Daryl Atkins now has IQ > 70, could now face execution.

Silas

asimovbot
Registered Senior Member
Daryl Atkins, saved from execution by the Supreme Court three years ago, has had his IQ retested, and it is now 74. The doctor who retested him says that the new reading should be discounted, but the prosecutors have used the new test as an excuse to put him up for re-trial, so that he can after all be executed.

Apparently the defense are claiming that Atkins is, too, still retarded.

These days, I do wonder what the point of the American Constitution is, at all. Execution was barred by the Supreme Court as violating the "cruel and unusual punishment" clause of the Constitution. This ruling was overturned by the Supreme Court in 1976. But again in 2002 the Supreme Court ruled that defendants who were significantly mentally impaired could not be executed, on the same basis.

So now a man is apparently bright enough to face a penalty he was not considered bright enough to face before. It strikes me that what the defence should be trying to establish (before they just burn the Bill of Rights and be done with it) is not that the guy still is retarded, but that re-trying him falls not only under "cruel and unusual punishment" under the 8th Amendment, but also under the Double Jeopardy rule - "nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb" - The Fifth Amendment. It does not state specifically that a person need have been found innocent the first time, neither does it specifically state that a person is undergoing a fact-establishing trial the second time - it simply states that no person shall be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb. And clearly Daryl Atkins is here being put in jeopardy of his life for a second time.

The saddest thing is that the prosecution lawyers are not just flagrantly violating the Bill of Rights, they are also sabotaging subtle ways in which the United States has recently been attempting not to stand alone amongst the democratic nations in the way it treats its capital criminals. Nobody else in the Western Alliance even commits anymore, as it is barbaric and abhorrent, but the United States not only continues to use capital punishment but until 2002 it executed the mentally ill and intellectually retarded (something we in Britain did not do right back to the Victorian era) and it joins only four other countries in the world that executes minors: Nigeria, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Iran. I think most Americans would rather that their record in this matter was not repeatedly highlighted by ambitious lawyers who are quite happy to piss all over the Constitution in order to kill someone.
 
A very sad state of affairs, but then that's just what criminal Justice in America is. How about this story I just read today (ironically just after I got back from a doctors appointment where Zoloft was prescribed to me to treat some serious anxiety problems I've been having):

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/02/07/cassel.pittman/index.html

Now, at 15 years old, Pittman is being tried as an adult for murder in Charleston, South Carolina.

The article deals mostly with the "zoloft defense", but basically what we've got here, is a child who has been committed to a mental institution in the past, put on mood altering drugs (against his will, being that he's a minor and as such can not consent to these things on his own), and when he was 12 he killed his grandparents, but he's being tried as a competent adult. How does that make the least bit of sense? Is this what Florida call's justice? What sort of world are we living in when this sort of thing is passable as justice?
 
This is an interesting debate. He is a dangerous man who killed innocent people for absolutely no reason (or hardly a legitimate one). Now, let's go over some facts about this case and observe some conections and logic.

His defense was that he was unable to understand what exactly happened because he is mentally handicapped. This is based upon I.Q. tests which could have been slanted in his favour (which in this case is lower). Now, is his I.Q. really low enough to tell that he doesn't know what he's doing? Let's read an exerpt from an article that discusses I.Q. trends:
The modern controversy surrounding intelligence and race focuses on the results of IQ studies conducted during the second half of the 20th century mainly in the United States and some other industrialized nations. In almost every testing situation where the tests were administered and evaluated correctly, a difference of approximately one standard deviation was observed in the US between the mean IQ score of blacks and whites. In the United States, the mean IQ score among blacks is approximately 85 and the mean IQ score among whites is approximately 100; the mean IQ score of Hispanics is usually reported to be between the mean black and white scores. The mean score for people of East Asian and Jewish descent is usually higher than the mean score of whites, but the extent of that difference is not precisely known. However, several studies place the median IQ of Ashkenazi Jews (who make up the overwhelming majority of American Jews) at approximately one standard deviation above the mean for other whites. In a normal distribution, only about 16% of the population is at least one standard deviation above the mean. Similar gaps are seen in other tests of cognitive ability or aptitude, including the SAT. Likewise, the gap is reflected by gaps in the academic, economic, and social factors correlated with IQ. The practical importance of intelligence makes the source and meaning of the IQ gap a pressing social concern.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence

I read this article a long time ago and bookmarked it for reference. It certainly comes into play here. Atkins is an African-American male. The average I.Q. for his race is 85. Now, this is taken from an average, so some people are lower and some are higher. His was reported to be 59 which is 26 points below the expected average for his race. To deny this fact would be denying the nature of one's existance. I'm not trying to cause controversy, I'm showing that he should be held accountable for his actions (in my opinion, feel free to argue it). If a white male did this crime and was 26 points below the average I.Q. for his race, it would be 74 which makes him intelligent enough to be executed. So, my point in this part is that out of the expectations of Atkin's genetic profile, he is not as retarded as one may think.

Now, my next point is about substance abuse. Here is a section of the case file:
On the night of August 16, 1996, Daryl Atkins and William Jones went to a convenience store to buy beer. Atkins was, at that time, in possession of a firearm that was concealed behind his belt.
http://www.internationaljusticeproject.org/retardationDatkins.cfm
It has been argued that excessive drinking can cause more brain damage than marijuana use. Atkins could have been born with a higher I.Q., but underage drinking could have stunted his cognitive abilities so he caused himself to be stupid. His background (not racial, but of his companions) suggests that he may have used other substances to make himself less intelligent.

The court had previously declared the execution of the mentally handicapped legal in 1989.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/...aryl+Atkins&svnum=100&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&sa=G
The court must have seen a need to do this. Some believe tht everyone under a certain I.Q. should be disposed of or prevented from breeding. I will not support or condone this opinion. Is the court's opinion any different? If someone kills another person for no reason, should they be killed? If a dog is sick and it attacks someone, should it be put down? Should dogs of a certain breed be benned due to their agressive nature? Should people? You draw your own conclusions.

I agree with his execution. He is a drain on society.
 
Closet Philosopher said:
I agree with his execution. He is a drain on society.

Easy, easy. Not everyone has the mental maturity to accept the necessity of capital punishment and step out of the equally retarded liberal mass crying out bloody murder. :cool:
 
The Supreme Court may have "seen a need" to impose capital punishment on the mentally handicapped but suffice it to say they were acting in direct contravention to all legal precedent in any other democratic country, and probably in the United States as well. It's a clear human rights abuse on a par with anything that happens in China or used to happen in Iraq, or further back under the juntas in South America. As is executing minors. Isolationism, national pride and questions of sovereignty are not sufficient reason for the United States to continue to engage in a practice which the entire rest of the civilised world finds abhorrent.

Personally I see no justification (or "necessity") for capital punishment at all, but that is not the issue. I'm willing to accept that America executes its murderers, that's fine. I am not concerned with what the guy did or if he escaped death by a legal technicality. The fact is that putting someone on trial for his life for a second time having cleared him from that punishment is obviously a cruel and unusual punishment - similar to cat-and-mouse laws which parts of the US Constitution were designed specifically to outlaw.

Closet Philosopher said:
I agree with his execution. He is a drain on society.
As a Death Row inmate he's about ten times as much of a drain on society than he would be if he was simply in prison for life.
 
Why are IQ tests used to determine whether this man is 'too retarded'? It's common knowledge that IQ tests are notorously unreliable at measuring intelligence.

The real question should be whether this man knows the difference between right and wrong. I don't see why an IQ test is required.
 
What are the IQ's of the thousands of animals (dogs, cougars, bears etc....) that are put down because of their attacks on humans?

Do ANY of the human animals deserve a better treatment?

I Think Not.
 
Mountainhare said:

Why are IQ tests used to determine whether this man is 'too retarded'? It's common knowledge that IQ tests are notorously unreliable at measuring intelligence.

Psych students used to be taught that IQ tests were developed to measure developmental delays (e.g. retardation), which is why they are inaccurate for measuring the high end of intelligence.

Strangely, that factoid is harder to find on Google than I would expect, so ... er ... yeah.

• • •​

BigD said:
What are the IQ's of the thousands of animals (dogs, cougars, bears etc....) that are put down because of their attacks on humans?

Do ANY of the human animals deserve a better treatment?

When a dog, cougar, or bear is capable of participating in the society, there will develop a push for their rights.

While I, personally, think we're too willing to kill animals when we're frightened, I don't see the comparison you've voiced. After all, people's dogs shit on my lawn, and if I treat them the same way I do a person who tries to pinch a loaf on my lawn, I'll go to jail for animal cruelty. Animals can be euthanized, but it's still a vociferous debate whether or not human should be allowed to not suffer. In some ways, animals get better treatment than humans.
 
Animals can be euthanized, but it's still a vociferous debate whether or not human should be allowed to not suffer. In some ways, animals get better treatment than humans
In relation to euthanasia, yes, they do receive better treatment.

Psych students used to be taught that IQ tests were developed to measure developmental delays (e.g. retardation), which is why they are inaccurate for measuring the high end of intelligence.
Using IQ to determine whether an individual can determine the difference between right and wrong appears to be fallicious, in my opinion. Let's say that an individual has an IQ of 175. Does he have a more 'developed' sense of right and wrong than an individual with an IQ of 110?

If so, shouldn't the individual with an IQ of 175 be given a harsher punishment?
 
I think the question of whether his IQ is now high enough for him to be legally executed is irrelevant; surely the only thing that should matter (if we are using IQ tests) is his IQ at the time of the crime. If I have no motive until after the murder has been committed, I'm not guilty. Why should there be any difference for IQ?
 
Somehow I missed this part of Closet Philospher's post that I responded to:
I read this article a long time ago and bookmarked it for reference. It certainly comes into play here. Atkins is an African-American male. The average I.Q. for his race is 85. Now, this is taken from an average, so some people are lower and some are higher. His was reported to be 59 which is 26 points below the expected average for his race. To deny this fact would be denying the nature of one's existance. I'm not trying to cause controversy, I'm showing that he should be held accountable for his actions (in my opinion, feel free to argue it). If a white male did this crime and was 26 points below the average I.Q. for his race, it would be 74 which makes him intelligent enough to be executed. So, my point in this part is that out of the expectations of Atkin's genetic profile, he is not as retarded as one may think.
We fought the Nazis in the 1930s and 40s, and many individuals struggled against apartheid both in South Africa and in the Southern states of America for one, overriding reason: Discrimination for any reason pertaining to race, gender or any other non-significant factor has no place in the laws governing a nation. Ordinarily I would have said that your suggestion would instantly be shot down as a violation of the Equal Protection clause of the Constitution (Amendment 14). But as this very case shows, it does not seem to be enough for legal arguments to be blatant Constitutional violations for them to never even see the light of day in the Courtroom, as I believe they should not.
 
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