Comparison

Energy

Registered Senior Member
Do you believe there is a difference between the 'Ch'i' used for health and martial arts in eastern medical and combat systems, and the 'parapsychological abilities' described in certain western/eastern circles (such as this one)?

My personal opinion is that there is little difference in the intrinsic energy being used, but the application of that energy, and the manipulation of it, is different due to cultural interference over the years in the two respective regions (east/west). Just curious, though, I wanted to get an overall impression of what you all think.
 
Generaly I'd have to say that you are correct here, Energy. They are VERY much alike, in that there is no visable result from either, nor is their any reason to believe that they exist in the first place.
 
Just like the internal monolog in your head, or even better the watcher, that listens to the monolog.

If it cannot be proven with hard evidence then it does not exist right? :rolleyes:

...Sorry mystech, couldent help it :D
 
Hm

I suppose it's all right if you think that, Mystech, though I wonder if such a statement would have been better placed in another category, perhaps where people are debating the existence of parapsychology? In either case, hard evidence is rather vague. I don't need hard evidence of someone else feeling/manipulating energy when I've felt it myself. For me, that's hard evidence. To you, it's not.
 
Tell me, then, seeing how as you are clearly using some other definition of energy than the one which the rest of the world is aware of, describe for me what exactly the term means.
 
Energy

Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary states:
Energy:
1) Vigorous exertion of power (effort)
2) a. The capacity of acting or being active (intellectual ~) b. Dynamic quality (narrative ~)
3) The capacity for doing work
4) Unusable power (as heat or electricity), also: the resources for producing such power.

Is this the
definition of energy ~ which the rest of the world is aware of
you were talking about? If it is, than I agree with you: that is energy. However, there is a word in Eastern medical and combative practices called Qi, Ch'i, or Ki (depending on where one lives and the spelling of the word in that area) of which the closest definition in western terms would be 'life energy' or 'life force.' It exists in the air, in rocks, because in order to exist something must have energy in it, but it primarily focuses on living things. One of the common phrases used to describe it is 'intrinsic energy,' to divide it from the other kinds of energy. However, because it is precisely none of the above definitions... and yet encompasses all of them, you're right. Perhaps energy isn't the best word. However, I do what I can with what words I'm given.

I hope I've described it enough for you. If you would like a better description, please ask for one.
 
Yes, actually that was very helpful. I know about Chi, just because of an interest in (and I hope I spell this right) Feng shwie.

Now just because I have an interest in it doesn't mean I think it has any metaphysical ability to make things better, but I must admit that the Chinese know how to make a room look nice.

Anyway, now that we have that cleared up I'd ask you what observable evidence there is in support of such "energies".
 
*sigh*

You've asked me to open your eyes when you seem determined to keep them closed. I could give you a few known examples, Mystech. The Ganzfeld Experiments and Kirlian Photography are two well known scientific evidences. The achievements of fire-walkers and other 'mystics' seem beyond science. But the only evidence I find intriguing is what I feel myself, because if one does not believe, one will never see. Every evidence I could give you, you could find some reason to doubt, because you reject the very idea. That's just fine. Whether a person acknowledges the existence of energy, it will flow, so the acknowledgment doesn't matter unless someone wants to feel that flow.
 
On the contrary, I'd say that I'm doing a very good job of trying to understand. I'm asking questions for clarification, and trying to see what evidence you have to back it up.

If I were simply to nod my head and say "You know what I bet you're right about all of this" I have completely failed in any attempt to actually understand the matter. Putting blind faith in anything someone says without evidence or substantiation is fallacious, there's no reason at all for it. You should be happy to have someone asking questions, to the best of my knowledge you are not opening a church, and as such no faith should be required to be able to converse with you, and address your claims.

You are making claims of knowledge, and as of yet I haven't said anything to refute what you are trying to put forward. In these situations the burden of proof lies upon you, as the positive claimant, to prove your position, and by listening to what you have to say, and critically analyzing your support, I am attempting to gain genuine understanding of the topic at hand. This is how people gain knowledge, so please don't get upset about having to go through these motions. Getting angry about it only shows me that you'd rather have my faith than my genuine understanding.

Now, as for the points you’ve bought forward regarding “fire walkers”, The Ganzfeld Experiments and Kirlian Photography I’ll address those presently. If by “Fire walkers” you are referring to people who walk on hot coals, there is nothing at all extraordinary about this fact. One may be tempted to wonder how one could walk across them without sustaining any injury, but the fact is that most people don’t. At every example of this there has been an ambulance present because people DO end up getting burned. As for those who are able to walk across them without sustaining injury, this is because of the fact that ash has accumulated at the top of the coals, and everything open to the air has cooled to a temperature which is relatively safe to walk across, note that the coals always tend to be black on top, and the redder ones tend to be down near the bottom. I’ve seen this before on discovery channel shows involving discrediting charlatans, and the like, and even walked across hot coals once myself at a Hawaiian themed party for my neighbor’s kid, when she was accepted to the UoH.

Now, as for the Ganzfeld experiments and Kirlian photography, I have to admit that I just don’t know enough about either of these to make a comment on them, so I’m going to have to take that step toward better understanding, and ask you for more information, and possibly some helpful links, just so that we can get on the same page.
 
The onus of proof isn't necessarily on me, because I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm not old enough to get my hands on some decent lab equipment, or find a helpful professor who's actually willing to talk. But, because argument is a joyous game, I'll play.

Fire walking: Walking over coals is hardly the fire-walking I'm talking about, although some of those couldn't be very easily explained by science. I'm referring to those who walk on embers of burnt wood, such as the eastern Shugenda do every year. A tower (ceremonial) made of wood is burnt down and made to fit a rectangle on the ground. Helpers keep the embers burning and fresh by putting new wood on and lighting it between the fire-walks. Those who walk use no oils or protections for their feet, and some even stamp at the embers, driving their feet in (although not all do so).

Kirlian Photography: Here's a summary: Kirlian Photography is, photographing a person in the middle of a controlled electric shock. The first photographers found that patterns appeared within the body that corresponded to the Chinese 'meridians' and 'acupressure points.' There is a weakness to the technology: that moisture on the outside of the skin influences the end picture. That is why those who take it are suggested to dry off before they take the pictures, although (admittedly) this does not always happen. Because of the variables, is it proof in itself? Probably not. But it's evidence, combined with the fact that it seems to line up with ancient Chinese practices is interesting, and that's what you asked for.
For a more sales-oriented site: http://www.kirlian.org/kirlian.htm
or perhaps http://www.synergy-co.com (graphics-intensive)
htt://www.vernoncoleman.com/kirl.htm

Ganzfeld Experiment: The least known, the place I find best is http://www.psiexplorer.com . It has some other very interesting experiments as well, including video and sound in some cases.
 
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