And let's not forget, it was the original Mr Rogers' Neighborhood crew that produced Night of the Living Dead, which is quite a radical and progressive film for 1968.
Congratulations America - you got the president you deserve
- Thread starter Hercules Rockefeller
- Start date
And it is worth noting that Hitler's go-to attack for his political opponents was to call them Marxists.
Gawdzilla Sama
Valued Senior Member
No, they don't. They avoid the heavy lifting of clarity of thought. It's lazy, just lazy to use them. The only reason they are used is that people can't make a good argument for their position without them, ignoring the fact that using them nullifies the accuracy of said conclusions. It is just lazy and just silly.
Gawdzilla Sama
Valued Senior Member
Hold over from WWI. Trump used buzz words without actually getting them contextually relevant.
exchemist
Valued Senior Member
Practicality. Deported to where? And at what cost?
Gawdzilla Sama
Valued Senior Member
And children born here, they go "home" or are they citizens? What if they place they're going back to is far worse than here? Wouldn't it be better to shoot them out of hand?
If they aren't criminals, then they are probably doing jobs no one wants to do and are paying taxes Why would that be a bad thing?
Trek
Registered Senior Member
Back to their own countries.
What do you mean by “at what cost?”
But they are criminals.
They entered the country illegally.
Immigration isn’t a bad thing. In fact it is a good, and necessary thing. But you can’t just have open borders, inviting any and everybody to come into a country without any kind of vetting process.
The Biden administration should be held accountable.
The Biden administration put forth a bipartisan plan that would have addressed a great deal of problems with immigration policies, but Trump told the Speaker of the House to bury it so that Trump could run on it for the election. Republicans should be held accountable.
And yet from those "lazy" mechanisms we get modern public health, democratic elections, and a functioning stock market. I will take them.
Of course. As did Hitler. The important thing is the emotional response to the words; nothing to do with accuracy.
Gawdzilla Sama
Valued Senior Member
Good luck with that.
Sweeping generalizations are a fallacy. Or did you just fubar something?
No, both the expression "illegal immigrant" and "criminal" are antiquated in this context. The Moral Elite revised the terms and the status some time ago.
- An an action can be illegal, but a person isn’t (2013): "Illegal immigrants? ... Last week the influential Associated Press style book announced it was banning the phrase that promotes stigmatization and dehumanization..."
Living in the United States without documentation is a civil offense, not a criminal one (2019): "Living in the U.S. without legal authorization (unlawful presence) is a civil offense, while improper entry (crossing the border without inspection), is a misdemeanor. Most immigrants who do not have proper documentation arrived in the United States legally, and therefore have not committed a crime."
No human being is illegal: "While certain actions may be criminal, or illegal, people cannot be illegal. Although, in the US, it is a federal crime to enter the country without inspection, it is not a crime to be present within the country without authorization. Thus, a person living in the US without status, or without a valid visa, is not committing a crime..."
It is all good, now. Globalization may be collapsing -- the US no longer has enough vessels to protect the shipping lanes, even if it still desired to. But leaving the country's borders porous for abused migrants and refugees is a lingering gesture of America's former obligation to secure the welfare of the world. Or would be an applicable thought orientation, if not for Trump and the Immoral Commoners now looming over and hindering such.
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Nope. Let's look at some examples.
Immunization programs. In immunization programs, it is assumed that most people get vaccinated. That is a generalization, and certainly not true at the micro level. Some people are too young to safely get vaccinated. Some are immunocompromised, and the benefit isn't worth the risk. Some think that Bill Gates will track them with the secret microchips in the vaccine, and thus refuse. But if MOST people get vaccinated (that generalization again) then vaccination works; society at large develops a herd immunity that protects that immunocompromised guy as well.
In a mob, you can generalize some responses. People in mobs are generally having emotional responses and reacting violently as a whole, leading to vandalism, looting and risk to other people. Not all the people in a mob are like this. A few people are no doubt trying to stop them. But as a whole, the mob shows that characteristic behavior which from a 10,000 foot perspective looks like everyone is acting together. Not accurate individually, but accurate as a generalization. And people who have to deal with such mobs (police, storeowners) use this generalization to their benefit.
exchemist
Valued Senior Member
Who pays for the flights? They probably cannot do so themselves in many instances. And how do you know what country each of them came from, if they have no ID? And then there are the simple logistics of moving vast numbers of people. Here is one estimate of the cost: https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/mass-deportation
I quote the most relevant section:
In total, we find that the cost of a one-time mass deportation operation aimed at both those populations—an estimated total of is at least $315 billion. We wish to emphasize that this figure is a highly conservative estimate. It does not take into account the long-term costs of a sustained mass deportation operation or the incalculable additional costs necessary to acquire the institutional capacity to remove over 13 million people in a short period of time—incalculable because there is simply no reality in which such a singular operation is possible. For one thing, there would be no way to accomplish this mission without mass detention as an interim step.
If you don't get agreement from the presumed country of origin that an undocumented person is one of their citizens, the country will not accept to have the person just dumped on them. Establishing citizenship and/or identity will often need individual interviews at the relevant embassy before a person is deported. We are talking of several million people here, comprising almost 5% of the entire US workforce: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-r...out-unauthorized-immigrants-living-in-the-us/.
Beware of politicians promising easy, simple solutions to complicated issues. They are usually not well thought out and don't work as advertised.
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Gawdzilla Sama
Valued Senior Member
LOL
Furthermore, what you've exampled is only the direct cost of deporting people, i.e. the logistics etc.
The wider economy would be massively impacted, not just from the loss of tax revenues at the federal and state level, but from the loss of workers. Farm workforce is c.40-50% illegal immigrants, and construction at least 15%. There's also the studies that have shown that for every 0.5 million immigrants no longer working, the US-born workers lose about 40-50k jobs.
Then, with c.4-5 million children born in the US to at least one illegal immigrant parent, the mass deportation could create c.4 million single-parent families. Single-parent families are thought to cost the economy 20k USD in net debt per annum, so this would create a burden of c.80 billion per year from the splitting up of families.
The economy might ultimately suffer by being c.5% below where it would otherwise be - which might not sound much, but equates to c.1.4 trillion per year. Now that is a cost worth understanding.
Gawdzilla Sama
Valued Senior Member
Wheels within wheels.
exchemist
Valued Senior Member
Yes, I didn’t want to get into all that but you are obviously right. You can’t lop off 5% of your workforce without economic damage - and then, on top, there are all the costs of dependents when you break up families.
A classic example of a “simple” solution turning out to be far from it. As we in the UK found - and are still finding - Brexit to be……
