"It takes courage to admit a mistake."
Courage not cowardice; balls not bluster
- Thread starter Xelor
- Start date
Gawdzilla Sama
Valued Senior Member
Sadly, what he did wasn't a mistake, it was a political diatribe that give nothing for historical accuracy.
...and others perhaps...
iceaura
You will note that according to the Japan Instrument of surrender, the surrender agreement of the Japanese to the Allies was unconditional.
It is also worth noting that the cultural, religious and societal environment in Japan at the time was such that the only way for the Japanese (generally) to comply with the surrender was to parade the Emperor ( God) through out Japan to prove that he was no God ( mere mortal & Human) and that unconditional surrender was the only option.
The cult that was driven by the ideology of "State Shinto" had to be dismantled and neutralized other wise most Japanese civilian or military would have most likely died fighting.
This cult type environment in Japan at the time can not be underestimated. IMO
It doesn't matter how much you might read into it and subsequently make the spurious claim that the surrender was conditional, the fact is that the surrender signed and agreed to by the Japanese command WAS and IS unconditional.
Note : the implementation of the Potsdam Declaration was only subject to the good faith of the Allies and not a condition per se.
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An interesting question that comes to the for is whether or not that unconditional surrender is still en-actable even today?
As it stands the Japanese are still a nation of people that UNCONDITIONALLY surrendered to the Allies. ( as are the German's though considerably more complicated due to Russian requirements, if I am not mistaken.)
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as matter of interest ( Aside)
the first surrender document ( Germany, Allies, Soviets )
this being disputed by the Soviets as invalid due to the lack of authorization by or of the Soviet representative. ( apparently)
the first surrender document ( Germany, Allies, Soviets )
this being disputed by the Soviets as invalid due to the lack of authorization by or of the Soviet representative. ( apparently)
It was in fact - explicitly, during preliminary negotiations - conditional on the existing Emperor remaining head of State, without being subjected to trial or prosecution or removal from official duties. The Japanese signed it on that promise, which was kept. You can read that in the later four or five paragraphs of the surrender document: the US requires the Imperial Government of Japan - the existing Emperor and his government, the same as prosecuted the War, which remain in office - to issue certain commands and so forth: contrast that with the surrender of Germany in WWII, or Iraq in 2003, or the like.
And, side point, that was thought to be for the best anyway - as diminishing the threat of suicidal resistance and guerrilla warfare throughout the realm, among other benefits. So despite being a primary sticking point earlier, when even a semblance of negotiations was being rejected by the US on that pivotal issue, it was something the US was planning to do all along. Unconditional surrender was never the sticking point, and negotiated surrender had always been possible - on very severe terms, mind, but terms all the same.
The Bomb was never used to attempt to negotiate severe terms. It was kept secret, for months, while the deployment of the plutonium design was prepared.
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Are you suggesting that the term "unconditional" is not unconditional and is in fact conditional?
Do you know the difference between conditions and terms?
Gawdzilla Sama
Valued Senior Member
This is the stupid shit you keep repeating without providing sources. It's not right, it's not even wrong.
I am pointing out that one of the central, insisted, sticking point conditions the Japanese wanted, and the US knew was central for them - a condition for surrender, a well known obstacle to US acceptance of surrender - was in fact included in the surrender terms; carefully and rhetorically buried in the paragraphs of operational details, but perfectly obvious in physical reality. The Emperor stayed as head of State. That was a big deal at the time. There is no way that was simply an oversight. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrender_of_Japan
It is completely accurate. The Bomb was kept secret for months after the US had developed it, and knew it would work. It was kept secret for weeks after manufacture of the Hiroshima Bomb had been essentially completed, with only minor assembly left before drop. Its existence was never used as negotiating leverage in that time. These are simple facts, from any history book, from Wiki, from anywhere.
Which brings up the peculiarity, the strangeness, of the American denial of that set of circumstances. The Japanese were well known to be adamantly opposed to surrender - the more time available for them to adjust to the idea, the better, then. And they were well supplied with expertise - physicists who could lay out the situation they faced, if provided with information from the US. The US had cracked their codes, destroyed their military and its supply chain, got themselves within bomb range of the entire country - the US had nothing to fear, nothing to lose by using the Bomb's existence in negotiations.
And so what we see now is denial, which creates weakness, etc. The net result is endemic cowardice, built in disabling fear - as we saw in the wake of 9/11. This helps explain some aspects of gun culture in America, imho.
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Gawdzilla Sama
Valued Senior Member
"These are simple facts, from any history book, from Wiki, from anywhere." Show me.
Regardless the Emperor was subordinate to the Allies. He surrendered unconditionally to the Allies. The terms of the surrender were for him to remain under the subordination of the allies. This has obvious benefits to the allies.
The point is that the surrender was unconditional.
The total destruction of Tokyo was only one or two bombs away....
How you can claim that the surrender was conditional upon the emperor remaining in office is quite bewildering....
Even of we take your claims as credible you will need to explain this rather convoluted approach to current gun culture a bit more thoroughly.
It makes no sense as it stands... IMO
What denial?
and how does this relate to weakness and gun culture?
"It takes courage to live with out a gun under your bed..."
The Wiki link in the post you quoted will do.
There are also links in posts 132 and 180 your one-line trollposting failed to register.
Here's another - still Wiki-level, all that is necessary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Boy
The Hiroshima bomb was a side project, not the main focus, because it was guaranteed but small and not the future. In other words, by July of 1944 the Bomb was a sure thing.
Gawdzilla Sama
Valued Senior Member
LOL, you have no idea what's going on. You do realize that the Manhattan Project was kept secret from everybody who didn't have a need to know, including Harry S. Truman, or don't you? Why would we tell the Japanese at all?
That was the main condition, the central and most important condition, held to be essential by the Japanese in previous meetings and also in the exchanges among them as monitored by the broken code. Do you think it was coincidence that it was allowed for at Potsdam, and then included in the official surrender document?
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Joke? Seriously - you posted that?
To not burn schoolchildren alive by the thousands.
To avoid bombing hospitals and killing the doctors and nurses in them.
To give the Japanese leadership time to adjust to surrender, avoid some of the risk of revolt.
To possibly - maybe - there was a chance - shorten the fucking war.
To demonstrate moral courage on the eve of ascending to the leadership of the free world.
Gawdzilla Sama
Valued Senior Member
Yeah, you're ignorant. I suggest you read Japan's Longest Day.
Irrelevant. It was a US decision, and the weakening of the denial is a weakening of the US.
I suggest you find something relevant to post at least once per page of thread. (You owe about five relevancies here) Trolling is - among its other flaws - boring.
Gawdzilla Sama
Valued Senior Member
Oh, child, I owe you nothing. And yes, you are boring. You will remain ignorant, and that's so very boring.
Not me - the thread.
You haven't been paying attention for some time now.
That's a symptom, btw. Consider the denial involved in avoiding the entire topic - the effects of the denial of the decision to conceal the existence of the Bomb while preparing to drop it by surprise, the only relevance of any of this to the thread - by repeated trolling and insult.
Now it's a reference to a book about the Japanese side of the decision to surrender, featuring 1) Japanese culture and so forth 2) after the US decision that is the relevant one here, and ignorant of it, all wrapped in a 3) presumption of ignorance.
So my claim of significant effects is gaining weight. The panic or cowardice aspect of US gun culture does seem to plausibly root - to some undermined but visible extent - in denial of aspects of its history other than racial oppression.
Gawdzilla Sama
Valued Senior Member
You know jack shit about this topic.