divine Shakeenah before retiring to a cave to commune with God, although this was neither 473ad nor 953ad.

It seems to me that the 25th. of December might well be the Anniversary of 'The Divine Shekinah', ie a planetary conjunction rather than anything to do with the Winter Solstice. But then, as with all things, I may be wrong.

 

[Killjoy]

IIRC, the Romans monkeyed around with their calendar for some time before it settled into the lengths the months have today.

It may be that the solstice once took place on Dec. 25th because of the variations.

Interesting info about the conjunction of Venus and Mercury, though !
I was unaware of the phenomenon. Tantalizing coincidence that it occured in 7 BC...

 

[Warrior61]

Ok so say what you really want to say.

Thank you,
His son,
><>Warrior61<><

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Ok so say what you really want to say.

Thank you,
His son,
><>Warrior61<><

*************
M*W: Okay, I will then. There is no god. Read my lips. There is absolutely no dying demigod savior. Wake up, mein freund.

 

[Oniw17]

*************
M*W: Okay, I will then. There is no god. Read my lips. There is absolutely no dying demigod savior. Wake up, mein freund.

...from a distance it's hard to tell the difference. It's pointless.

 

[Sarkus]

From what I've read, most in those times knew that the Winter Solstice began the week of the 17th December - and led from there to the birth-day of many of the various Pagan and Vedic Sun-Gods - including Mithra - on 25th December.
The winter holiday (known in some places such as Rome as Saturnalia) was characterized by gift-giving, feasting, singing and downright debauchery, as the priests of Saturn carried wreaths of evergreen boughs in procession throughout the Roman temples.

As for Mithras himself - the stories about him include (although this is based on a brief web-search and nothing I would take as conclusive):
"Born on December 25, of a virgin. His birth was witnessed by shepherds and magicians [magi]. Mithra raised the dead and healed the sick and cast out demons. He returned to heaven at the spring equinox and before doing so had a last supper with his 12 disciples (representing the 12 signs of the zodiac), eating mizd, a piece of bread marked with a cross (an almost universal symbol of the sun)"

Mithra (or Mithras as he later became known for numerological reasons) was also known as "Deus Solis Invictus" - although other gods shared that title.

Also - 25th December was already a Jewish feast - Hannukah (as I understand) - and so they killed several birds with one stone when they put Christmas on the 25th December.

 

[Warrior61]

*************
M*W: Okay, I will then. There is no god. Read my lips. There is absolutely no dying demigod savior. Wake up, mein freund.

I would read your lips but I can't see them? Maybe they don't exist. I don't see them. So you have no lips. I am glad I got that straightened out. Anyway my point is I don't claim that Jesus was born then, in fact I don't see how He could have been born in December. It is just the selected month where we acknowledge his birth. I am aware of the celebration of the birth of the sun. Kind of see the symbolism. You pointed out it was a pagan holiday. So is Halloween where pagans celebrate spirits and the dead. We have, exactly the day after, what holiday? Seeing the conection?

Thank you,
His son,
><>Warrior61<><

 

[Medicine*Woman]

I would read your lips but I can't see them? Maybe they don't exist. I don't see them. So you have no lips. I am glad I got that straightened out. Anyway my point is I don't claim that Jesus was born then, in fact I don't see how He could have been born in December. It is just the selected month where we acknowledge his birth. I am aware of the celebration of the birth of the sun. Kind of see the symbolism. You pointed out it was a pagan holiday. So is Halloween where pagans celebrate spirits and the dead. We have, exactly the day after, what holiday? Seeing the conection?

Thank you,
His son,
><>Warrior61<><

*************
M*W: Hallowe'en is a catholic invention.

 

[Halcyon]

As for Mithras himself - the stories about him include (although this is based on a brief web-search and nothing I would take as conclusive):
"Born on December 25, of a virgin. His birth was witnessed by shepherds and magicians [magi]. Mithra raised the dead and healed the sick and cast out demons. He returned to heaven at the spring equinox and before doing so had a last supper with his 12 disciples (representing the 12 signs of the zodiac), eating mizd, a piece of bread marked with a cross (an almost universal symbol of the sun)"

Mithra (or Mithras as he later became known for numerological reasons) was also known as "Deus Solis Invictus" - although other gods shared that title.

Seriously? I challenge you to come up with any shred of historical evidence regarding the cult of Mithra to back anything you've said about it here. Not a word there has any factual bearing to anything in the body of knowledge surrounding the cult.

Here: Just about any argument on this can be settled by the debate in this thread: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=35978

 

[spidergoat]

Can we agree that worshipping the sun is just as silly as worshipping the Son?

 

[Saquist]

*************
M*W: Also known as the Winter Solstice, the day of the sun is reborn following the darkness of the season of winter.

The following is taken from a book by Franz Cumont, Astrology and Religion Among the Greeks and Romans (reprint; New York: Dover Publications, Inc., 1960), pp.89,90.

"A very general observance required that on the 25th of December the birth of the “new Sun” should be celebrated, when after the winter solstice the days began to lengthen and the “invincible” star [M*W: "sun"] triumphed again over darkness. It is certain that the date of this Natalis Invicti was selected by the [M*W: Roman Catholic] Church as the commemoration of the Nativity of Jesus, which was previously confused with the Epiphany. In appointing this day, universally marked by pious rejoicing, which were as far as possible retained,—for instance the old chariot-races were preserved,—the ecclesiastical authorities purified in some degree the customs which they could not abolish. This substitution, which took place at Rome probably between 354 and 360 [M*W: AD*], was adopted throughout the Empire, and that is why we still celebrate Christmas on the 25th of December.

The pre-eminence assigned to the dies Solis also certainly contributed to the general recognition of Sunday as a holiday. This is connected with a more important fact, namely, the adoption of the week by all European nations.

*Note that the date of the birth of the sun (Jesus) was not clarified until 354-360 AD nor was Jesus (the sun) deified until this date or even later!

One thing is sure. Only God or Jesus dictate Holy Days or Holidays. Jews didn't celebrate birth days because (some researches believe) it was viewed as a form of Idol worship. The two examples in the Bible of Birthdays are of non Israelites or gentiles and the both were not shining examples of the observance.

The bible doesn't tell us the day of which Jesus is born as significant as he was nor is the day of any of the line of David (to my knowledge admittedly)

Christmas is a pagan holiday celebrated by Christians. There is a ton of information that isolates December 25 as the celebration of the winter solstice. The Tree and reef and others are all emblemems with particular meaning. Since this Holiday is not instituted by God it is quite inherintly wrong for Christians to celebrate.

Jesus did dictate that we observe his death. It is the only Day he said to commemorate.

 

[SkinWalker]

One thing is sure. Only God or Jesus dictate Holy Days or Holidays.

If you are given to believe that these gods are real. Rational thought reveals that holidays, whether they be cult observances or simply cultural ones, are completely anthropogenic in origin. Man creates those dates of celebration and memoriam in order to preserve or perpetuate myths, legends, memories, or cultural norms which are necessary to preserve the overall integrity of cultural memes.

 

[Hapsburg]

*************
M*W: Also known as the Winter Solstice, the day of the sun is reborn following the darkness of the season of winter.

Exactly. The Winter Solstice is celebrated by most modern religions and societies. The primary influences upon Western festivities of the Winter Solstice are the Roman holidays of Dies Natalis Soli Invici and Saturnalia, and the Norse holiday Yul, which was hijacked by the RCC

Many current neopagan movements are attempting to reclaim these holidays, mainly by Norse reconstructionist pagans. However, even more prominent is Wicca's integration of the Yule festival into the liturgical calendar; Wicca being the largest neopagan tradition and a very eclectic one at that.

*************
M*W: Hallowe'en is a catholic invention.

Not exactly. Halloween is the result of Catholics hijacking the Celtic palaeopagan holiday of Samhain in the early dark ages.

 

[Photizo]

Christmas is a pagan holiday celebrated by Christians. There is a ton of information that isolates December 25 as the celebration of the winter solstice. The Tree and reef and others are all emblemems with particular meaning. Since this Holiday is not instituted by God it is quite inherintly wrong for Christians to celebrate.

Paul says in Colossians that Christ has reconciled all things...so, He redeems/transforms the pagan, and as a result redeems/transforms their holidays also.

Jesus did dictate that we observe his death. It is the only Day he said to commemorate.

Observing or not observing any particular day is a matter of individual choice for Christians: Romans 14: 4-6

 

[Hapsburg]

Jesus did dictate that we observe his death. It is the only Day he said to commemorate.

He said ya'll had to commemorate that, and that was the only one you had to celebrate. Guy didn't say it was the only one you had to celebrate.

See the difference?

 

[Photizo]

He said ya'll had to commemorate that, and that was the only one you had to celebrate. Guy didn't say it was the only one you had to celebrate.

See the difference?

What He ordained to be commemorated was an event
not a day...see the difference?

 

[broadandbeaver]

Jesus did dictate that we observe his death. It is the only Day he said to commemorate.

When did he say that?