Csicop or Psy-op or Psi-cop

Agitprop

Registered Senior Member
Interesting acronym. Is Csicop's agenda hidden in plain sight, in a name that lends itself so readily to multiple interpretations?

From Alternative Science:


CSICOP has formed what it calls the "Council for Media Integrity". This sounds like a worthy idea, and CSICOP claims its only aim is to provide a counter to what it regards as one-sided reporting -- again a reasonable idea. Until, that is, you learn what some CSICOP members actually do.

More insidiously, CSICOP members have also complained vociferously to the commercial companies who sponsor the programmes in question by buying advertising time. CSICOP members have threatened to organise boycotts of the products of such sponsor companies if they fail to agree not to sponsor such programmes again -- a powerful commercial threat that sounds alarmingly like intellectual blackmail.

http://www.alternativescience.com/csicop.htm
 
What a wonderful thread to start. As a member of CSICOP, it makes me proud.

CSICOP, of course, has a publication (which you can find at your local Barnes & Noble magazine rack) called Skeptical Inquirerhttp://www.csicop.org/si/, not to be confused with the other great journal of the Skeptic Society (a separate organization) called Skeptichttp://www.skeptic.com/ss-skeptic.html, published and edited by Michael Shermer.

But back to CSICOP: The Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal

Here are some links to some choice articles in Skeptical Inquirer and on the CSICOP site.

Out of Balance, by Chris Mooney - a critical review of the ABC Primetime special: Seeing is Believing.

Critical Thinking About Energy, - by Thomas R. Castan and Brennan Downes - The Case for Decentralized Generation of Electricity

Should We Teach the Controversy, by Jason Rosenhouse - a critical look at the desire by some to teach 'Intelligent Design' in our public schools.

The Columbia University 'Miracle' Study: Flawed and Fraud, by Bruce Flamm - regarding the much hyped study of the power of prayer that ended up scamming a major peer-reviewed journal.

Pranks, Frauds and Hoaxes from Around the World, by Robert Carroll - from the writer of the book, Don't Get Hoaxed.

Complete Index of available online articles.

About CSICOP

CSICOP encourages the critical investigation of paranormal and fringe-science claims from a responsible, scientific point of view and disseminates factual information about the results of such inquiries to the scientific community and the public. [click link above for more details]

Council for Media Integrity

An educational outreach and advocacy program of the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP) [click link above to see details and accomplishments]

Agitprop is very correct when she accuses CSICOP of being biased and 'one-sided' in its attempts to pressure media to monitor its sloppy presentations of "facts" and "data" in shows and news stories that portray pseudoscience and the paranormal as reality or established fact. It is CSICOP's position that the media takes advantage of the gullibility of the public in much the same manner as Miss Cleo -siphoning ratings the way she siphoned 900# minutes- and, therefore, CSICOP acts as an informed and skeptical voice of reason in holding the media accountable for this, but rewarding it when it does right.

CSICOP members are, and have been, distinguished:

Paul Kurtz, Chairman; professor emeritus of philosophy, State University of New York at Buffalo
James E. Alcock,* psychologist, York Univ., Toronto
Susan Blackmore, psychologist, Univ. of the West of England, Bristol
Richard Dawkins, zoologist, Oxford Univ.
Kenneth Feder, professor of anthropology, Central Connecticut State Univ
Philip J. Klass,* aerospace writer, engineer
Bill Nye, science educator and television host, Nye Labs
Neil deGrasse Tyson, astrophysicist and director, Hayden Planetarium, New York City
Eugenie Scott, physical anthropologist, executive director, National Center for Science Education
John Maddox, editor emeritus of Nature
John R. Cole, anthropologist, Dept of Anthropology, UMass-Amherst; Organismic and Evolutionary Biology, UMass
Carl Sagan, Astronomer, Cornell University, co-founding member of CSICOP, author.
Stephen J. Gould, co-founding member and fellow of CSICOP, author, Paleontologist, author, Harvard University.
Issac Asimov, author.

<img src="http://www.csicop.org/giftshop/decal/decal-icon.jpg">
 
Dennis Rawlins-co-founder of Csicop, describes his personal experiences with the largely discredited organisation.

"I used to believe it was simply a figment of the National Enquirer's weekly imagination that the Science Establishment would cover up evidence for the occult. But that was in the era B.C. -- Before the Committee. I refer to the "Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal" (CSICOP), of which I am a cofounder and on whose ruling Executive Council (generally called the Council) I served for some years."


http://cura.free.fr/xv/14starbb.html
 
invert_nexus said:
A very interesting read.
I'm eagerly awaiting a counter argument.

Good luck,

Oh, you'll get one. Right Skinwalker? :rolleyes:

But I can guarantee you it'll be to attack the source of this report, or some other Non-Csicop. You can take that to the bank!
 
First, let me recommend this link as a decent critical review of CSICOP: http://www.tricksterbook.com/ArticlesOnline/CSICOPoverview.htm

The article (Hansen, 1992) is, however, incomplete, but I think the majority of it is present minus the conclusions and bibliography.

Second, I'd like to add that I couldn't begin to comment on Rawlins' ancient article in Fate, since I obviously wasn't a participant in the matter. But I would point to other sources that are capable to do so, and have:

James Randihttp://www.randi.org/jr/041103.html
"The misrepresentation of the CSICOP involvement in the Gauquelin matter has been discussed numerous times before, and that accusation is quite false. CSICOP's only fault there lay with the reluctance of astronomer George Abell to consider Rawlins as a competent authority on the subject of astrology, and they — and Abell, personally — apologized for that fact, quite adequately. There was certainly nothing "fraudulent" nor "engineered" on the part of CSICOP. In any case, the entire Gauquelin matter has faded into obscurity with the other bits of pseudoscience, having failed attempts at replication."

Absolute Astronomy.Comhttp://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/M/Ma/Mars_effect.htm
"Zelen's (and Kurtz's and Abell's) rebuttal was poorly written. Read it a second, third, or fourth time, though, and you will see that the initial appearances are deceptive. Zelen split the sample not to examine the Mars effect, but primarily to examine the randomness of the subsample of 303 champions. And it turned out that the Gauquelins did not choose their subsample randomly."

http://www.freeinquiry.com/skeptic/resources/articles/klass-crybaby.htm ]Philip J. Klass[/url]
" Were it possible to turn back the clock, undoubtedly Kurtz, Zelen and Abell would try to be more precise in defining test objectives and protocol and would do so in writing. And more time would be spent in more carefully phrasing articles dealing with such tests. But all CSICOP Council members and Fellows have other full-time professions that seriously constrain time available for CSICOP efforts.

[...] FATE and McConnell have demonstrated the intrinsic flaw in the basic approach of those who promote claims of the paranormal -- THEIR EAGERNESS TO ACCEPT CLAIMS OF EXTRAORDINARY EVENTS WITHOUT RIGOROUS INVESTIGATION. Neither FATE nor McConnell contacted CSICOP officials to check out Rawlins' charges. This demonstrates why CSICOP is so sorely needed.


Richard Kammen
" "Crybaby" was written by Councilor Philip Klass. Although it offered to refute the cover-up charge, it ignored practically every specific point that Rawlins had made. Instead it offered blatant ad hominem attack on Rawlins' motives and personality, bolstered with rhetorical ploys--including crude mis-quotation.

Believing that a full understanding would still get this fiasco straightened out, I sent in a 28-page report called "Personal Assessment of the Mars Controversy." I came to three conclusions: (a) the scientific errors were gross, (b) Paul Kurtz was not guilty of a cover-up on grounds of lack of statistical understanding, (c) CSICOP was guilty of a cover-up by not taking Rawlins seriously, while "Crybaby" was a disgrace.


*************

So there's a few links of Rawlins-'Mars Effect' articles that give varied perspectives on the issue.

Personally, I've never been a big fan of Klass –though I have to agree with some of his points. I think he was a bit over-the-top in his ad hominem statements, but he had a point. I'd be willing to accept that CSICOP was a bit sloppy in their methodology, but I'd also argue that this was early in their existence and that they've learned from it. The work that CSICOP does is, today, top notch and their journal, The Skeptical Inquirer is well written and referenced.

The principles that CSICOP holds are worthy and meaningful and they serve the purpose of questioning the extraordinary claims of those that would attempt to pull the wool over the eyes of the unsuspecting public.

References:
AbsoluteAstronomy.com (2005). The Mars Effect. Found at http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/M/Ma/Mars_effect.htm

Hansen, George (1992). CSICOP and the Skeptics: An Overview The Journal of the American Society for Psychical Research, 86:1, pp. 19-63.

Kammen, Richard (1982). The True Disbelievers: Mars Effect Drives Skeptics to Irrationality Zetetic Scholar, issue 10, pp. 50-65.

Klass, Philip J. (1981). Crybaby. Non-published: submitted and refused by Fate magazine in 1981.

Randi, James (2003). More Attacks/Lies Launched, Megalogophobia, Einstein Wrong, Ephedrine Bombed, The Guardian & Science, Bogustry, More Fish, Remenance, 666=393, and "Dowser Brand" Water. Swift: the online newsletter for JREF, April 11, 2003.
 
Heheh. Well, I was previously totally unaware of this controversy. However, the first thing to note that the investigation Rawlins was criticising was more or less CSICOP's very first one. Well, they may or may not have cocked it up. Maybe. (Rawlins was too rambling for me to get to the details). From what I have read, at the very least CSICOP were evidently unversed in how the media would portray their efforts, and that attempts to "rectify misconceptions" were always doomed to failure. Thus, by the way, the completely justifiable activities of the Committee for Media Integrity.

I notice, however, that thirty years on, CSICOP are still here, do very much good work (just for example, those Skeptical Inquirer articles) and are still supported by many of the most signficiant figures in scientific and science educational circles.

Agitprop said:
More insidiously, CSICOP members have also complained vociferously to the commercial companies who sponsor the programmes in question by buying advertising time. CSICOP members have threatened to organise boycotts of the products of such sponsor companies if they fail to agree not to sponsor such programmes again -- a powerful commercial threat that sounds alarmingly like intellectual blackmail.
Would that the rationalist viewpoint really did form a "powerful commercial threat". I'd much rather have "intellectual blackmail" than "anti-intellectual blackmail" myself. Also, I'd note that it says that "members of CSICOP" are doing such-and-such. It can hardly be surprising that there are people within CSICOP who feel strongly enough about the dissemination of nonsense that they are willing to take action about it. That does not, however, mean that CSICOP itself sponsors those actions, though if they did I would not think it a particularly bad thing. Also, there is clearly nothing "insidious" than a civil protest campaign!
 
Silas, Humorous touch. Perfect blend of the disengenuous and arrogant with just a pinch of sarcasm. It's right out of the debunker's recipe book and just the right marinade for a scientifically retarded society. Should I try to cook your goose, in the same broth, you would be rendered speechless. (and postless) I'll refrain for now.
 
It's right out of the debunker's recipe book and just the right marinade for a scientifically retarded society.

And that is the classical response/excuse from a typical pseudoscientist, who rejects good science on the grounds it doesn't fit their fantasies.

Should I try to cook your goose, in the same broth, you would be rendered speechless.

Unfortunately, your bark is worse than your bite.
 
Seems to be her standard operating procedure. Start a discussion and refuse to answer any of the questions people bring up.
 
Not only does she not answer others questions, she cannot seem to answer her own. If she actually read articles from Csicop, she would notice that the author of 'Paradigm Police' is clearly lying to support his argument.

And of course, we're still waiting to hear her argument...
 
Hey! What about my rebuttal!? You obviously haven't been waiting for that!

:)

My answer to Agitprop is that I actually didn't debunk anything in my post at all! I won't however rehearse here my arguments as to what constitutes a "scientifically retarded society"!

That alternativescience.com (Richard Milton) is a mishmash of misdirection and misrepresentation, by the way. His attack on James Randi is almost hilarious.

The second ambiguity is in Clause 4, which says that "Tests will be designed in such a way that no "judging" procedure is required. Results will be self-evident to any observer, in accordance with the rules which will be agreed upon by all parties in advance of any formal testing procedure taking place."

This means, quite reasonably, that there will be no interminable arguments by 'experts' over statistical measurements. Either the spoon bends or it doesn't: either the claimant reads minds or he doesn't. The written rules, agreed up front, will decide.​
This seems clear enough.

But it also means that there will be no objective, independent judging or adjudication, by scientific criteria, carried out by qualified professional scientists. Randi alone will say whether the terms of the challenge have been met -- whether the metal was bent psychically, or the electronic instrument deflected by mental power, or the remote image was correctly reproduced. In the event that the claimant insists the written terms have been met, but Randi disagrees, then it will be Randi's decision that prevails.

Not only will Randi be the sole judge of whether the claimant is successful, but even if a claimant appeals on scientific grounds that he has met the agreed terms of the challenge, Randi will be the sole arbiter of any appeal as well. Randi says there will be "no judging". In reality, he is both judge and jury -- not only of the claimant's cause but of his own cause as well.​
This totally contradicts the first part!!

Milton doesn't appear to understand that the test is done under rigorous conditions which preclude all possible alternative, natural causes for the effect. These conditions are pre-agreed with the claimant. Presumably if someone says that with the power only of his mind he can turn the pages of a telephone directory, Randi makes sure the test takes place with the claimant wearing some sort of breathing mask to ensure that he is not simply blowing the pages over (as in one notorious 70s case, the name of the guy escapes me).

What Milton seems to fail to realise is that the result of the test being unambiguous means exactly that - either the spoon will bend or it will not. Either the book pages will turn or they will not. Either the image being watched by Randi or his co-worker will be picked up by the claimant and described in detail, or not. Randi does not then impose a determination as to whether the cause was mental power or otherwise, he will have designed the test to eliminate everything except mental power (including of course illusionism and trickery on the part of the claimant). The result is not that Randi has "judged" umpteen occurrences of bending spoons, moving objects and mind reading as being caused naturally rather than supernaturally - it is that these events did not take place at all during the preliminary tests! That is what Randi means by "unambiguous" - the expected result was never forthcoming and no interpretation was required.

About the only bit of integrity in the article is the fact that he links to James Randi's site where you will find an excellent explanation of the challenge.

Then he just gets too funny for words: he goes on to say "Find out what happened when a serious challenger applied to take Randi's "challenge" click here." Under the heading "Randi Runs Away" he tells the story of how one claimant was just rejected out of hand by the Randi Foundation. Did he actually have powers to move objects? Was he a genuine "remote viewer"? No.
In June 1999, a Mr Rico Kolodzey of Germany wrote to James Randi and challenged for the reputed $1 million prize. Mr Kolodzey is one of several thousand people who believe and claim that they can live on water alone, absorbing 'prana' or life energy from space around them.​
Randi's response was to send the guy a letter telling him he was an outright fraud. Milton responds
The claim is one that most people would treat with great skepticism, and might well run a mile from. But James Randi is not most people -- he is the person who has publicly claimed that he has $1 million on offer to all comers who challenge him and are willing to submit to rigorous testing, as Mr Kolodzey has offered to do.

It should not be very difficult to arrange a test of Mr Kolodzey's claim. All that is needed is to lock him in a police cell, under CCTV observation, with only water to drink. If he experiences significant measurable weight loss, or asks for food, then his claim is false. If, on the other hand, he does somehow survive on water alone, then Randi is wrong, conventional science is wrong, and Mr Kolodzey has won $1 million.​
I think it really is rather more than conventional science which quite conclusively shows that people who do not eat eventually perish. The part I find interesting (from a man evidently of some years and experience) is that he thinks that following such a challenge up will be "easy". I can't begin to imagine what kind of legalistic and ethical problems would be instantly thrown up by Randi locking a person up with no food - even with the participant's total agreement. After all, on the face of it a man who claims he can live without food is simply insane. So Randi is supposed to take a possibly insane man and lock him away with no food?

Milton thinks that "after a week or two" it would be obvious that the man was losing weight but a) that would not necessarily be an unambiguous test and b) without food the man is going to be in a weakened, ill state which may induce a fatal heart attack or stroke at any time. This is a risk too great to take.

The last piece of total disingenuousness from Richard Milton is that he totally fails to mention that one of Randi's rules now is that no challenge can risk being harmful to the health of the claimant - precisely because of "I don't have to eat" claimants. He says (as I quoted above): "he is the person who has publicly claimed that he has $1 million on offer to all comers who challenge him and are willing to submit to rigorous testing". Yes, indeed, you could say that if you were deliberately misleading your readers - no, Randi does not in fact challenge "all comers" (even if he says he does for publicity purposes, scarcely a major crime).

But really the thing that gets me is that Milton shows the "Randi letter" (the one in response to Kolodzey) as proof of Randi's lack of integrity, when it's such an obviously nonsensical claim!!
 
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Silas, I'll answer tomorrow. I'm tired right now. Busy day with the Coincidence Control Comittee, keeping an eye on synchronicity spurts.

BTW, sorry I was kind of insulting in my post to you.....Though it was rather "well done", don't you think? :)
 
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