Could you pass off as a homo sapiens

orcot

Valued Senior Member
This is mostly directed to white people but assuming that you would be transported 30 000 years back in time in ice age Europe at a time when there where both neanderthals and humans do you think you could pass of as a homo sapiens if you consider that the gene mutation that causes pale skin is only 8000 years old (All homo sapiens at the time would be considerd black).

Also would there be other obvious differences like height?
 
"Cro magnon" is a modern human, Homo sapiens sapiens.

Well, it's not completely known the timing of evolution of things like skin color (or even more fundamental aspects such as the split from chimpanzees), and it isn't preserved on fossils. What scientists have are quite a bunch of assumptions, some more well accepted than others. If I recall, Cavalli-Sforza thinks it's possible that some populations evolved gradually fairer skin even as they reached North Africa (I don't remember the reasoning though). And while it's logical that having first evolved in Africa, the ancestral humans would have dark skin, it's not so clear that they'd be "considered black". There is a considerable variation in pigmentation even within Africa (native variation, not from Eurasian admixture) , and not all darkness correlates with sun exposure, which is the main theory of a selective pressure (and probably right, but not the entire answer). For example, the Khoi-san are rather light skinned compared with other Africans, and pygmies and other Africans that have inhabited forests, protected from UV rays, are even darker than those who inhabited more open areas. I've read once something vague about the possibility that some allele for darker skin may even have entered Africa from India or something.

That's only to say that there's the possibility that perhaps an European Homo sapiens at that time wouldn't be so much darker than some present-day Europeans, like some considerably tanned southern Europeans.

If they were, however, or, if you just took some present-day European that was fair-skinned enough to be too different to the caveman's eyes, well, I think the odds would be that the modern European wouldn't pass as an "Homo sapiens". But it's hard to know for sure, perhaps they wouldn't be as "racist". If we consider that there's the possibility that Eurasians and Neanderthals have admixed, and they would be even more different (with Neanderthals possibly being fair skinned), then if this admixture occurred in terms of people friendly intermingling as a single people, present-day Europeans/present-day anyone else probably wouldn't have been seen as too radically different to not be accepted.

But there is also the problem of culture, perhaps different tribes have/had different standards. It would be interesting to have contact with isolated African and American aboriginal tribes and try to find out how they see the phenotypes of European or fair-skinned Asians, and Africans for Americans and vice-versa.



And yeah, they were quite tall. But if the skin color were like a present-day dark black/fair white difference, that would probably have made more difference than height, I guess.
 
Pre-what adaptive deviation?

"Early" modern refers more to chronology than actual difference. The "lines" are already blurry/arbitrary between different human species, and much more within species.
 
I've always tried to pass myself off as a Homo sapiens, but I don't think that I've ever really fooled anyone. (Certainly not the girls in high school.)
 
My impression is that the stereotypical human "races", Caucasian, Oriental and Negro, are all fairly late arrivals on the human scene. All of them seem to have appeared and developed their more atypical characteristics long after anatomically modern humans left Africa and spread into remote regions with different climates, so remote from each other that they weren't exchanging lots of genes back and forth.

What did the ancestral population look like? My speculation is that we still see people resembling them all over. The generic sort of human might have looked like many people in the Mediterranean and Middle East, or like many Mexicans in the Western hemisphere, look today. Light brown or olive skin, black hair, often relatively short stature. We still see variants on that theme from the Mediterranean across southern Asia to Southeast Asia, where they mix with a northern Asiatic type that seems to be more cold-adapted. People with similar characteristics are widespread among American Indians too. We even see hints of these characteristics in the African Bushmen and Khoisan who might be remnants of an older population in that continent.
 
"Cro-Magnon" is a modern human, Homo sapiens sapiens.
"Cro-Magnon," while out of favor with anthropologists, is the name still used by laymen for the first population of modern humans to migrate into Europe. This is the Occitan name (a Romance language sort of halfway between French and Italian) of the site where their remains were first discovered, meaning simply "Big Cave."

H. sapiens speciated more-or-less 200KYA, but remained in Africa until around 60KYA, when a drought caused by an ice age encouraged a party of explorers to cross into Asia looking for better feeding prospects. They eventually found it in Australia. A second party made the same excursion 10,000 years later, but the weather had improved and they made a new home in southwestern Asia. These are the people whose descendants are the ancestors of all living humans except Africans and Native Australians.

That includes the exploring party that found its way into Europe around 35KYA and displaced the Neanderthals: the Cro-Magnon. Current research indicates that they didn't kill them off, merely out-competed them with physiology more suited to the warming climate. Modern Europeans have significant traces of Neanderthal DNA.

The Cro-Magnon were strictly a Paleolithic ("Early Stone Age") people: nomadic hunter-gatherers who never invented agriculture and therefore never established permanent villages with cultivated crops and herded animals.

The Cro-Magon, in turn, were displaced by the Indo-Europeans, a second migration from Asia around 3000BCE. The Indo-Europeans had already developed agriculture or learned it from their neighbors, so with this technological advantage they quickly took over the entire European continent. The only community in Europe that is clearly not Indo-European and whose ancestry can't be determined (we know where the Finns, Huns, Magyars, Jews and Turks came from) are the Basque people of the Pyrenees. They may be the last Cro-Magnons. I don't think we've found any viable Cro-Magnon DNA to compare it to.

Well, it's not completely known the timing of evolution of things like skin color . . . .
Nonetheless we have plenty of evidence of it changing fairly rapidly in response to change in sunlight exposure. The dark-skinned people of southwestern India and the light-skinned people of Lithuania are all descended from the Eastern branch of the Indo-European people, and are separated only by three or four thousand years of migration in opposite directions. So when we're talking about H. sapiens wandering around Eurasia for fifty thousand years (and the Americas for ten or fifteen thousand), skin color begins to seem like a rather ephemeral trait.

. . . . or even more fundamental aspects such as the split from chimpanzees. . . .
Just in the past few years we've discovered the remains of Ardipithecus, a true "missing link" who was clearly bipedal yet retained an opposable big toe for easily scampering back up into the trees to escape predators. Ardi, the ancestor of all hominine genera and species, is seven million years old. She also resolved the burning question of where our first human-like ancestors lived: Ardi lived in the forest, not on the savannah.

. . . . perhaps they wouldn't be as "racist".
Most primates practice incest as a matter of course, to the extent that two gorilla skulls collected 500 miles apart look like they're from different species. But humans have a very strong instinctive attraction to people who look much different from themselves. Racism is a cultural overlay; we're not wired that way.

Anthropologists in earlier eras, who were able to study pre-modern tribes who had not yet been "contaminated" by commercial, religious and military contact with Europeans, found that they typically organized summer festivals. When food was abundant so there was no need for animosity, many different tribes got together to trade recipes, hunting strategies, herbs, stories... and children! This constant mixing of the gene pool was surely a survival advantage.

How many of us who are reading this thread give a second glance to a person of the opposite sex who has a different skin color or some other clear identifier of being "foreign," when we might have absentmindedly just walked right past five gorgeous people of our own genotype?

Even in the Old South, where people of African ancestry were officially called "inferior," the planters were always sneaking out into the slave quarters at night, and children of mixed-ancestry were a "dirty little secret" that they quietly sent off to schools in Europe where they didn't draw so much attention. Read up on the Westermarck Effect for an astounding study of just how averse our species is to inbreeding. It was discovered in certain types of Israeli kibbutzes where all the children are raised communally on weekdays and only see their parents on weekends. Even though they know that they're not related to each other, kibbutz-mates very seldom marry as adults. It's an instinct that kicks in.

But there is also the problem of culture, perhaps different tribes have/had different standards. It would be interesting to have contact with isolated African and American aboriginal tribes and try to find out how they see the phenotypes of European or fair-skinned Asians, and Africans for Americans and vice-versa.
Unfortunately we're a little late for that. There are very few people on earth today who have not seen lots of foreigners.
 
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