Creation/Evolution controversy

martinhd28v01

Registered Member
Here's the deal. I'm a biology major and this is my last semester in college. To graduate I'm required to do a seminar on a controversial topic. I must complete my presentation without my audience being able to tell what my own opinion is on this subject. This will be difficult for me because I am a firm believer in evolution and am going to have a hard defending the creationists.

Having said that, the University I attend is a private Baptist school, so they will easily pick up on me trying to swing them on the side of evolution.

My question is, how do I defend the creationist side of the argument given that everything I know about biology debunks creationism.

Your opinions and reasons on this creationism/evolution controversy will be greatly appreciated.
 
Difficult trick if you can pull it off. My opinion is once you travel down the road of scientific knowledge and conclude evolution makes alot more sense then creationism then thre's no turning back.

You can not play chess with yourself and you can not present opposite sides of an opinion well knowing one side to be erroneous. Above all else one must be truthfull to one's sense of truth.

Your assignment to appear objective in presenting an erroneous theory is more like a task for a law student that is first given the task of defending someone and then after succesfully defending to switch tasks and prosecute the same defendent. I find such exercises a requirement for "liars" but not for scientists seeking the truth.

You should stand up for the truth as you see it and present your material in a scientific and objective manner. You are going to become a scientist, a truth seeker not some sort of dogmatic ideologue.
 
If you are not aware of www.talkorigins.org then you need to check that out as a priority. They do cover both sides of the issue as well as the fallacies of the creationist ideas. I believe this is the best resource on the web for such information.

You have my sympathies for having to suffer such a task.

Kat
 
Ha, yes, my sympathies as well...

Steps to think like a creationist:

1. Stop thinking.
2. Deny the existence of evidence.
3. If evidence persists, explain it away: "god did it"
4. Research only in places where the word, "Jesus" appears no less than 348 times in a 10 square foot area.

Ha, actually, talkorigins is really good, and also take a look at this:

15 answers to creationist nonsense

It has the things that creationists contend.

Tell them that all of this: http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/projects/human/#
is a hoax to propogate the religion of science.

Also contend that carbon-dating is flawed and completley wrong (I have no idea how to substantiate that, but it is a creationist argument).

Talk about how the Bible was written before the theory of evolution.

There is always that goddamn "evolution is only a theory" argument. They would probably eat that up. But, being a biology major, the professors might kill you for not knowing what a theory is... maybe.


But, the most important thing to remember: stop thinking. That is what they do.

Good luck, and come back to tell us how it went.
 
Ellimist said:
But, the most important thing to remember: stop thinking. That is what they do.

That and the immortal words of - Xtian propaganda cartoonist - Jack Chick;
"Evolution is the religion of scientists who LAUGH at God." :D

Barkhorn.
 
martinhd28v01 said:
Here's the deal. I'm a biology major and this is my last semester in college. To graduate I'm required to do a seminar on a controversial topic. I must complete my presentation without my audience being able to tell what my own opinion is on this subject. This will be difficult for me because I am a firm believer in evolution and am going to have a hard defending the creationists.

Having said that, the University I attend is a private Baptist school, so they will easily pick up on me trying to swing them on the side of evolution.

My question is, how do I defend the creationist side of the argument given that everything I know about biology debunks creationism.

Your opinions and reasons on this creationism/evolution controversy will be greatly appreciated.
It's a good thing that you give facts without leading them to believe in your personal opinion, the only thing you have to do is leave the way open. When you find that a argument might lead to a creationist way of thinking then don't try to close that argument, leave all paths open, those who are creationists will find the way of creationists, while those who believe in whatever will find whatever else you leave open that they can recognize based on their belief.

People have a filter that tries to sort away things that they aren't interested in, those who believe in God try to find the arguments that fit them and those who believe in evolution will find the arguments that fit them, (and those who believe that God created evolution will find what suits them) thus your only job is to keep the paths opened so that each one has something to identify with, thus preventing them from seeing your personal view of it.

That's what I would do, but it's not anything you can prepare consciously, you have to develop that kind of argumentation. You do that by being aware of what you say while you say it, thus you can steer what you say to represent what you are trying to do.
 
Ellimist said:
Ha, yes, my sympathies as well...

Steps to think like a creationist:

1. Stop thinking.
2. Deny the existence of evidence.
3. If evidence persists, explain it away: "god did it"
4. Research only in places where the word, "Jesus" appears no less than 348 times in a 10 square foot area.

Ha, actually, talkorigins is really good, and also take a look at this:

15 answers to creationist nonsense

It has the things that creationists contend.

Tell them that all of this: http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/projects/human/#
is a hoax to propogate the religion of science.

Also contend that carbon-dating is flawed and completley wrong (I have no idea how to substantiate that, but it is a creationist argument).

Talk about how the Bible was written before the theory of evolution.

There is always that goddamn "evolution is only a theory" argument. They would probably eat that up. But, being a biology major, the professors might kill you for not knowing what a theory is... maybe.


But, the most important thing to remember: stop thinking. That is what they do.

Good luck, and come back to tell us how it went.
Ellimist, do you really believe that what you say in this quote is true?

You don't think you are narrow-minded?

What are a creationist? There are only one kind, the human kind.

Evolution is only a theory, but that doesn't say it's wrong, evolution is right to a limit, beyond that limit we can't know, cause we don't have evidence and we don't have intelligence to find out. Why would that be such a problem for anyone to understand?

Do you really think people that believe in God stop thinking? It seems that way to you, but that's only because you wanted to find someone less intelligent than you, and you thought you found them, thus don't want to abandon that belief since you found comfort in it. Ahh there will allways be someone dumber than me...

Or do you feel frustration because they don't see what you see? They haven't realized what you have realized? They feel that way too you know...we all have people around us that just don't seem to get something that we get, but it may just as well be ourself that is lost.

The truth has been available to us at all times, it doesn't matter when the bible was written. People weren't dumber at that time - there were Einstein's even then, the only thing you see is how stupid you would be if you were to live at that time, people saw relations of things happening around them even then, there are so much that speaks the truth, just around the corner, do you really think it matters if the earth is round or not? Do you think it matters if we go around the sun or the sun goes around us? It doesn't, in the religious sense those knowledges have no advantage to us. The truth can be found everywhere, we doesn't have to know that the universe was created by a Big Bang, or that life was created by evolution, we still know that everything came from God.

Sometimes people use arguments that they thought was good for showing the truth, but they were mistaken, the truth is, there are no ground-breaking reason (at least not what we can explain) why we believe in God, we just know He exists. Whatever reason we have is lost in the explanation. Which means, we can say all the arguments, but we can't explain the feeling. The arguments are only the tip of the iceberg. Arguments because of attempts to show you the truth (which we actually have no way of showing) when it seems that there are no other way. The truth about God has to be found within oneself, we can give you every arguments that exists, but we can't give you the belief, we can give you the key, but you have to open the door.

At least let people believe what they want, everybody got their reasons. It's you that forces us to apply logic to feelings, to be able to explain them, allthough we allready know they are true from the beginning. Thus weakening the feelings since they are replaced by logic. What's intelligent for you doesn't need to be intelligent to God.

This post may sound weird to you...like blah blah blah, who can stand reading that shitty shit...

But then it is you who are a fool. Cause you haven't seen what I meant by it, do you really think I would write something while knowing that it's untrue? Don't you think that I have a reason for writing what I do? Why can't you find that reason? Is it that little voice inside you that tells you: "here's another one of these posts that try to seduce me into believing in something".

Remember that sad day that you found that Santa didn't exist, that magic was a illusion? That day when the world changed? Everybody have been through it, some of us took all the beliefs and ruled them as wrong, some of us understood that everything doesn't have to be false just because some of it were, and also some of us understood that God isn't santa, we believe in each thing by it's own, so if we find that santa don't exist, then God can exist despite that fact. Is that wrong?

Don't you have the understanding to find out for yourself if something is true or false?

I'm tired of these "He's wrong and he's right" kind of arguments, like as if we were the truth itself. I'm also tired of "He's right because he sounds right, and he's wrong because he sounds wrong" kind of arguments - also tired of these "He's wrong because he believe in God" etc.

That's all I had to say for now...
 
martinhd28v01 wrote
My question is, how do I defend the creationist side of the argument given that everything I know about biology debunks creationism.

Your opinions and reasons on this creationism/evolution controversy will be greatly appreciated.
Best thing to do, martinhd28v01, is to approach both points of view as a scientist (to be open-minded but also skeptical of the answers from both sides) and examine if their conclusions are based on facts. Ideally you should let the facts speak for themselves.

Since the resources from previous responses seem to be pro-evolutionist, it would be a good idea to see the resources from the creationist viewpoint. Some of these articles are written by scientists with triple-doctorate degrees.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/

Rebuttal to the “15 answers to Creationist nonsense”. http://www.icr.org/headlines/rennie.html
 
martinhd28v01 said:
Here's the deal. I'm a biology major and this is my last semester in college. To graduate I'm required to do a seminar on a controversial topic. I must complete my presentation without my audience being able to tell what my own opinion is on this subject. This will be difficult for me because I am a firm believer in evolution and am going to have a hard defending the creationists.

Having said that, the University I attend is a private Baptist school, so they will easily pick up on me trying to swing them on the side of evolution.

My question is, how do I defend the creationist side of the argument given that everything I know about biology debunks creationism.

Your opinions and reasons on this creationism/evolution controversy will be greatly appreciated.

OK - a serious response.

A. I believe that if you approach this project the right way, your opinions should have nothing to do w/ a slant toward evolution. Let the facts speak for themselves.

B. The facts will demonstrate that Evolutionary theory is is a scientific theory based on a firm factual foundation that has -well - evolved over the past 160 years. Evolutionary theory is accepted by 99.9% of scientists whose disciplines touch on it.

C. Creation "science", OTO , is a psuedoscience that already has the answer (God did it) and works back from there. CS violates the priciples of scientific investigation on a number of levels. And, unlike evolutionary theory, it ignores contradictions and does not evolve over time to encompass new information. How can it when the final answer is already known?

Finally, to the poster who stated "EVOLUTION is just a theory". Do you even know what a theory is? The National Academy of Sciences (NAS) states that a scientific theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses." It's not just an opnion. And, as stated before it is accepted by the VAST majority of scientist who study in the field.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion - but you're not entitled to your own set of facts!

Barkhorn.
 
I have heard suggestions that there is an intelligence involved in evolution, why has no on postulated that DNA acts like a brain?
 
Cyperium - Seriously: thank you for being rational.

You are one of the few theists that can maintain a coherent conversation. I really do thank you for that.

Now, please note that most of what I was saying was satire, making fun of common creationist arguments that are extremely flimsy, and would be amusing to present to an audience.

Talking about limits: the limits to which certain things haven't been explained yet?
This will apply to most of your post: just because evidence hasn't been found yet, or because there is no explanation for a certain phenomenon does not intrinsically mean there is a supernatural cause... this is called "God of the gaps". Putting in god or whatever for something that has yet to be found.

Evolution is not "only a theory". It is scientific fact, just like cell theory, and meteorology, and botany. All theories. Even cell theory is not complete. (Cell theory is the explanation of living cells and how they form organisms - grow, replicate, live...)
There is enough evidence for it to be considered fact.

Now, religion and supernatural ideas on the other hand...
"cause we don't have evidence and we don't have intelligence to find out"
Can easily be applied to anything religious. It is all a matter of blind faith and belief, and that is what it seems your post comes down to.

If you can understand it this way: I don't believe faith has any truth in it, but you do. I don't believe faith helps the understanding of the world, and science does.

God is faith... cannot use evidence or reasoning, because (in my opinion) those who made up the idea made it unfalsifiable. When something cannot be tested, we can never be sure of its reality, especially when the reasons to support its existence are crude. Theists believe they get a feeling and that feeling is God. I get no such feeling. I don't believe a supernatural entity, apparently of which there are thousands, according to religions around the world.

It merely does not make sense to me. I can test, see, sense, or fathom a supernatural being of absolute power, so I do not believe in such. If you understand it through the use of "belief" - my beliefs do not involve supernatural interference. It simply isn't there. And you will have to accept that that is the way of millions, and they won't change... much like theists won't change. As I said before, there isn't support either way - that is why the idea of hell was created - scare tactics.

Unfalsifiability doesn't fly. No absolute truth in it. Only un-based speculation and myth making.

No one knows the right answers. There is only opinion. My opinion is based on evidence and what I can verify. Your opinion is based on your faith and what you think you feel. (sorry for the bias - I couldn't right it without the 'think')
Not on this issue anyway. It will never be resolved, because they devised the idea of god that way: something for everyone. Completely interpretable, cannot prove, cannot disprove, cannot support, cannot deny. It is only a matter of choice.

By the way, I think both you and I spent too much time on this. It is too old of a conversation. And we should probably keep this out of these forums. You can private message me if you want.
 
I would say that there has been no proof of eather creation or evloition, creation (if so) you could that natral selection is not true because god can just stop it, or say that evloition did happen and it is jsut how you interpit the bible that says "seven days" what defines a day for god... idk lol
 
dagr8n8 said:
I would say that there has been no proof of eather creation or evloition, creation (if so) you could that natral selection is not true because god can just stop it, or say that evloition did happen and it is jsut how you interpit the bible that says "seven days" what defines a day for god... idk lol
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M*W: dagr8n8, you're still young, my friend, so if you see no proof of creation or evolution, I would say give it a while and, hopefully, you will see. The Bible was written allegorically not literally. Allegorically, we are still in the last day of creation, so humanity is not finished yet. In the meantime, since you're still in high school, I would advise you to make every attempt at learning to spell and/or type correctly. Otherwise, the point you are trying to make reflects on your ability to make it. We're definitely here, and we have definitely evolved. You need to spend more time on your languate arts skills and less time playing on the Internet.
 
dag,

Evolution is fact, it has occurred, there is no doubt, at least among the vast majority of scientists who have studied the issues. How it occurred is the subject of evolutionary theory. You should not confuse the fact of evolution and the theories.

The issue concerning the origin of life is another branch of science called abiogenesis and even though related to evolution it is quite seperate.

The evidence for evolution is collosal but there is as yet nothing to support creation. The two simply aren't comparable. It is only the narrow views of some religionists who blindly insist on their nonsense.

Kat
 
Well, I stopped reading the posts about half way down, but here's the thing. Creationism and evolution to not conflict. Creationism deals with how life began on earth, and evolution deals with how life changes and adapts in response to environmental stimuli. Abiogenesis is the competing theory of creationism. Not evolution.
 
Who is saying it has to be one or the other? IMHO it would have to be both. Everything comes from somewhere. Let's say "the source of all" created everything and nature/evolution did the rest.
 
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