Co-Determinism and the Reality of Free Will

[Write4U]

With out co-determination being considered the quality of freedom experienced would be considered illusionary.

You are proposing that co-determinism is a different form of determinism than determinism. Why?

Deterministic Causes and Effects always consist of sets of causalities resulting in a single or multiple effects.
The freedom experienced is relative to the observer, but never not deterministic.
Co-determinism is merely determinism.

Question; "is an optical illusion a result of free will?"

 

[Quantum Quack]

You are proposing that co-determinism is a different form of determinism than determinism. Why?

A stated repeatedly, self determination would be impossible with out it..
or
For a human to be self determined co-determinism is essential.
Co-determinism is in fact axiomatic and not normally needed to be explained ... but here at sciforums it appears to be other wise...

 

[Quantum Quack]

Question; "is an optical illusion a result of free will?"

is that associated with autotomy?

 

[iceaura]

Assuming that human activity is inside the realm of determinism, then assuming that different human activities have degrees of freedom is false.

No, it isn't. It's backed by observation.

You are proposing that co-determinism is a different form of determinism than determinism. Why?

Because he has accepted the assumption that in a deterministic universe only the supernatural has freedom, along with the standard stipulation that in such a universe the supernatural does not exist - so he needs an arena outside the deterministic universe, for any kind of "freedom" to exist.

 

[Quantum Quack]

No, it isn't. It's backed by observation.

Because he has accepted the assumption that in a deterministic universe only the supernatural has freedom, along with the standard stipulation that in such a universe the supernatural does not exist - so he needs an arena outside the deterministic universe, for any kind of "freedom" to exist.

Lying again to cover your own incompetence... really Ice you could do so much better....

 

[Write4U]

is that associated with autotomy?

The point is that even if you know its an optical illusion you cannot help but be fooled by the illusion.
You are unable to will yourself to see the true nature of the illusion. The brain , for all its flexibility, has very specific limitations which are purely deterministic of your response to mental stimulation.

 

[Quantum Quack]

The point is that even if you know its an optical illusion you cannot help but be fooled by the illusion.
You are unable to will yourself to see the true nature of the illusion.

Nobody is perfect....So...?

 

[Write4U]

Nobody is perfect....So...?

True, determinism works the same for all things, cause precedes and determines effect. Just because the effect may yield a different outcome for different people doesn't mean there is free will involved.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Ok...try this...
Because we learn how to we are able to co-operatively co-determine events with the help of the universe....
Is that any better?

 

[Write4U]

Ok...try this...
Because we learn how to we are able to co-operatively co-determine events with the help of the universe....
Is that any better?

No difference. Why do we want to learn in the first place?
What is "causing" us to seek learning? What is the motive behind the action?

Motive is always based on a deterministic causality, even if only a wish or desire.

Motive,
: something (as a need or desire) that causes a person to act.
Note: Motive is distinguished from intent or mens rea. Although motive is not an element of a crime, evidence of motive can be introduced to help establish intent.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/motive

Consider this. A person locked up in a sensory deprivation chamber will go mad from lack of mental stimulus.

If Free Will existed, one should be able to entertain oneself with imagination only, but that's not how it works. The imagination is stirred by a causality. No causality, no imagination, no free will.

But a persistent lack of causal stimulus will result in the deterministic onset of an undesired side-effect of gradual madness in an otherwise healthy mind.

Even madness (disorientation) is a deterministic result of a lack of causal stimulus.....

But ability for learning is a result of evolution (mutation). No free will there either.

Free Will is an illusion... ......There is only sensory Free Experience......

 

[Quantum Quack]

No difference. Why do we want to learn in the first place?
What is "causing" us to seek learning? What is the motive behind the action?

Motive is always based on a deterministic causality, even if only a wish or desire.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/motive

Consider this. A person locked up in a sensory deprivation chamber will go mad from lack of mental stimulus.

If Free Will existed, one should be able to entertain oneself with imagination only, but that's not how it works. The imagination is stirred by a causality. No causality, no imagination, no free will.

But a persistent lack of causal stimulus will result in the deterministic onset of an undesired side-effect of gradual madness in an otherwise healthy mind.

Even madness (disorientation) is a deterministic result of a lack of causal stimulus.....

But ability for learning is a result of evolution (mutation). No free will there either.

Free Will is an illusion... ......There is only sensory Free Experience......

you are getting there but still have a way to go...
try this,
The universe predetermined that humans evolved the motivation and desire to learn how to self determine.


and freewill is an illusion only to those who believe that freedom is material, tangible and not a quality or value.

I suppose you think that energy is material as well?

Is energy an illusion?

 

[Write4U]

you are getting there but still have a way to go...
try this,
The universe predetermined that humans evolved the motivation and desire to learn how to self determine.

I believe there is a minor misunderstanding in regard to the term pre-determined.
The Universe does not pre-determine anything. That map cannot be drawn until the instant before physical explication in reality. Until that time any future event is merely a potential within a range of probability.

and freewill is an illusion only to those who believe that freedom is material, tangible and not a quality or value.

The quality or value of a pattern is already implicated in the unrealized potential, but only becomes expressed and observable in physical reality at time of materialization into observable patterns.

I suppose you think that energy is material as well? Is energy an illusion?

AFAIK, "energy" is an effect from a set of dynamic imperatives, most likely caused by a dynamic spacetime environment.

Energy is the ability to do work
Energy comes in different forms:

• Heat (thermal)
• Light (radiant)
• Motion (kinetic)
• Electrical
• Chemical
• Nuclear energy
• Gravitational

• https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/index.php?page=about_home

But energy is purely chaotic until it is used to perform work at which time each form of energy is strictly bound by the mathematics associated with all those dynamic forces and their expression is purely deterministic and pre-dictable.

This is evident throughout the universe.
All the above "effects" have been identified, causally qualified, codified, and symbolized as equations of universal "deterministic forces".

But at no time is any consciousness or free will involved. All physical expressions from the above list are always effects of prior cause, the definition of "determinism". None of them depend on FW decision making. None of them can do other than what is mathematically permissible in their "fields" of existence.

As Bohm so logically concluded that there exists an ascending hierarchy of orders, beginning with pure chaotic energy, but with a potential physical ability to form a near infinite number of future Implicate potential orders, with each prior order being necessary for the expression of the next higher rung in the hierarchy, the mathematical order of deterministic chronology into repeating patterns, from the very subtle to gross expression in reality.

 

[Quantum Quack]

I believe there is a minor misunderstanding in regard to the term pre-determined.
The Universe does not pre-determine anything. That map cannot be drawn until the instant before physical explication in reality. Until that time any future event is merely a potential within a range of probability.
The quality or value of a pattern is already implicated of the unrealized potential, but only becomes expressed and observable in physical reality at time of realization. AFAIK, "energy" is an effect from a set of dynamic imperatives, most likely caused by a dynamic spacetime environment.

• https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/index.php?page=about_home

But energy is purely chaotic until it is used to perform work at which time each form of energy is strictly bound by the mathematics associated with all those dynamic forces and their expression is purely deterministic and pre-dictable.

This is evident throughout the universe.
All the above "effects" have been identified, causally qualified, codified, and symbolized as equations of universal "deterministic forces".

But at no time is any consciousness or free will involved. All physical expressions from the above list are always effects of prior cause, the definition of "determinism". None of them depend on FW decision making. None of them can do other than what is mathematically permissible in their "fields" of existence.

As Bohm so logically concluded that there exists a descending hierarchy of orders, beginning with pure chaotic energy, but with a potential physical ability to form a near infinite number of future Implicate potential orders, with each prior order being necessary for the expression of the next lower hierarchy, the mathematical order of deterministic chronology into repeating patterns, from the very subtle to gross expression in reality.

ok...try this then let's drop the predetermined bit... for a moment...
The universe determines that humans evolved the ability to self determine...
You know when the butterfly flapped it's wings the eventual outcome was that humans evolved to learn how to self determine....

I noticed how you avoided the issue of tangible vs intangible.
is potential an illusion?

is the potential to evolve in to an ability to self determine an illusion?

Is energy an illusion or supernatural as Ice might suggest...?

 

[Write4U]

What you are describing is compatibilism, and I don't want to discount compatibilism as a possible "flexible aspect" to determinism, depending on local conditions and available potentials.

But that would not be "expressions of free will", but a certain "freedom of expression", dependent on available potentials.
H2O has three freedoms of expression; Gaseous, Liquid, Solid, dependent on temperature. But it does not have the free will to resist the causal potentials which determine what pattern H2O must assume as dictated by the environment.

Maybe it is as simple as this;

Assuming the validity of Bell's theorem, any deterministic hidden-variable theory that is consistent with quantum mechanics would have to be non-local, maintaining the existence of instantaneous or faster-than-light relations (correlations) between physically separated entities.

The currently best-known hidden-variable theory, the "causal" interpretation of the physicist and philosopher David Bohm, originally published in 1952, is a non-local hidden-variable theory. Bohm unknowingly rediscovered (and extended) the idea that Louis de Broglie had proposed in 1927 (and abandoned) – hence this theory is commonly called "de Broglie-Bohm theory".

In Bohm's interpretation, the (non-local) quantum potential constitutes an implicate (hidden) order which organizes a particle, and which may itself be the result of yet a further implicate order: a superimplicate order which organizes a field.

Nowadays Bohm's theory is considered to be one of many interpretations of quantum mechanics which give a realist interpretation, and not merely a positivistic one, to quantum-mechanical calculations. Some consider it the simplest theory to explain quantum phenomena.

Nevertheless, it is a hidden-variable theory, and necessarily so.[25] The major reference for Bohm's theory today is his book with Basil Hiley, published posthumously.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden-variable_theory#Bohm's_hidden-variable_theory

 

[Quantum Quack]

What you are describing is compatibilism,

Maybe so, it's huge field of thought and no doubt others have considered as I am.
However what compatibilist fail to recognize, from what little I have read, is that:

• Humans have been predetermined to learn how to determine for them selves.
• There are in fact at least two determiners in this universe.
  • 1/ the universe ( aka butterfly) and
    
  • 2/ the human.

• Because there are at least two (pre)determiners, co-determination is the only solution.

Compatibilists apply them selves to a failed fatalist position, granting a fatalists undue credibility.
Co-determination doesn't need secular or religious fatalism to justify it's reality.
It is based purely on sound logic and reasoning....and easily accommodates observed reality.

There is no need to qualify freedom as it is a self evident quality implicated in any act of self determination

 

[Write4U]

Maybe so, it's huge field of thought and no doubt others have considered as I am.
However what compatibilist fail to recognize, from what little I have read, is that:

• Humans have been predetermined to learn how to determine for them selves.
• There are in fact at least two determiners in this universe.
  • 1/ the universe ( aka butterfly) and
    
  • 2/ the human.

And in what way is that expressed? As the local human (and all other living organisms) determination or the Universal determination?

Because there are at least two (pre)determiners, co-determination is the only solution.

No that's wrong. What if the determiners are in conflict? You believe human determination is comparable with universal deterministic aspects?

Compatbilists apply them selves to a failed fatalist position, granting a fatalists undue credibility.

No, as Tegmark observes, if humans were just codes in a computer game but experienced everything in accordance to real physical laws, we wouldn't know the difference!

Co-determination doesn't need secular or religious fatalism to justify it's reality.
It is based purely on sound logic and reasoning....and easily accommodates observed reality.

Co-determination is just an aspect of determination. It's impossible to tell the difference, because it is a self-referential question.
Check out Bohm (hidden variables).

 

[iceaura]

But that would not be "expressions of free will", but a certain "freedom of expression", dependent on available potentials

These "expressions", when concomitant with willed action, would be (are) indistinguishable in any physical or theoretical respect from nonsupernatural freedom of will.

 

[Quantum Quack]

No that's wrong. What if the determiners are in conflict? You believe human determination is comparable with universal deterministic aspects?

That is why life is a struggle and always will be...
Do you think the learning we need to do comes with out conflict?
Of course it does, always involve conflict to various degrees...
The more successful ( by way of learning) you are of self (co)-determining, the less conflict you have, thus the degree of freedom experienced increases.

re: Buddhism 101 ~ life is suffering...

Co-determination is just an aspect of determination.

yep that is why it's called co-determinism... funny about that....

Co -determinism is an aspect of determinism .....sigh

or more properly put:
Determinism is an aspect of Co-determinism.

 

[iceaura]

Just because the effect may yield a different outcome for different people doesn't mean there is free will involved.

That decisions may be made differently by a given person - producing different willed actions - based on information not yet available to that person, means that there is some freedom of will in that system.
In the nonsupernatural sense, of course.

 

[Write4U]

These "expressions", when concomitant with willed action, would be (are) indistinguishable in any physical or theoretical respect from nonsupernatural freedom of will.

I agree. Whatever the human experience tells us about our relationship with universal imperatives it becomes indistuigishable from each other and we can create our own illusion of free will in our direct environment.

Note that the universe itself can be qualified as a quasi-intelligent organization of physical values and functions. The potential inherent in the geometry of spacetime.

It takes intelligence to discover and understand the universal common denominators . That's how we codified universal values and functions (potentials) in symbolic form.
But that does not guarantee our separation from universal laws, it makes us subject to universal common denominators and distribution of dynamic work.