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Communists
- Thread starter MewSkitty
- Start date
I have been back now in Finland for almost a week. In this time I had time to observe closely the differences between the US and Finland regarding immigration and infrastructure, because both are fresh in my memory.
although not all of the following comments will deal with socialism vs capitalism they will possibly give insight into the difference between both systems on a 'degree' level. What happens to a country when a country is 'more' socialist.
First I would like to comment of the size argument. It's been said before that the system in the US cannot work efficiently because of the size of the country (in many threads). That's why I paid close attention to this problem when I went through the Finnish system.
Most of the social infrastructure in finland is decentralized. The entire country is divided up into small units that have an identical set of social and regulatory infrastructure. On paper something similar is present in most countries, but there is a clear difference with for instance the USA.
- Important decisions are made on the spot and locally. That never happened in the US. Everything was send on to a central spot.
For instance immigration: You go to the local police station that is part of the small social unit you live in.These units are on the size of about a city. There you fill in a paper and there your application is processed. This is possible because all information is centralized in a national computer data system that is based on the social security number. The person behind the desk types in your social security number and sees all. And based on that a decision can be made. The case is too difficult to decide on the spot and the matter is send to a higher level official, or for instance in my case it was easy (married to a Fin). My marriage showed on the computer. This is verified with my identity. Decision is made. No weeks of waiting.
Another example is the social security number. We go to the magistrate (where civil matters are registered). We wanted to register our american born son. We show the American birth certificate with apostille. We show our identity. The person behind the desk checks this with the computer system. The social security system is issued within 5 minutes. Not a month like in the US. That is because the system is decentralized. Power is given to the people that deal with the public. hardly anything is send onwards to higher levels. In case of doubt a higher official is called to the desk. And attitude of 'i don't care' doesn't fly. They are given the means to deal with problems on a local level and they must do so. I myself had to wait 2 months for a social security number in the US. Simply because the person behind the desk is nothing more than someone accepting papers and pushing them on to someone else.
Is this socialism? It is a result of the socialist principles. Small scale communities where everybody is the same. The power is distributed. Responsibility is given to deal with local problems. The entire infrastructure of society is organized around this principle. Small communities that are self sufficient. A local health care center (public) in each neighbourhoud, a major hospital in each bigger area, etc. Most problems are dealt with on a local level. If this isn't possible the problem goes to a higher level.
The size of the country would not matter for this system. It would work just as well in the US in principle.
It makes everything easier. The system assumes people are capable of doing what they are trained for. It speeds everything up. What took me half a year to arrange in the US it took me a week in Finland. Sure there are still a few small things that need to be taken care of, but the major things are done. Sure, I am a EU citizen so the immigration part is much easier for me. But if I had a job it would still be easy. When I first came to finland in 1999 the forms were actually still the same for EU nationals and other foreigners because the new rules hadn't really been integrated yet. It was still easy then. You just needed proof you had a job and fill out a form. It was still no hassle.
Secondly, the neighbourhood is built on socialist principles. It makes living better. Playgrounds in almost every appartment block. Healthcare center in every small neighbourhood, public transport everywhere, subsidized appartments for rent (that is the companies that rent out apartments are often non-profit, or are subsidized creating better living conditions for the poorer segment of society) etc.
On this level, the community, socialism works much better than any other system. Sure, you have to pay more taxes, but you actually get something back for it.
In conclusion:
Size doesn't matter.
A good or decent neighbourhood for all, not just the double income upper and middle class.
although not all of the following comments will deal with socialism vs capitalism they will possibly give insight into the difference between both systems on a 'degree' level. What happens to a country when a country is 'more' socialist.
First I would like to comment of the size argument. It's been said before that the system in the US cannot work efficiently because of the size of the country (in many threads). That's why I paid close attention to this problem when I went through the Finnish system.
Most of the social infrastructure in finland is decentralized. The entire country is divided up into small units that have an identical set of social and regulatory infrastructure. On paper something similar is present in most countries, but there is a clear difference with for instance the USA.
- Important decisions are made on the spot and locally. That never happened in the US. Everything was send on to a central spot.
For instance immigration: You go to the local police station that is part of the small social unit you live in.These units are on the size of about a city. There you fill in a paper and there your application is processed. This is possible because all information is centralized in a national computer data system that is based on the social security number. The person behind the desk types in your social security number and sees all. And based on that a decision can be made. The case is too difficult to decide on the spot and the matter is send to a higher level official, or for instance in my case it was easy (married to a Fin). My marriage showed on the computer. This is verified with my identity. Decision is made. No weeks of waiting.
Another example is the social security number. We go to the magistrate (where civil matters are registered). We wanted to register our american born son. We show the American birth certificate with apostille. We show our identity. The person behind the desk checks this with the computer system. The social security system is issued within 5 minutes. Not a month like in the US. That is because the system is decentralized. Power is given to the people that deal with the public. hardly anything is send onwards to higher levels. In case of doubt a higher official is called to the desk. And attitude of 'i don't care' doesn't fly. They are given the means to deal with problems on a local level and they must do so. I myself had to wait 2 months for a social security number in the US. Simply because the person behind the desk is nothing more than someone accepting papers and pushing them on to someone else.
Is this socialism? It is a result of the socialist principles. Small scale communities where everybody is the same. The power is distributed. Responsibility is given to deal with local problems. The entire infrastructure of society is organized around this principle. Small communities that are self sufficient. A local health care center (public) in each neighbourhoud, a major hospital in each bigger area, etc. Most problems are dealt with on a local level. If this isn't possible the problem goes to a higher level.
The size of the country would not matter for this system. It would work just as well in the US in principle.
It makes everything easier. The system assumes people are capable of doing what they are trained for. It speeds everything up. What took me half a year to arrange in the US it took me a week in Finland. Sure there are still a few small things that need to be taken care of, but the major things are done. Sure, I am a EU citizen so the immigration part is much easier for me. But if I had a job it would still be easy. When I first came to finland in 1999 the forms were actually still the same for EU nationals and other foreigners because the new rules hadn't really been integrated yet. It was still easy then. You just needed proof you had a job and fill out a form. It was still no hassle.
Secondly, the neighbourhood is built on socialist principles. It makes living better. Playgrounds in almost every appartment block. Healthcare center in every small neighbourhood, public transport everywhere, subsidized appartments for rent (that is the companies that rent out apartments are often non-profit, or are subsidized creating better living conditions for the poorer segment of society) etc.
On this level, the community, socialism works much better than any other system. Sure, you have to pay more taxes, but you actually get something back for it.
In conclusion:
Size doesn't matter.
A good or decent neighbourhood for all, not just the double income upper and middle class.
I am happy you are happy at home but you’ve got it all wrong. Anyway I think size matters a great deal, you just compared a diminutive and homogenous community such as France to a large and widely heterogeneous community such as U.S. If America is centralized it’s because it has many different people and cultures plus it’s a really big country. However it's not as centralized as you think, it's states are fairly independent, Individual freedom is paramount compared to socialism, Corporations and special interest groups can exist and maneuver freely, and I know a friend who got his SSN in two weeks (I think they actually give it to you right there on the spot but send the card in two weeks). For a country with such diversity its' doing a pretty good job. Socialist countries are the ones who are centralized by principle, and the reason is because the government controls everything. Why information seems expeditious in Finland is because of its population size and homogeneousness. In many socialist countries very little passes by the state controller and freedom is compromised. Nevertheless, if you think size and diversity doesn’t matter you’ve got some serious thinking to do.