Debating creationists

Aqueous Id

flat Earth skeptic
Valued Senior Member
creationism is an institutionalized form of ignorance, compounded by various forms of brainwashing instituted through religious rituals and woven into the fabric of western culture through political and social manipulation and upheaval.

The creationist tends to believe that the devil is manifest through science and that scientists are trolls in cahoots with hell.

These folks tend to do poorly in academic areas such as language and history. if the person does not understand the meaning of basic concepts in academics, such as metaphor and its origins in ancient literature, they will not likely be receptive to understanding much at all about the scientific process or the current state of scientific discovery.

this overwhelming deficit in some of the most fundamental skills associated with learning places this person outside of the circle which he perceives to consist exclusively of elite atheists who are all going to hell anyway and do not deserve his attention.

in compensation for this deficit creationism is reincarnated over several generations with some sort of gimmick to keep its followers blind and dumb. for example creation science
pretends to be science and this gives the followers a little plastic sword to carry with them out into the melee of public discourse.

well it's clobberin time as far as I'm concerned so yeah where are you fools anyway? I wanna hear some trash talk about hellfire and brimstone and how many ways charles darwin's hooves are cloven.
 
creationism is an institutionalized form of ignorance, compounded by various forms of brainwashing instituted through religious rituals and woven into the fabric of western culture through political and social manipulation and upheaval.
Back when the Religious Redneck Retard Revival was just beginning Mrs. Fraggle and I went to a debate sponsored by CSICOP between a real scientist and a so-called "creation scientist." The first thing that struck us was that the real scientist was not a particularly skillful communicator, especially with laymen. That hasn't changed much and I have often complained about it on SciForums. Fortunately others have too and scientific curricula have begun to take communication skills seriously. The first thing the leaders of this movement stress is that we need to reassure the religious folks that science does not require them to give up their faith. The Pope and the leaders of every respectable Christian denomination, as well as those of many other sects, accept evolution unremarkably as well as the common sense that the more outrageous sections of the Bible (and other holy texts) are metaphors. You younger people may very well live to see the mechanism of abiogenesis discovered, and perhaps even the natural origin of the universe, but that still does not mean that there can't be a god out "there" somewhere who made it all happen, perhaps the Cosmic Watchmaker.

Of course there will probably never be any extraordinary evidence to support this extraordinary assertion, but so long as it does not claim to falsify any scientific theories (as creationism does) it will not result in its proponents being kicked out of the Academy.

But back to the debate. To those of us who knew something about how science works, it was clear that the creationism advocate was being disingenuous. He knew very well that his argument was bullshit. He had sorted through the fossil record and presented only a carefully chosen group that appeared to support his thesis. For corroboration he trotted out several papers (perhaps undergraduate papers, those details were not stressed and I didn't feel like raising my hand at that point) from third-rate universities like Ambassador College. (Did Ambassador even offer graduate-level science courses? Wasn't their only doctoral program in Divinity--one of my favorite kinds of candy?)

This was on the West Side of Los Angeles (within UCLA's social orbit), where the average level of education is high and churches are not well attended, so most of the audience had come prepared to smother the guy in honest debate. When it turned out that he was simply lying, we didn't know what to say, since he would not engage in an honest debate and was a sufficiently smooth talker to turn it into a charade.

It was an astounding revelation. The people who spearheaded the creationist movement knew damn well that it was bullshit! They were just appealing to their core constituency, the people in the Bible Belt, plus their brand new constituency: the Baby Boomers who were just starting to regret the excesses of their youth and felt the need to repent by joining storefront fundamentalist churches. The Boomers always thought they were the first Americans to discover whatever they were into at the time, whether it was sex, drugs, pacifism, science, lascivious music, civil rights, socialism... or, now, Jesus.

Although they had the benefit of the post-war education boom, many of them were not really well educated and easily fell for a charismatic presentation of creationism.

I couldn't figure out what was to be gained by teaching these people something that the teachers knew to be false. But thirty years later, I now understand your point: they wanted to drive a wedge between a significant fraction of the American public and science. The tools of science (Occam's Razor, peer review, experimentation, the Rule of Laplace, etc.) are anathema to religion. The more people are discouraged from studying science and listening to scientist, the easier it is to indoctrinate them in religion.

And it's been working. More Americans consider themselves religious today than did thirty years ago, even though more people also admit to being atheists rather than "people who just don't belong to a church."
well it's clobberin time as far as I'm concerned so yeah where are you fools anyway? I wanna hear some trash talk about hellfire and brimstone and how many ways charles darwin's hooves are cloven.
This subforum has a special thread for evolution denialism and by now we've trained all the trolls to restrict their posts to that board. If they begin responding on this thread the Moderator will probably merge it with that one. We're serious about this. ;)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
creationism is an institutionalized form of ignorance, compounded by various forms of brainwashing instituted through religious rituals and woven into the fabric of western culture through political and social manipulation and upheaval.

The creationist tends to believe that the devil is manifest through science and that scientists are trolls in cahoots with hell.

These folks tend to do poorly in academic areas such as language and history. if the person does not understand the meaning of basic concepts in academics, such as metaphor and its origins in ancient literature, they will not likely be receptive to understanding much at all about the scientific process or the current state of scientific discovery.

this overwhelming deficit in some of the most fundamental skills associated with learning places this person outside of the circle which he perceives to consist exclusively of elite atheists who are all going to hell anyway and do not deserve his attention.

in compensation for this deficit creationism is reincarnated over several generations with some sort of gimmick to keep its followers blind and dumb. for example creation science
pretends to be science and this gives the followers a little plastic sword to carry with them out into the melee of public discourse.

well it's clobberin time as far as I'm concerned so yeah where are you fools anyway? I wanna hear some trash talk about hellfire and brimstone and how many ways charles darwin's hooves are cloven.

There are creationist smarter then you , there are all sorts peoples among us who believe in creation and in evolution . At the same there are smart asses like you who want show how sophisticated they are .
You as a smart ass can you tell me how life started step by step how the early chemicals reacted ,
Can you tell me how the cell initially formed , and please don't give me the BS of primordial soup, that was attempted in 1950 so far 60 years have passed we are steel in the square one .
 
Unfortunately, little plastic bits are often fashioned into shivs in prision and have killed many over the years.

Creationists - at least the leaders of the movement, like Hovind, Morris, Hamm and others - are often very skilled debaters and can manipulate a public debate. Many fewer evolutionary biologists are able to match their skill, and thus public debates often go badly. There are ways to learn how to debate them successfully.

Rich
 
There are creationist smarter then you , there are all sorts peoples among us who believe in creation and in evolution . At the same there are smart asses like you who want show how sophisticated they are .
You as a smart ass can you tell me how life started step by step how the early chemicals reacted ,
Can you tell me how the cell initially formed , and please don't give me the BS of primordial soup, that was attempted in 1950 so far 60 years have passed we are steel in the square one .

That's not really considered part of evolution studies, it's abiogenesis. And not knowing the process of abiogenesis doesn't help with the creationist argument in the least.
 
There are creationist smarter then you . . .

Of course. And there are heroin addicts smarter than you. Doesn't mean that a heroin habit is wise.

Can you tell me how the cell initially formed , and please don't give me the BS of primordial soup, that was attempted in 1950 so far 60 years have passed we are steel in the square one .

Oh, we've come very far since then. We have created basic RNA life (i.e. self replicating molecules) that could have formed in a primordial soup. We know how our cells got mitochondria, how they made the transition from RNA to DNA life, how nuclei formed.

Hanging on to ignorance - "we'll never figure it out; it's just too hard!" - has historically been a poor avenue.
 
Creationists shoot them selves in the foot.

http://www.conservapedia.com/Counterexamples_to_Evolution

This is a geniune article from a website that has a paranio about everything, from wikipedia being liberalist to atheists being stalins and hitlers incarnate [nevermind hitler was a christain].
It is one of those websites on creationism that makes u wonder whether u should laugh or cry or blow their f*cking brains out for being stupid.
Its endorsed as a leafding website on creationism and has a question evolution campaign too. WTF, maybe taking away their computers, electricity and appliances for one day and their bible for another one will make em understand what's more important.
 
I think I know whats going to happen to creationists. Their children will grow up believing the literal truth of a myth and will shun science. On the other hand, science, seeing how its developing rapidly now, will do so even faster until the misfit has disastrous consequences like inavailablity of useful jobs, hate from a society seeped in science and lower standards of life until they will have to stop denying reason and give up the creationist view. Either way, creationism is in its death troughs and after thousands of years, it reign has come to an end.
 
Religion has its own forum? This is Biology.

IMO, this discussion belongs here preciesly coz its an example of religion trying to impose itself on biology. I u think otherwise, whave one of the moderators move it to religion/ atlernative theories, I dont mind.
 
Debating creationists on the topic of evolution is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon - it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory.
 
Debating creationists on the topic of evolution is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon - it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory.
Good simile (not metaphor...looks over shoulder for Fraggle)
 
That's not really considered part of evolution studies, it's abiogenesis. And not knowing the process of abiogenesis doesn't help with the creationist argument in the least.
Moreover, not understanding that evolution and abiogenesis are two separate processes exposes them for the morons they are.
Good simile (not metaphor...looks over shoulder for Fraggle)
Ain't no Fraggles 'round here.
 
Debating creationists on the topic of evolution is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon - it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory.




Perhaps you are going to teach this pigeon not to knock over the oieces

I am willing hear your position on evolution ( living organisms ) to see how much different is from mine ?

Perhaps you are going to teach this pigeon not to knock over the oieces
 
Either way, creationism is in its death troughs and after thousands of years, it reign has come to an end.

Well, to be fair, there are a lot of different kinds of creationists, and some will likely survive for a long time.

Religious types often sneer at evolution, saying that such a philosophy is cold, godless, immoral etc. Scientists often sneer at creationists, thinking that anyone who believes that woman was literally created from a man's rib, and that a flood once covered the entire planet to a depth of 30,000 feet, is nuts.

But they are both seeing the extremes. There is a whole spectrum of opinions on this, and they exist in more than one dimension. The main axis of belief has to do with what part of the creation story is true. You could break them down like this:

Creation end
----------------
Flat earthers/Geocentrists
Young earth creationists (YEC's)
Old earth creationists (OEC's) (there are a lot of these!)
Theistic evolutionists
Physical evolutionists
Religious-atheist evolutionists
--------------------
Evolution end


1) Geocentrists

The flat earthers/geocentrists believe the Bible so literally that they believe the parts about the Earth being fixed and immovable; the sky is a vault above them below which all the stars and planets move. There are actually people out there like this, but they are pretty few in number, since the mental gymnastics required to believe that GPSes work on a fixed planet are pretty extreme. But these people do exist, and they have organizations. Which makes sense; there are people who believe so fervently in the exact wording of the Bible that they see their belief in the face of science as a badge of honor.

But most creationists are not like this.

2) YEC's

YEC's believe in a somewhat literal interpretation of the Bible. They believe that the earth is 6000 to 10,000 years old, that life was created in six 24-hour days, that death came as a result of Adam & Eve's fall in the garden, and that geology must be interpreted in terms of the Deluge. However, they accept a heliocentric solar system and a round earth. One variant on this is the Omphalos argument, dating back to the 1850's. This variant claims the earth was _created_ to look old but is really quite new.

YEC is probably the most popular form of creationism today, because it requires the least compromise in a strict interpretation of the Bible. You can keep 90% of the Bible, discarding only the most outlandish things (fixed earth) as metaphor.

3) OEC's

OEC's essentially mix a belief in creationism with an acceptance of a planet that is billions of years old. They do so by turning more of the bible into metaphor; each 'day' of creation was billions of years, for example. This results in some odd accomodations of science and religion, but it allows more flexibility. Not as much science must be discarded to reach an acceptable compromise of belief.

One variant of this is "day-age" where each day of creation is a long period, as mentioned above. Another variant is the gap theory, where millions (or billions) of years elapsed between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.

A third important variant of OEC's are progressive creationists, who accept much of conventional planetary formation, and even some evolution theories, but claim God created life at certain points. A common form of this is that God created life, and then some time much later, he took an ape and turned it into a man.

The latest in progressive creationism is intelligent design, where the history of the planet, including the development of life, proceeded as science has described it, but along the way God 'helped out.' This is then presented as a scientific theory by attempting to prove that no other explanation for life is possible. This has become immensely popular because it is seen as a way to "attack science with science."

4)Theistic evolution

This is quite similar to intelligent design, but is important in that it has been espoused by the Pope and taught at many Protestant seminaries. Basically God creates through evolution. It proceeds pretty much as science describes it, but God is guiding it. This is a fairly defensible position because it can effectively be 'redefined' as science learns more about the process of evolution; it can me made to not conflict with new science as long as there is some uncertainty (which will almost certainly always be the case.)

5)Physical evolution

These people believe that evolution is a physical process, guided by the principles first established by Darwin, but since greatly refined. They often believe in God as well, but feel that he does not generally meddle in simple physical processes. Any such meddling must be discovered and proven before it is taken seriously, as with any other scientific theory. Most scientists take a position similar to this one.

6)Religious-atheist evolution

This is a pseudo-religious position that states that not only is evolution not directed by God, the fact that evolution occurs is proof God does not exist. They feel that every new discovery of science (the heliocentric theory, paleontology, cosmology etc) is another nail in God's coffin. Few scientists actually believe this, although the 'battle' is often framed by creationists as a battle between themselves and religious-atheist evolutionists.



That's a pretty simplified one-dimensional span of beliefs in the creationism-evolution argument. Often, creationists feel anyone who does not believe in Genesis is by definition a religious-atheist evolutionist; just as often scientists feel that anyone who does not believe in evolution is a flat-earther. But that's a fallacy, and leads to a lot of people not listening to each other.



There are some orthogonal directions that also have to do with creationism/evolution:

A) Non-christian creation stories

The Islamic creation story is somewhat similar to the Genesis story; they claim Genesis is a corrupted version of the Koran's version. The Vedic story (Hindu) has humans existing for billions of years. American Indians have a great many creation stories. There are literally dozens of accounts of creation from cultures throughout the world; they tend to be similar along geographic lines (i.e. the Egyptian story is similar to the biblical one; the Norse one isn't so similar.) The plethora of creation stories can lead to problems when a creationist group succeeds in having "alternatives to evolution" taught as science. Which one to teach?

B) NOMA

This theory, which stands for "non-overlapping magisteria" is a term used to describe the beliefs of many scientists who believe strongly in God but also work on the science of evolution. Religion and science are two completely different fields, and thus one simply does not affect the other. Religious creation stories are works intended to teach the readers about the importance of worshipping God, his power etc and are not intended to be literal accounts of how the world was created. Likewise, proof that evolution follows strictly physical processes is not an attack on God since science does not describe religious belief, morals, behavior, definitions of sin etc.

C) Ignorance

This sounds bad, but it's really not. There are people out there who believe strongly in the biblical story of creationism AND the science behind planetary formation, evolution, plate tectonics etc. These beliefs can coexist because they have never really studied either one intensively. As an example, I once talked to someone who believed the earth (and man) was created in seven days billions of years ago. He thought this consistent with both biblical teachings and science. When I pointed out the fossil record of life, with man appearing fairly late in the game, he said "hmm, that doesn't sound right, I should check that." When I asked him if he really thought that man has been around for five billion years, living through the evolution and extinction of the dinosaurs, he said he had to check his Bible about that. He thought it mentioned that.

Rather than an indication of a lack of intelligence, I see this as someone with better things to do than study the Bible and evolutionary theory.

c) Incredulity

This argument, the argument from personal incredulity, is also somewhat orthogonal to the main line of creationism/evolution. Instead of claiming that God did X because of Y, they claim that "I cannot understand how the HOX gene could be the same in flies and man; therefore, it is not understandable because God works in mysterious ways. Hence the action of the hand of God is clear here." It's similar to the ignorance approach, but more formalized.

A final comment is that the above axes are not intended to attempt to define people's individual feelings on the role of creationism vs evolution - rather, they define how some groups (like the intelligent design group) define themselves. There is a continuum of belief along that axis and in many others (like the axis that goes from science and belief being tightly coupled to them not having anything to do with each other.)
 
Perhaps you are going to teach this pigeon not to knock over the oieces

I am willing hear your position on evolution ( living organisms ) to see how much different is from mine ?

Perhaps you are going to teach this pigeon not to knock over the oieces
The people here are only wanting to kick the "Young Earth Creationists" around. I can't imagine this thread lasting more than 5 minutes, for there is nothing to say after a while.
:)
 
the fact that evolution occurs is proof God does not exist
Thats not a stance I take. I do beilieve that every new discovery of modern science lowers the probablity of god. In fact, science has now reached far enough that we dont need religion for its explanatory tales.
 
Back
Top