previous page... just before you entered the discussion today/night
first line...
the rest is glib but necessary
Co-Determinism and the Reality of Free Will
- Thread starter Quantum Quack
- Start date
first line...
the rest is glib but necessary
An it gets even beter/funnier as you add more "stuff" to it
..............................I prefer an un-muddled diagram.!!!
sorry, you'll have to be more specific, please, as I've looked but cant find anything resembling an explanation.
Which post number are you referring to?
Write4U
Valued Senior Member
You have already stipulated that determinism is true, even without humans being able to self-determine, no?
Adding self-determination to the list does not affect the original position that determinism is true.
Write4U
Valued Senior Member
p.s. QQ, Determinism (noun) and determining (verb) are only tangently related terms.
Determinism explains a prior causal physical state governing a subsequent result.
Determining is a conscious choice made from different causal states to be used to govern a result.
Obviously, there is a world of difference between the two. In fact the two definitions are incompatible in principle.
Determinism explains a prior causal physical state governing a subsequent result.
Determining is a conscious choice made from different causal states to be used to govern a result.
Obviously, there is a world of difference between the two. In fact the two definitions are incompatible in principle.
yes sometimes they can be quite compelling just like sound logic can be compelling or the truth can be compelling...
and if you feel you have no choice over any of the above compulsions you will automatically fight against that compulsion to regain or achieve the ability to self determine whether you agree or not.
So when confronted with sound reasoning that is compelling regardless of who may be saying such, the first inclination is to reject that reasoning. If sensitivity to compulsion is severe enough, ( such as witnessed in Paranoid Schizophrenia and many others) not only reject that sound reasoning but counter with irrationality.
When the straightforward logic mentioned in post #719 is met with insane ramblings and calls for support from those who can not deal with the compelling nature of the truth (*) you can be sure they are fighting being determined by that sound logic and rational, for agreement is always a choice.
(*) trigger word.
When the straightforward logic mentioned in post #719 is met with insane ramblings and calls for support from those who can not deal with the compelling nature of the truth (*) you can be sure they are fighting being determined by that sound logic and rational, for agreement is always a choice.
(*) trigger word.
Write4U
Valued Senior Member
How can a dream be causal? To the dream or to any subsequent action based on the dream?
So what?
Do you think those are necessary for the universe to be deterministic?
Since when does the human need to understand anything for the universe to be deterministic?
Whether we label it or not, whether we understand it or not, the universe does what it does.
Calling something deterministic isn't what makes it deterministic.
So I ask you: in what way is determinism an illusion if there is no self-determined actor?
Sorry, I thought post #719 was a joke.
Was it not intended as such?
Determinism is valid within this discussion because, I thought, it had been assumed as a premise.
If one sets something out as a premise then there is nothing further required for it to be valid, in the logical sense, if indeed it is correct to say that a premise is valid.
Usually it is arguments that are valid, and so I guess, having set out the premise, it would be valid to say that it determinism can be concluded because determinism is premised.
It's begging the question, sure, but still valid logic, and an easy way to show how determinism is valid.
But what exactly do you mean by "valid" in your post #719?
Do you instead mean the truth?
Again, if we have assumed the universe to be deterministic then, for purposes of this discussion, determinism is the truth.
End of.
Nothing more need be said.
It doesn't need self-determined actors to validate anything.
If the universe is deterministic then it is deterministic.
If you mean that it takes a self-determined actor to go through the process of validation, then yes.
But that doesn't mean that determinism is not valid just because there is noone to validate it.
Validation is the checking of the accuracy, but the accuracy is either there or it is not, irrespective of validation.
Just like your maths homework is either right or wrong even though the teacher hasn't marked it yet.
according to who?
You?
But you are an illusion...
sorry I don't listen to illusions...
I already know that I am philosophically correct.... and don't blame me for it either....
logically an illusion can not validate anything especially, another illusion...
(now that's a mouth full...
)
but also that doesn't mean self determination is invalid because there is no one to validate it....
If you had studied philosophy long enough you would know how erroneous your comment is.
Look up Epistemology and spend a few years grasping the concepts of what knowledge is and then maybe find that you need to spend a few more years...
Also Google
- Truth by Consensus.
- Absolute Objective Truth...
I am sure Sarkus can recall the time when sciforum's had some really erudite scholars posting. They don't any more.
They were great teachers and to be honest I miss that part of sciforums that no longer exists.
Baldeee
Example ( fiction):
One day scientists discover that there is not just cause and effect, there is indeed and intermediate phase...one that scientists could not observe because they didn't have the equipment to discover it. They also found that this intermediate phase was critical in a deterministic universe and was quite able to be manipulated and co-determined by humans. This led to hyperspace travel and ultimately the human infestation of the galaxy....and beyond...
or
They found the oldest known human remains on Mars, predating the African man by 6 million years
or so the story goes....
Example ( fiction):
One day scientists discover that there is not just cause and effect, there is indeed and intermediate phase...one that scientists could not observe because they didn't have the equipment to discover it. They also found that this intermediate phase was critical in a deterministic universe and was quite able to be manipulated and co-determined by humans. This led to hyperspace travel and ultimately the human infestation of the galaxy....and beyond...
or
They found the oldest known human remains on Mars, predating the African man by 6 million years
or so the story goes....
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How poetic! ( profound)
Yes, to me dreams offer a typically sub conscious go-between between instinctive compulsion and the evolution of higher intuitive skills and of course compelling certain decisions that have to be struggled, learned from and eventually mastered before being acted upon.
It is about the fight to self determine essentially that we struggle and deal with the compulsions that the universe and even ourselves manifest in our lives.
so yes, I agree, dreams are quintessential to being a human determiner.(*)
(*) trigger words
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Reality.
If something is then it is, whether we know it or not, whether we validate it or not.
For you to question such fundamentals of logic is... actually not surprising.
Your evasion and deflection tactics are growing tiresome.
You are mistaken, and don’t blame me for that.
Whatever is, is.
Law of identity.
If the universe is deterministic then that is what it is.
Period.
Please support this claim?
Explain what you mean by “illusion” (it seems to be a different understanding than certainly I have used in the past)?
Then the logic that leads you to this conclusion, please?
Or is this to be added to the list of unsupported nonsense you simply trot out when nowhere else to go?
Did you decide to post that diatribe of false accusation?
Or was it out of your hands so to speak...
Feeling a bit compelled are you?
Has anyone said otherwise?
But beware that “well, no one has disproven it” is never a good reason to hold something as true.
You can study philosophy as long as you want but you will still be wrong in this regard.
Bear in mind we’re talking about objective reality, not subjective reality, however widely shared.
The majority of the world believe God exists.
Is that reality?
Is that knowledge those people have, or is it just a claim of knowledge that they have?
Wow, God exists because the majority of the population believe in Him!
I’d never have thought it was so easy to know the truth just from that.
But I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you had some point behind pointing me to Google such notions.
Care to share what that point is, and how it rebuts the notion that if the universe is deterministic then it is deterministic?
Or is it, as expected, just more deflection and evasion on your part?
So again just more evasion and deflection rather than addressing the issue.
Ironic that you claim the accusations are false by committing the same as you are being accused of: deflection and evasion.
Whodathunkit!?
Sorry but i tank Baldeee should be posting not some compelled universe determined drone.