Convince me that I should think like you?

M

moonman

Registered Senior Member
This goes to anyone and everyone, why do you deem that I should think just like you?
Atheists- Why don't you want me to believe?
Theists- Why should I follow your ways?
*Agnostics- Bravo**

This is not so much for myself, the purpouse is to make YOU think why. Because I don't believe in the view that everyone should think in the same way, ok this is an incredibly blunt statement on the nature of these views but the basic ground for them is either yes or no to God/Spirituality and the fact that all should believe one or the other exclusively.
What right I have to pose this question is ofcourse always disputable- everything is. But just answere it for the sake of the thread and the sake of common understanding.

*disregard this as a part of this arguement, this is meant as a sublime device to cause a subcontious bias favouring agnosticism.
 
Originally posted by moonman
Atheists- Why don't you want me to believe?
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See, this is how alot of the religious types think, they think atheists are AGAINST religion and are devilishly trying to "tempt" them into "not believeing". Of course this is absurd, what could they possibly have to gain from that?
The truth is, all the atheists want is for the relgious types to STOP ignoring the facts, you can't argue FOR creationism because its ridiculous and an archaic way of thinking, to do this you need to purposely ignore all logical indications so obviously this is going to irritate someone who bases their beliefs on logic and facts.
 
When was the last time you ever heard of an atheist missionary trying to recruit you for their "religion"?
 
Re: Re: Convince me that I should think like you?

Originally posted by Dr Lou Natic
See, this is how alot of the religious types think, they think atheists are AGAINST religion and are devilishly trying to "tempt" them into "not believeing". Of course this is absurd, what could they possibly have to gain from that?
The truth is, all the atheists want is for the relgious types to STOP ignoring the facts, you can't argue FOR creationism because its ridiculous and an archaic way of thinking, to do this you need to purposely ignore all logical indications so obviously this is going to irritate someone who bases their beliefs on logic and facts.
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theists arent the only ones who ignore the facts

an example: in 1959 stereo photos where taken by a Turkish airline pilot of a boat shaped object on the mountains of Ararat for The Geodetic Institute of Turkey. An American team ran a day and a half expedition to the site, hardly enough time to carry out any scientific testing. They blew a hole in the side of the structure with dynamite, although some timber shaped stones were revealed, their conclusion was, "Nothing of any archaeological interest". They now believe this structure to be the remains of Noah's Ark, tho some athiests still dismiss it as wishful thinking.

People in general, not just theists, tend to ignore facts that dont fit with their world views.

also, in recent years there have been archaeological discoveries that have led some scientists/archaeologists to believe that we have seriously underestimated the intellect of the ancient people....it may be that they had the same brain capasity as we do. therefore there is some evidence that creationism may have some merit and evolution has less than before.

check out Ron Wyatt for more archaeological finds
 
Originally posted by moonman
*disregard this as a part of this arguement, this is meant as a sublime device to cause a subcontious bias favouring agnosticism.
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Agnostic concerning what? God(s)? Are you equally agnostic with regards to the Faerie Kingdom?
 
Re: Re: Re: Convince me that I should think like you?

Originally posted by New Life
theists arent the only ones who ignore the facts

an example: in 1959 stereo photos where taken by a Turkish airline pilot of a boat shaped object on the mountains of Ararat for The Geodetic Institute of Turkey. An American team ran a day and a half expedition to the site, hardly enough time to carry out any scientific testing. They blew a hole in the side of the structure with dynamite, although some timber shaped stones were revealed, their conclusion was, "Nothing of any archaeological interest". They now believe this structure to be the remains of Noah's Ark, tho some athiests still dismiss it as wishful thinking.
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What makes you think the wooden ship can be fossilized on the surface of earth? Unless you suggest that Noah had used timber shaped stones to build the Ark.
 
When was the last time you ever heard of an atheist missionary trying to recruit you for their "religion"?
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As I said, it was an extremely blunt statement on my part not intended as a full description of the belief.
There are however those Atheists who believe that all religion should be abolished and that time wasted on prayer should be used for acchieving humanistic goals.

I'm talking to the extremes of the beliefs. I'm a big fan of everyone getting along.:D But sciforums would be quite a boring place if everyone agreed.

Agnostic concerning what? God(s)? Are you equally agnostic with regards to the Faerie Kingdom?
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By definition the term agnostic refers solely to the issue of God and creationism etc.., other issues are subject to separate terming.
But I get your question, show me the Faerie Kingdom and I won't believe my eyes but I will not be able to doubt it's existance either.
 
A rose by any other name ...

Originally posted by moonman
By definition the term agnostic refers solely to the issue of God and creationism etc.., other issues are subject to separate terming.
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Once again moonman passes up an excellent opportunity to stay silent. :D

According to Huxley, the person who coined the term ...

Agnosticism is not a creed but a method, the essence of which lies in the vigorous application of a single principle ...Positively the principle may be expressed as in matters of intellect, do not pretend conclusions are certain that are not demonstrated or demonstrable.

- see Agnosticism FAQ
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And ...

further say that Agnosticism is not properly described as a "negative" creed, nor indeed as a creed of any kind, except in so far as it expresses absolute faith in the validity of a principle, which is as much ethical as intellectual. This principle may be stated in various ways, but they all amount to this: that it is wrong for a man to say he is certain of the objective truth of a proposition unless he can produce evidence which logically justifies that certainty. That is what agnosticism asserts and, in my opinion, is all that is essential to agnosticism.

- see ibid
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Or, if you would prefer a theist site ...

3) Agnosticism, as a term of modern philosophy, is used to describe those theories of the limitations of human knowledge which deny the constitutional ability of the mind to know reality and conclude with the recognition of an intrinsically Unknowable. The existence of "absolute reality" is usually affirmed while, at the same time, its knowableness is denied. Kant, Hamilton, Mansel, and Spencer make this affirmation an integral part of their philosophic systems. The Phenomenalists, however, deny the assertion outright, while the Positivists, Comte and Mill, suspend judgment concerning the existence of "something beyond phenomena". (See POSITIVISM.)

(4) Modern Agnosticism differs from its ancient prototype. Its genesis is not due to a reactionary spirit of protest, and a collection of sceptical arguments, against "dogmatic systems" of philosophy in vogue, so much as to an adverse criticism of man's knowing-powers in answer to the fundamental question: What can we know? Kant, who was the first to raise this question, in his memorable reply to Hume, answered it by a distinction between "knowable phenomena" and "unknowable things-in-themselves". Hamilton soon followed with his doctrine that "we know only the relations of things". Modern Agnosticism is thus closely associated with Kant's distinction and Hamilton's principle of relativity. It asserts our inability to know the reality corresponding to our ultimate scientific, philosophic, or religious ideas.

- see Catholic Encyclopedia: Agnosticism
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But, enough of definitions. You may call it moonmanoneism and moonmantwoism if you it gives you comfort.

Now, rather than hide behind semantic diversions, why not simply tell us how your position on the Faerie Kingdom, Unicorns, Past-Life Regression, Panspermia, Kali, Ba'al, etc., differs, if at all, from your position on YHWH/Jesus - regardless of the term(s) you use to represent that position(s).
 
NONE of us can convince you to believe what you dont know or havent experienced for yourself....what we can do is give you cause to question, and entertain ideas or thoughts that may upon your investigation and reasoning render a change in your current beliefs or lack their of.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Convince me that I should think like you?

Originally posted by daktaklakpak
What makes you think the wooden ship can be fossilized on the surface of earth? Unless you suggest that Noah had used timber shaped stones to build the Ark.
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i know next to nothing about this stuff......but I'll mention that it was made of gopher wood in a time where there was no rain or seasons........plus its in a mountain, that altitude might warrent special consideration!
 
What makes you think the wooden ship can be fossilized on the surface of earth? Unless you suggest that Noah had used timber shaped stones to build the Ark.
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Ever heard of petrified wood? Its actually wood in which the wood has gradually been replaced by sediments over a long period of time.
 
I think you should think like me, because then you would be allowed to think whatever you want to, convinced?
 
Now, rather than hide behind semantic diversions, why not simply tell us how your position on the Faerie Kingdom, Unicorns, Past-Life Regression, Panspermia, Kali, Ba'al, etc., differs, if at all, from your position on YHWH/Jesus - regardless of the term(s) you use to represent that position(s).
Click to expand...

I believe in a universe of infinite size infinite time and infinite possibility. I percieve an utterly insignificant part of this universe. My position to your listings is this, anything and everything is possible but highly unlikely according to what I know, BUT I know next to nothing, I mean If I had all the knowledge of man kind in my mind I would still know the equivalent of a grain of sand in the Sahara.

Erm that's enough before I say anything idiotic again, perhaps I already have. Who cares:p.
 
why do we always end up arguing over what agnostic means?

"that it is wrong for a man to say he is certain of the objective truth of a proposition unless he can produce evidence which logically justifies that certainty. That is what agnosticism asserts and, in my opinion, is all that is essential to agnosticism. "

i like this one:)
 
Originally posted by moonman
This goes to anyone and everyone, why do you deem that I should think just like you?
Atheists- Why don't you want me to believe?
Theists- Why should I follow your ways?
*Agnostics- Bravo**
Click to expand...
if I was a fanatical religious leader who needs some suicide bombers to serve my cause,or just to give $$ to my church so I can live like a millionare while you feel good about your soul being saved,I would say,,come join my club, brother,god/allah/whatever is great,glory haleluja praise the Lawd,etc.
atheists can only offer you reality,which can be hard to digest/accept,
no immortal fantasy here just truth,so what do you prefer honesty or lies?
www.atheists.org
www.thewaronfaith.com
 
Honesty of course. But the question here is not which is to prefere Theism or Athesim, I don't want to dispute this. My question is can a utillitarian and universal mindframe be justified, the question of wether the views are theistic or atheistic was moreover used as a tool to grab some attention as this is the focus of most debate on this forum but hte goal of the debate is often overlooked relative to the actual content of the debate.
 
ie. Everyone should not believe in god and spend time otherwise wasted on prayer reasearching medicine and not starting wars over religious disputes.

or elatively. Everyone should believe and worship a one true god and be good and stuff so that they get into heaven.
 
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