Conceptual integrity?

Tiassa

Let us not launch the boat ...
Valued Senior Member
Should your actions represent your asserted principles? More appropriately, is it a necessity?

If I pick out a specific group for an example, there is a reason.

Christians. Yes, there will be theology to discuss, but there is a moral and ethical point I'm after here.

In American politics, we often hear much about Christianity. Strangely, however, it is very tough to figure out what Christians actually believe. It is such that many people feel no point in discussing issues with "Christians": after banging their head against the wall in one conversation, one finds that the "Christian" theology they object to has mysteriously transformed to be and mean something else. For instance, an acquaintance of mine is an intolerant but well-meaning fool. It is unwise to discuss theology or even respond to his attempts to initiate discussions about religion because no matter what Christian told you what whenever, you're misguided and have the wrong impression. Of course, he's better at telling people what's wrong than what's right, but there's no point in asking any question because he won't answer it, but rather tell you why the question is wrong, and how Seventh-Day Adventists are the only people who are diligent about their faith, which point is supposed to imply that you should believe him when he says you're wrong, even though he can't tell you what the correct concept is.

Set that one aside, though. Today's issue is more direct. We consider what Christians believe, because it is hard to figure the morals and theology involved in the April 19, 2007 protest of Mike Daisey's presentation of Invincible Summer. Click here for video and blog entry.

The short summary is simply this: eighty-seven Christians walked out of his show in an organized protest, pausing only to vandalize the handwritten original script outline--effectively destroying it--and attempting to leave without any other comment.

What I'm wondering, however, is how we reconcile an organized vandal protest by eighty-seven Christians with the sales pitches, political arguments, and other espousals by our American corpus Christi that disagree with such belligerence and vandalism, that decry such acts as morally corrupt, that condemn lesser demonstrations by others?

And that's the thing. If we pay attention to what we are told by Christians, we hear one set of principles. And then we witness all manner of depravity in actions: mock executions of the Easter Bunny, bombing campaigns against doctors' offices, blaming the actions of foreign terrorists on domestic women and homosexuals. In Australia once, Christians attempted to menace and vandalize a gallery where Serrano's "Piss Christ" was on display. And then there's this latest incident, and you'll notice I'm not going to call out the Catholic abuse scandal, sexually-corrupt polygamist structures in some Mormon towns, or other such large-ticket issues. Those are beside the point. I mean, in Seattle, we've got a guy who apparently went abroad under false credentials as a White House envoy, and though he claims proof that he was an envoy, he refuses to release it. Come on, it's these little things. They're pervasive.

But the thing is that what I see as a huge conflict between principle and action may be nothing at all. That's where theology is bound to enter the discussion.

So the place to start is the question of judging words and actions. Beyond that, I suppose, is how deeply does this apply? Because we cannot--and need not even attempt to--claim that these hypocrites represent all of Christianity. We cannot because it is inappropriate, and we need not because given time the Christians will prove that point themselves.

And there's the ethical and moral issue: If you claim to be something, should you not act as if you are actually that something? Look, I know we're all human and imperfect, but shouldn't we at least try?

I sat behind the table, looking up in his face with shock. My job onstage is to be as open as possible, to weave the show without a script as it comes, and this leaves me very emotionally available--and vulnerable, if an audience chooses to abuse that trust. I doubt I will ever forget the look in his face as he defaced the only original of the handwritten show outline--it was a look of hatred, and disgust, and utter and consuming pride.

It is a face I have seen in Riefenstahl's work, and in my dreams, but never on another human face, never an arm's length from me--never directed at me, hating me, hating my words and the story that I've chosen to tell. That face is not Christian, by any definition Christ would be proud to call his own--its naked righteousness and contempt have nothing to do with the godhead, and everything to do with pathetic human pride at its very worst ....

.... I tried to engage with the group as they fled, but they ran out like cowards, and not one of them would stand and discuss with me what they'd done. That cowardice still takes my breath away--that they wouldn't stand and speak like men and women and tell me in their voices their grievances .... I fought to the end to get a single voice to speak and reckon with me, but they ran and didn't look back. (Mike Daisey)

The Stranger's Brendan Kiley notes: "Back in 1918, H.L. Mencken wrote in Damn!: 'He’d be a much nicer fellow if he had a good swear now and then.' Obviously, Mencken’s wisdom stands."

In the end, this demonstration just doesn't seem like the "Christian" thing to do. But who am I to say? There are plenty of Christians, I'm sure, who can tell me why there is no discord between Christian principle and Christian action such as this.

And, of course, Christian principles are exceptionally difficult; for instance, despite the tremendous Christian influence in the United States, our response to the 9/11 bombing has been anything but. I don't wonder about that--("Thank God" for the First Amendment)--although I do wonder about the number of Christians on the war-wagon. That's a tougher issue, though, and I'm not willing to officially call it out here. After all, we are human.

But, really: Doesn't it cheapen a demonstration to have it violative of the idea you're promoting or defending thereby?
 
And there's the ethical and moral issue: If you claim to be something, should you not act as if you are actually that something? Look, I know we're all human and imperfect, but shouldn't we at least try?

Yes.

And oddly, you typed up that whole bullshit piece about Christians, when you could have simply asked the above question. Why Christians? Why not Muslims? Jews? Green Peacers? ..... Or human group? One of the main, consistent traits of being human is to be hypocritical.

"Do as I say, not as I do!"

Baron Max
 
Baron Max said:

And oddly, you typed up that whole bullshit piece about Christians, when you could have simply asked the above question. Why Christians? Why not Muslims? Jews? Green Peacers? ..... Or human group? One of the main, consistent traits of being human is to be hypocritical.

I would think that an obvious answer, Max: They're the example before us.

Now, given the diversity of perspectives within the Christian body politic, the issue is simply not as simple as you paint it. There are, after all, folks in the world who believe such conduct as we witness in the video to be fully in accord with Christian principles. To reiterate what I wrote in the topic post:

But the thing is that what I see as a huge conflict between principle and action may be nothing at all.

As such it would look rather silly for me to simply post a link and a question about hypocrisy when the result would just be that someone, perhaps you, would inquire as to the link between the activists' behavior and hypocrisy.

Really, according to your post, I didn't even need go as far as the question you cited. Had I simply left the topic post at the first sentence, should I have reasonably expected anyone to know what I was talking about? Who doesn't think, had I left it at one sentence, that I wouldn't be answering your indignant complaint about my inability to be specific?

Strange that for as much as you seem to dislike my choice of examples, you would still have me treat the Christians in a backhanded, inconsiderate manner that ignores their humanity, diversity, and reality.

Perhaps next time you wish to complain about bullshit, Baron Max, you could at least do us the courtesy of not depicting yourself as the intellectual equal of a broken egg. It isn't so much an offense that you should ask questions that are answered in the text you didn't read, but your indignant pretense. Can the righteousness, Max.
 
Now, given the diversity of perspectives within the Christian body politic, the issue is simply not as simple as you paint it.

Yes, it is.

There are, after all, folks in the world who believe such conduct as we witness in the video to be fully in accord with Christian principles.

And there are also people in the world who believe that the moon is made of green cheese, but we seldom take them seriously. Yet, from your post, we should???

Baron Max
 
The american christian right are in no way shape or form 'christians' when you actually look into what they believe in.
They think the bible is some sex-within marriage, lockup your daughters, pro-hate, anti-masturbatory self help book.
Theyre really just buying into a bastardised form of christianity which which actually owes more to victorian repression and delicate sensiblities than ancient religious doctrine.
Id be suprised if the christian right between them has ever actually managed to read the entire bible; id be willing to bet theyve actually read more Bill O'riely than J.H.Christ.

Im not a christian myself in any way shape or form, but i do tend to think Jesus was a pretty decent bloke whod absolutely tear modern day christians to shreads for their absolute hyporcacy and dogmatism.
It's funny because the whole point of christianity originally was to fight empirialism and self-interest, and sadly that's exactly what its come to represent in the modern age.
 
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Baron Max said:

Yes, it is.

If you say so, Max. Makes it a lot easier, though: Christians are a violent, dangerous, subversive organization dedicated to overthrowing social and political institutions in the world in order to pave the way for a "coming of God". This campaign involves the overthrow of human rights and dignity in favor of a dignity accorded by their conception of God which involves focus on the inadequacies of women, the inherent corruption and evil of all humans, rejection of the scientific method, and a loathing for human equality before the law. The history asserted by Christians includes the torture of women suspected of infidelity, the demand that women remain silent participants in religious politics, divine commands to genocide and the punishment of those who do not carry out such acts. Christians are gangstas who wear gold crosses as they gun down their enemies; they are soldiers who commit torture as a "gift" from Jesus Christ; they are pedophiles and polygamists--in Utah some communities have even been busted when it turned out that the law enforcement structure was arresting and persecuting potential suitors to young girls desired as additional wives by members of the establishment. They are terrorists who bomb abortion clinics or exact their holy judgments on teachers and schoolmates. They are antagonists who appeal to a higher law than the Supreme Law of the Land. Christians are un-American, a threat to society and security, and a danger to the future of all human institutions. According Christians the proper regard of a proper religion would be as irrational as granting the same to Islam, which would be the equivalent of recognizing the protected status of Al Qaeda as a bona fide religion.

No, Max, I don't think you're right that it's that simple, but the prior paragraph reminds me of how much easier and more fun it is to believe in that sort of nonsense.

And there are also people in the world who believe that the moon is made of green cheese, but we seldom take them seriously. Yet, from your post, we should???

I don't recall any witches being set aflame by the Green Cheesers for the crime of claiming the moon was made of cream cheese. I have yet to see any evidence that Green Cheesers stripped their women and hauled them through town in a horsecart in the dead of winter in order that the public might spit and throw stones at them. I never heard a priest of the Green Cheese order blame the actions of Al Qaeda on women and homosexuals.

Face it, Max: the world might be better off if the Christians were relegated to a status similar the Green Cheesers, but it ain't gonna happen.

We only take Christians seriously because treating them with the same disregard we award the Green Cheesers is currently viewed as hateful. For instance, that we don't finance further expeditions to harvest the green cheese on the moon is not generally considered hateful or oppressive. But refusing to finance Intelligent Design as part of the science curriculum in public schools is, to many, oppressive and part of a conspiracy to wipe out Christianity.

The Green Cheesers, unlike the Christians, are not a large enough voting bloc to attempt to force my daughter to learn insidious substitutions for fact. The Green Cheesers, unlike Christians, have not enough social power to seriously threaten my freedom or equality before the law.

There are fewer reasons to take the Green Cheesers seriously, Max. Or, at least, so says me. For all I know, you could see Green Cheesers and Christians as one and the same, or at least roughly equivalent. In such a case, though, I would assert a cheese paranoia to the one, and a tragically hopeful underestimation to the other.

I might make one other note, Max. You wrote earlier, "And oddly, you typed up that whole bullshit piece about Christians, when you could have simply asked the above question."

Quite frankly, you make my point for me. The extra words are, in fact, a way of attempting to preclude such silly nitpicking as Christianity vs. Green Cheese. Then again, some people just aren't happy either way.
 
Heliocentric said:

.... but i do tend to think Jesus was a pretty decent bloke whod absolutely tear modern day christians to shreads for their absolute hyporcacy and dogmatism.

They wouldn't listen.

I wish I had a copy scanned for these occasions, but back in about 1996, Pulitzer Prize-winning cartoonist David Horsey (Seattle Post-Intelligencer) put up a cartoon about a woman named Ellen Creswell, who was running for governor, and the power of the "Christian right" in the state GOP. The frame featured Jesus, shown from the back, standing before a committee of Christian Republicans who rejected him as a candidate for being too liberal and compassionate. It's one of the most devastating indictments of the Christian right I've ever seen. Maybe someday I'll find a copy of it. He has books out, and it's bound to be in there.

A great indictment, indeed, of a lack of conceptual integrity.
 
Christians are a violent, dangerous, subversive organization dedicated to overthrowing social and political institutions in the world in order to pave the way for a "coming of God".

How many Christians are actually like that? And aren't you judging the entire group by the actions of only a few? Is that they way you'd suggest that we all view other groups of people ...judge them by the actions of only a few?

Then again, some people just aren't happy either way.

I agree ....and you seem to be one of those people.

Baron Max
 
Baron Max said:

How many Christians are actually like that? And aren't you judging the entire group by the actions of only a few? Is that they way you'd suggest that we all view other groups of people ...judge them by the actions of only a few?

My point exactly.
 
From Slate.com:

.... Deputy Secretary of State Randall Tobias resigned April 27 after confirming to ABC News that he's on Jeane Palfrey's little list. Palfrey is a D.C. madam under prosecution who's been negotiating with lawyers for various prominent johns over whether to release their names to the public .... (Noah)

Why is this significant? As ABC News' Brian Ross and Justin Rood report,

As the Bush administration's so-called "AIDS czar," Tobias was criticized by some for emphasizing faithfulness and abstinence over condom use to prevent the spread of AIDS.

Again, I know we're all human, and no, I don't believe he was only getting a massage. I don't actually care about this episode except that Tobias has been such an abstinence advocate. If you're the IRS chief, tax fraud is the last thing you should be getting busted for, you know? If you're a Buddhist monk, why exactly are you beating the crap out of your fellow monks from a different order?

Really, if you're a high-ranking abstinence advocate ...?
 
Really, if you're a high-ranking abstinence advocate ...?

Well, interestingly, you said it yourself .....and I quote: "Again, I know we're all human, ..."

So, since you answered your own question quite adequately, why are you asking the question?

Baron Max
 
Baron Max said:

Well, interestingly, you said it yourself .....and I quote: "Again, I know we're all human, ..."

So, since you answered your own question quite adequately, why are you asking the question?

It comes back to conceptual integrity, Max: moral assertions tend to regard our base humanity as something to be developed, augmented, and improved. Whatever one believes internally is subject to whatever conflicts one invokes through behavior. As such, a person with moral beliefs in general might violate those beliefs, and the fruit of that violation is their own bitter harvest. But when one involves other people in those moral projections, so, too, does the fruit of the harvest affect them.

For such moralists as seek to transcend humanity's inherent evil, relying on base humanity to excuse oneself just doesn't cut it.

In this case, people can have all the hookers they want. But when you make your living at the public expense promoting a moral assertion, no, you don't get to be as basically human as everyone else. You have already declared that basic humanity unsatisfactory and inappropriate.

If people in such positions as Mr. Tobias gave reasonable consideration to base humanity and its roles and manifestations in society, then such excuses as "we're all human" would offer greater and more legitimate support on those occasions when they fail to be as divine as they expect others to be.
 
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