Co-Determinism and the Reality of Free Will

Write4U said:
Perhaps an infinity in expression of patterns? It most certainly is.
dnastructure.jpg
Wikipedia
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Agreed . Without stability , nothing can form . DNA included .

But the thing about Life is that it forms an energy which forms intelligence .
 
river said:
But the thing about Life is that it forms an energy which forms intelligence
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IMO, Life forms a demand for energy and greater energy collecting efficiency along with complexity.
Witness a Sunflower's heliotropism in addition to utilizing the mathematical Fibonacci Sequence in its seed distribution.

Trees use a fractal leaf distribution to maximize its light gathering abilities for photosynthesis and growth energy.
Note; this is a passive growth function in stationary biology. Pretty clever, no?
Is it intelligent? No. Is it quasi-intelligent? Yes.

Energy merely satisfies physical needs and while brains do use a lot of energy, the energy is only used in building brain tissue and during the act of thinking, aka. information processing.
 
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river said: ↑
But the thing about Life is that it forms an energy which forms intelligence
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Write4U said:
IMO, Life forms a demand for energy which forms greater collecting efficiency along with complexity.
Trees use a fractal leaf distribution to maximize its light gathering abilities for photosynthesis and growth energy.
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Not a demand for energy , but what is necessary for life to manifest .
 
Write4U said:
Energy merely satisfies physical needs and while brains do use a lot of energy, the energy is only used in building brain tissue and during the act of thinking, aka. information processing.
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just to extend that point, energy can be codified, encrypted with data and information....
That said, the Cosmic Background radiation (CBR) we are constantly surrounded by, could be a significant source of deterministic influences...

another thing life including human, has evolved to learn from and adapt to.
 
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Quantum Quack said:
just to extend that point, energy can be codified, encrypted with data and information....
That said, the Cosmic Background radiation (CBR) we are constantly surrounded by, could be a significant source of deterministic influences...

another thing life including human, has evolved to learn from and adapt to.
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Yes, and I am always amazed at the assertion that the universe is fine tuned for life on earth.
Truth is that life on earth is fine tuned to earth and the universe.

IMO, that supports the notion that evolution and natural selection are deterministic processes. Living organisms are proof of gradual unintentional adaptation to specific environments, where they find a comfortable survival niche.
 
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river said:
Prove your logic .
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Logic,
In logic, necessity and sufficiency are terms used to describe a conditional or implicational relationship between statements. For example, in the conditional statement "If P then Q", we say that "Q is necessary for P" because P cannot be true unless Q is true. Similarly, we say that "P is sufficient for Q" because P being true always implies that Q is true, but P not being true does not always imply that Q is not true.
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The assertion that a statement is a "necessary and sufficient" condition of another means that the former statement is true if and only if the latter is true. That is, the two statements must be either simultaneously true or simultaneously false.
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In ordinary English, "necessary" and "sufficient" indicate relations between conditions or states of affairs, not statements. Being a male sibling is a necessary and sufficient condition for being a brother.
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260px-Set_intersection.svg.png

Being in the purple region is sufficient for being in A, but not necessary.
Being in A is necessary for being in the purple region, but not sufficient.
Being in A and being in B is necessary and sufficient for being in the purple region.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessity_and_sufficiency
 
Write4U said:
Oddly, it just occurred to me that evolution itself is a deterministic function (potentials and probabilities).
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like I stated and have been stating for so many pages and so many posts...
Universal predetermination has evolved humans to have the ability to learn the ability to self determine......
I am glad that you finally worked it out....
 
Write4U said:
260px-Set_intersection.svg.png

Being in the purple region is sufficient for being in A, but not necessary.
Being in A is necessary for being in the purple region, but not sufficient.
Being in A and being in B is necessary and sufficient for being in the purple region.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessity_and_sufficiency
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A copy and paste is not you explaining...especially the relevance...
Q: Who or what determines the necessity or sufficiency?
A: Necessity is a subjective determination by humans.
Sufficiency like wise...
This is due to our ignorance of universal nature, which is still quite profound. ( we have only scratched the surface so to speak.)
Example:
Why did humans evolve a hand with 4 fingers and a thumb when 3 fingers and a thumb would suffice?
 
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Quantum Quack said:
like I stated and have been stating for so many pages and so many posts...
Universal predetermination has evolved humans to have the ability to learn the ability to self determine......
I am glad that you finally worked it out....
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HUHH.????........
images
 
Quantum Quack said:
A copy and paste is not you explaining...especially the relevance...
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I rather present the official reference entry than be called on a trivial detail.
Is copy and paste of a link too much work? It is sufficient to enter the site which gives great detail in the definition and uses of universal logic.
Necessity is a subjective determination by humans. Sufficiency like wise...
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Oh, that is not even wrong! Widen your horizons. Don't fall into the human semantics trap. All interactions are subjective to the objects in question. The objective rules of logical processing of information are universal. Nothing is exempt.
This is due to our ignorance of universal nature, which is still quite profound. ( we have only scratched the surface so to speak.)
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I would suggest you give the logic a second reading to see the inevitable truth of that statement and its relevance in the processing of physically relative natural values and functions.
 
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Write4U said:
I rather present the official reference entry than be called on a trivial detail.
Oh, that is not even wrong! Widen your horizons. Don't fall into the human semantics trap. All interactions are subjective to the objects in question. The objective rules of logical processing of information are universal. Nothing is exempt. I would suggest you give the logic a second reading to see the inevitable truth of that statement and its relevance in the processing of physically relative natural values and functions.

Logic is like double entry bookkeeping, the difference between both sides of the ledger is always zero.
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Huh!????
 
Quantum Quack said:
Why did humans evolve a hand with 4 fingers and a thumb when 3 fingers and a thumb would suffice?
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Three fingers would not suffice. Five do.
You'll need to go back a while in the evolution of mammals. Five fingers are a reduction in original number of digits and proved to be sufficient for precise eye-hand control.
Now, a team of scientists led by James Sharpe from the Centre for Genomic Regulation in Barcelona has discovered that these events are orchestrated by three molecules. They mark out zones in the embryonic hand where fingers will grow, and the spaces in between that are destined to die. Without this trinity, pianos and keyboards wouldn’t exist, jazz hands would be jazz palms, and giving someone the finger would be impossible.
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It looked like these were the molecules the team was searching for—not a pair, as Turing suggested, but a trinity. To confirm this, they created a simulation of a growing limb bud and showed that Sox9, Bmp and Wnt can organise themselves into a pattern of five stripes, by activating and blocking each other.
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https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/phenomena/2014/08/01/how-did-you-get-five-fingers/
 
Write4U said:
If you like pancakes better than anything else for breakfast, you are not choosing and it is pre-determined that you will select pancakes.
Nahhh..... it is more subtle than that.
You will always select in the direction of your greatest satisfaction, which taste is acquired by your prior experiences. You cannot ignore your past experiences, they are part of you and will determine your future choices at all times.

If you had a real choice, you would never be able to choose from between your two favorites. Your eventual selection will always be in the direction of greatest satisfaction (the thing you like best). That's a hard-wired deterministic imperative.

Nature does not make choices for you, your past experiences condition your future choices and then it is no longer from FW.
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Sure... but the thang is... of course its a deterministic universe an everthang is predetermined… but for free will an determinism to be compatible you need co-determinism = compatibilism… in which you ignore everthang that predetermined how you will thank an act… this way you can look at the thouts you have as the beginnin of you’r personal casual-chain which you can then label "free-will".!!!

Understandin QQ’s diagram is the key to it all.!!!
 
cluelusshusbund said:
Understandin QQ’s diagram is the key to it all.!!!
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I understand QQ perspective. I used to think the same way. I just knew I had free will, how could I not have?
We have ability to choose, but presence or lack of motive does not allow us to choose different than what we choose.
 
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