Co-Determinism and the Reality of Free Will

[iceaura]

ok... how does it follow that ANY degree of freedom from that determinism is possible in the system you are referring to given that:

every decision, every dream, every thought, every choice is predetermined by that deterministic causation?

Again: freedom from natural law, already stipulated as deterministic, is not involved. Not necessary. Excluded. Nothing supernatural is included. Your assumption of necessarily supernatural freedom is not granted.

Meanwhile: being predetermined is irrelevant. The best example here - the simplest illustration I could come up with - is a driver approaching a traffic light. We went over that in great detail. If you missed it, please review the discussion.

And so we see that the matter of interest is the process by which all this internal human mental activity is determined, and in turn determines what follows. This is quite close to what might be called "self determination" - something you have considered.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Again: freedom from natural law, already stipulated as deterministic, is not involved. Not necessary. Excluded. Nothing supernatural is included. Your assumption of necessarily supernatural freedom is not granted.

Meanwhile: being predetermined is irrelevant. The best example here - the simplest illustration I could come up with - is a driver approaching a traffic light. We went over that in great detail. If you missed it, please review the discussion.

And so we see that the matter of interest is the process by which all this internal human mental activity is determined, and in turn determines what follows. This is quite close to what might be called "self determination" - something you have considered.

There is no need to detail the complex mental structuring needed to self determine. Once the core principles are established those details naturally follow.

Do you agree that the decision making you speak of is actually self determination?

 

[Quantum Quack]

Again: freedom from natural law, already stipulated as deterministic, is not involved. Not necessary. Excluded. Nothing supernatural is included. Your assumption of necessarily supernatural freedom is not granted.

Why do think i am including the supernatural when I definitively am not?
Why do you think that the supernatural is the only possible solution for a determinist or co-determinist such as myself?

 

[Sarkus]

I thought you were going to resort to an extreme distortion of the usual and generic definition and use of the terms "self determination".
You have proved my prediction correct

There are many definitions stated on the web all very similar and not one will describe self determination in a thermostat ... Google "Self determination" and do some research.

I have asked you to provide the definition as you understand it. Please do so. Given that you have a tendency to use words in an odd manner, you providing the definition as you intend it to be understood is surely the only way to be sure your comments are understood?

 

[Sarkus]

yep, it tells me your problem is impossible to resolve using logic or reasoning.

It is resolved, using both, by both the compatibilists and incompatibilists. It results in different understandings of the word "freedom". For one you end up with degrees of freedom, as found in thermostats, for the other you get the impossibility of anything actually being "free", since everything is predetermined from the outset. Both solutions use logic and reasoning, but both have different notions of what it means for something to be "free".

You are stuck in a compulsive rut that has no way out because the term freedom is an intangible and can not be adequately defined except by action relative to reaction which only reinforces the notion of non-freedom. A state of constant hope and self defeat, endlessly looping and going no where...

If you have an actual argument in here...?

Surprisingly common among people with significant intelligence. Sir Isaac Newton for example spent most of his later years obsessing over the "Whore of Babylon" end time predictions. (book of Revelations). Tesla with his energy transfer obsession, and so on...
It is an intellectual trap that has to be avoided at all cost if one wishes to stay sane.

Again, if you have a relevant argument to make...? Or is all you can do appeal to emotion, to consequence etc?

Relative Freedom is an intrinsic out come/aspect of self determination. The reason I am emphasizing "self determination" instead of "freedom" is because self determination is evidential, materially observed where as freedom is not.

And this is why your entire theory has zero chance of resolving what you think it resolves. Self-determination does not depend on one's notion of freedom. If one has a notion of freedom then "self-determination" is simply a process that has that notion within it. It does not in and of itself demonstrate the correctness of one notion over another.

Because a thermostat is NOT self determining, it has no freedom, relative or other wise, trivial or quala.

But it does have a freedom: to be on or to be off.

Self determination is not a given, it must be worked for, fought for, lived for and maintained. It defies oppression as a continuum of constant behavior.
A thermostat can not fight for it's freedom it can only do what it is directed to do and any "freedom" as you call it it is really just chaos or disorder personified.

Your equating of the two terms "freedom" and "self determination" seems to be the foundation of the confused mess you call a theory. It is why it doesn't do what you think it does, and why it is vacuous.

 

[Quantum Quack]

But it does have a freedom: to be on or to be off.

but only due to external causes not by it's own volition... It has no freedom. It is fully deterministic.
Can a thermostat refuse to switch off or on? Nope... it has no choice what so ever...

The notion that a thermostat has self determination because it does what it is obliged by design to do is absurd... can't you see that?

it has no self
it has no will
it has no choice
it has no freedom to self determine
it has no learning capacity to self determine
it has no ability to reject the inputs from it's environment.
It is a device that is purely deterministic...in nature....

 

[iceaura]

Why do think i am including the supernatural when I definitively am not?

You definitely are. Here - again:

therefore no freedom from said universal causation is present.
- - -
how does it follow that ANY degree of freedom from that determinism is possible in the system
- - -
The question for you is how does a compatibilist position avoid the necessary causations impacting on the actor, therefore the actors decisions?

and so forth. You are insisting that a freedom independent of causation, natural law, cause and effect, etc, be demonstrated, or no freedom exists. That is, you assume freedom to be supernatural, or not exist, in a deterministic universe.
Here's Sarkus, making the same assumption:

for the other you get the impossibility of anything actually being "free", since everything is predetermined from the outset.

It's crippling.

Do you agree that the decision making you speak of is actually self determination?

In the case of the driver approaching the light, it's a determination of the behavior of the car.

 

[Quantum Quack]

You definitely are. Here - again:
and so forth. You are insisting that a freedom independent of causation, natural law, cause and effect, etc, be demonstrated, or no freedom exists. That is, you assume freedom to be supernatural, or not exist, in a deterministic universe.
Here's Sarkus, making the same assumption:

It's crippling.

In the case of the driver approaching the light, it's a determination of the behavior of the car.

No i am not.
If the humans self determination is entirely deterministic then that self determination including it's inherant freedom is also.
The only thing crippling is your reliance on unchanging reasoning that demands blindly, that freedom must be supernatural in nature. It is not and never has been.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Q: How did humans acquire the ability to learn how to self determine?
A: It was predetermined by the deterministic universe that humans did so...
Therefore human self determination including the inherant freedom to do so is entirely deterministic.

It is really not that hard to grasp.

 

[iceaura]

The only thing crippling is your reliance on unchanging reasoning that demands blindly, that freedom must be supernatural in nature. It is not and never has been.

You aren't making sense.
These are your posts, not mine, asserting no freedom is present in a deterministic universe unless it is freedom from causation etc,

therefore no freedom from said universal causation is present.
- - -
how does it follow that ANY degree of freedom from that determinism is possible in the system
- - -
The question for you is how does a compatibilist position avoid the necessary causations impacting on the actor, therefore the actors decisions?

not mine. I flatly deny that assertion. I claim degrees of freedom in human decisions regardless of their necessary causations etc.

If the humans self determination is entirely deterministic then that self determination including it's inherant freedom is also.

Yep.
Now we need some idea of what "inherent freedom" refers to.

There is nothing about "self" determination that makes it different from any other in being subject to natural law, after all - the self being part of the universe - and you are on record as requiring freedom in such circumstances to be freedom from causation etc.

 

[Quantum Quack]

and you are on record as requiring freedom in such circumstances to be freedom from causation etc.

Am i ....?
Really?
Post a quote please....

 

[Quantum Quack]

"Freedom from causation" isn't even applicable to the supernatural.....sheesh!

 

[Quantum Quack]

Perhaps,
The freedom generated by learning to self determine is entirely deterministic.
Because that freedom is determined by the self determiner.


Hee heee...

 

[Sarkus]

It's crippling

Maybe for you it is. It is a different perspective, sure, but no more or less crippling than any other.

 

[Sarkus]

but only due to external causes not by it's own volition... It has no freedom. It is fully deterministic.

So is the "self". So are humans. We are talking about a deterministic universe, are we not? Do you now claim humans, the will, to sit outside that?

Can a thermostat refuse to switch off or on? Nope... it has no choice what so ever...

That's a matter of complexity, not the nature of the freedom within. A thermostat can not also add numbers like a calculator.

The notion that a thermostat has self determination because it does what it is obliged by design to do is absurd... can't you see that?

I never said that it does have self-determination. I am waiting for you to provide a working definition so that I can be clear what you understand by the term. Please provide it.

it has no self
it has no will
it has no choice

All matters of complexity and nothing to do with the nature of freedom... unless you can show otherwise?

it has no freedom to self determine

Didn't you equate self-determine with freedom? Aren't you therefore saying that it has no freedom to be free?

it has no learning capacity to self determine
it has no ability to reject the inputs from it's environment.

Matters of compplexity, not the nature of the freedom involved.

It is a device that is purely deterministic...in nature....

As are humans. Or are you putting humanity, or at least the will, outside of the deterministic universe? Are you suggesting that the will, or humans entirely, are indeterministic?

 

[Quantum Quack]

So is the "self". So are humans. We are talking about a deterministic universe, are we not? Do you now claim humans, the will, to sit outside that?
That's a matter of complexity, not the nature of the freedom within. A thermostat can not also add numbers like a calculator.
I never said that it does have self-determination. I am waiting for you to provide a working definition so that I can be clear what you understand by the term. Please provide it.
All matters of complexity and nothing to do with the nature of freedom... unless you can show otherwise?
Didn't you equate self-determine with freedom? Aren't you therefore saying that it has no freedom to be free?
Matters of compplexity, not the nature of the freedom involved.
As are humans. Or are you putting humanity, or at least the will, outside of the deterministic universe? Are you suggesting that the will, or humans entirely, are indeterministic?

The freedom generated by learning to self determine is entirely deterministic.
Because that freedom is determined by the self determiner.

 

[iceaura]

Am i ....?
Really?
Post a quote please.

Already posted three from this thread - just above, twice - second time at your request, with the key phrases bolded. How many times do you need this posted?

"Freedom from causation" isn't even applicable to the supernatural.....sheesh!

Freedom from the universal causation that determines everything else, the entire natural world - your post.
That is supernatural. That is what the label "supernatural" refers to. The language is English.

Maybe for you it is.

You are the one who has ended up posting that the degrees of freedom in a thermostat circuit have the same "nature" as those in a human decision, that capabilities which are not going to be used at a given moment in the future do not now and never "actually" existed, and so forth.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Already posted three from this thread - just above, twice - second time at your request, with the key phrases bolded. How many times do you need this posted?

Freedom from the universal causation that determines everything else, the entire natural world - your post.
That is supernatural. That is what the label "supernatural" refers to. The language is English.

You are the one who has ended up posting that the degrees of freedom in a thermostat circuit have the same "nature" as those in a human decision, that capabilities which are not going to be used at a given moment in the future do not now and never "actually" existed, and so forth.

I am going to let you think about what you have posted for awhile. Perhaps read the OP and the rest of my posts and later we can continue this rather interesting discussion.

 

[iceaura]

I am going to let you think about what you have posted for awhile.

It's been a few years now, in this rodeo - don't wait up.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Freedom from the universal causation that determines everything else, the entire natural world - your post.
That is supernatural. That is what the label "supernatural" refers to. The language is English.

I'll ask you for a second time... to post a quote that supports your claim ....and yes the language is in fact English...
I just want to confirm how you always resort to lies when your use of logic is being tested,,,,
( this is the 3rd occasion in the last 6 months)