Co-Determinism and the Reality of Free Will

[Quantum Quack]

So much has been written over thousands of years about the conundrum invoked when considering a deterministic universe and how Humans can demonstrate decisions and choice making that appears to be in-determined by that deterministic universe, that they have freedom to choose when simple logic will strongly suggest that any choice taken will in fact be predetermined and that any alternative choices are in fact an illusion, a deception that affords us the luxury of believing in our individual autonomy. That we as are deluded and that determinists theory is rock solid case and effect logic.

I actually do not dispute the basic premise of cause and effect but would like to suggest that to resolve the issue of in-determinism that freewill invokes can easily and surprisingly be achieved by understanding that one effect can have many causes and how that relates to the self deterministic nature of the human will.

Arguments:

1. Freewill: For freewill to be real the universe must be indeterminate and cause and effect is not real.
   1. We know that the universe is indeed deterministic, that things happen due to cause and effect and in absolute terms this leads logically to all events being predetermined.
2. Cause and Effect: For cause and effect to be real, freewill must be an illusion.
   1. This is because the Determinist will sate that if everything is predetermined then any choice we think we have is an illusion and that all choices are predetermined.

Obviously argument 1 is invalid simply because the logic of cause and effect and observed evidence is overwhelmingly strong. If argument 1 is invalid then argument 2 must be valid.

However this leaves us with the very unpalatable outcome that states that freedom of thought, the persona and the responsibility that goes with it is an illusion. The "I" think therefore I am", Ergo sum is a fraud, because the "I" is just as much an illusion as any actions the "I" might take..

So this apparent impasse has been the prevailing issue for perhaps thousands of years. A seemingly irreconcilable conundrum, as self determination with it's attached responsibility ( culpability ) is evident in all human activity, except those who believe in predetermination leading to all sorts of problems.

Self determination is evident in all human activity​

Co-determinism.
For the sake of brevity let us assume for the moment that the Human being is self deterministic. And that he has genuine freewill. A commonly held proposition by most humans.
How do we deal with the issue of in-determinism in a deterministic universe?

By understanding that the relationship that humans have with the universe surrounding him is co-deterministic, a partnership of causation with said universe to generate a single event you can understand that the universe's determinism in conjunction with a free-willed self determining Human, does indeed create events that are fully determined by both Human and universe together simultaneously.

So on that basis free will does not violate the determinism of cause and effect as it is an active part of it.



Care to discuss?

 

[Capracus]

Co-determinism.
For the sake of brevity let us assume for the moment that the Human being is self deterministic. And that he has genuine freewill. A commonly held proposition by most humans.
How do we deal with the issue of in-determinism in a deterministic universe?

Belief in gods is a commonly held position by most humans, but such beliefs, just like your notion of self determinism, aren’t rational or consistent with scientific understanding.

By understanding that the relationship that humans have with the universe surrounding him is co-deterministic, a partnership of causation with said universe to generate a single event you can understand that the universe's determinism in conjunction with a free-willed self determining Human, does indeed create events that are fully determined by both Human and universe together simultaneously.

There already is a partnership between the universe and all of its elements, it’s called universal determinism, where the collective action of the whole determines the nature of the universe and its constituents.

So on that basis free will does not violate the determinism of cause and effect as it is an active part of it.

If humans exist in a determined universe, then any act of indeterminism is a violation of that principle. You’re assuming that determined universal elements aquire magical properties when they organize in human form, yet there is no logical reason to assume that to be the case. Human behavior is entirely consistent with the determinism that is evident in all other universal elements.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Belief in gods is a commonly held position by most humans, but such beliefs, just like your notion of self determinism, aren’t rational or consistent with scientific understanding.

According to who?
Psychiatry, psychology, medical sciences are all comfortable with the reality of self deterministic behavior in humans.
Not to mention the worlds law makers enforcers etc. Judges, Lawyers, police etc...
Please name one significant scientist, link as well if possible that has stated that self deterministic humans do not exist?

 

[Quantum Quack]

Belief in gods is a commonly held position by most humans, but such beliefs, just like your notion of self determinism, aren’t rational or consistent with scientific understanding.

It is interesting that you bring "God" up as the deterministic universe where freewill is an illusion, certainly must accept that human choices are determined by forces other than them selves, that determinists such as your self, are claiming that, as free will is an illusion, our choices are being determined for us.
Are you not evangelizing a higher power such as God being in control of our lives?
And yet suggest that freewill must involve religious sentiment...

Do you not see the contradiction in what you are saying?

 

[Quantum Quack]

I think most erudite thinkers would agree that there is a problem with both determinism and freewill co-existing. They would acknowledge that there appears to be no way past this impasse, perhaps for 3000 years or so this has been the case.
Co-determination and the understanding of it I believe solves this impasse.

 

[Quantum Quack]

So regardless of the free choices made, "in-determinism" doesn't exist as all caused events are fully deterministic.

Thus free will is possible with out violating the principle of cause and effect ( determinism)

 

[Capracus]

According to who?
Psychiatry, psychology, medical sciences are all comfortable with the reality of self deterministic behavior in humans.
Not to mention the worlds law makers enforcers etc. Judges, Lawyers, police etc...

Probably 90% of the people in the world are theists, and about 50% who are involved in the sciences are as well, so it’s not surprising that these people are culturally biased to irrationally also believe in human self determination.

Please name one significant scientist, link as well if possible that has stated that self deterministic humans do not exist?

If the moon, in the act of completing its eternal way around the earth, were gifted with self-consciousness, it would feel thoroughly convinced that it was traveling its way of its own accord on the strength of a resolution taken once and for all. So would a Being, endowed with higher insight and more perfect intelligence, watching man and his doings, smile about man's illusion that he was acting according to his own free will.

Albert Einstein
https://www.azquotes.com/author/4399-Albert_Einstein/tag/free-will

Though we feel we can choose what we do, our understanding of the molecular basis of biology shows that biological processes are governed by the laws of physics and chemistry and therefore are as determined as the orbits of the planets.

Stephen Hawking
https://www.azquotes.com/quote/529847

It is interesting that you bring "God" up as the deterministic universe where freewill is an illusion, certainly must accept that human choices are determined by forces other than them selves, that determinists such as your self, are claiming that, as free will is an illusion, our choices are being determined for us.
Are you not evangelizing a higher power such as God being in control of our lives?

I’m not aware of any prominent religions that give their gods dominance over the will of human beings. I don't assume that a higher power dictates human behavior, only that it is dictated by the same accepted power that dictates the behavior of everything else.

And yet suggest that freewill must involve religious sentiment...

I don’t suggest that free will is necessarily a religious sentiment, but that it takes the same irrational frame of mind to accept it.

So regardless of the free choices made, "in-determinism" doesn't exist as all caused events are fully deterministic.
Thus free will is possible with out violating the principle of cause and effect ( determinism)

You imagine an exemption from a deterministic universe, therefore it exists? That’s nonsense.

 

[Quantum Quack]

You imagine an exemption from a deterministic universe, therefore it exists? That’s nonsense.

You claim I am suggesting an exemption. Please support that claim.

How does co-determinism grant an exemption from determinism?

If the moon, in the act of completing its eternal way around the earth, were gifted with self-consciousness, it would feel thoroughly convinced that it was traveling its way of its own accord on the strength of a resolution taken once and for all. So would a Being, endowed with higher insight and more perfect intelligence, watching man and his doings, smile about man's illusion that he was acting according to his own free will.

Albert Einstein
https://www.azquotes.com/author/4399-Albert_Einstein/tag/free-will

what being of higher insight is he referring to?

Are you claiming that link supports your case?

Though we feel we can choose what we do, our understanding of the molecular basis of biology shows that biological processes are governed by the laws of physics and chemistry and therefore are as determined as the orbits of the planets.

Stephen Hawking
https://www.azquotes.com/quote/529847

So biology has it's physics... so what?

Are you claiming that link supports your case?

 

[Quantum Quack]

You imagine an exemption from a deterministic universe, therefore it exists? That’s nonsense.

from the other thread....
ok can I ask you two very straight forwards question?

1. Why do you believe that only one possible outcome of an infinite number of alternative outcomes is predetermined? ( According to determinism there are literally an infinite number of predetermined events happening simultaneously at any give moment)
   
2. If all possible choices are predetermined, how does that effect your exclusion of a person having freedom to choice between all possible predetermined choices?

I look forward to your response...

 

[Capracus]

You claim I am suggesting an exemption. Please support that claim.

How does co-determinism grant an exemption from determinism?

You proposed a universe where everything except the human being is subject to universal determinism. That’s giving humans an exemption.

what being of higher insight is he referring to?

Beings unlike yourself that have sufficient logic and intelligence to see the universal determined nature of our existence.

Are you claiming that link supports your case?

You think?

So biology has it's physics... so what?

Are you not a biological entity that is subject to that determined physics?

Are you claiming that link supports your case?

You asked for a prominent scientist who disavows self determination. I would say that Mr. Hawking quacks like a deterministic duck.

Why do you believe that only one possible outcome of an infinite number of alternative outcomes is predetermined? ( According to determinism there are literally an infinite number of predetermined events happening simultaneously at any give moment)

Determinism implies that only one outcome is possible for a given circumstance. While there are infinite circumstances constantly occurring, each unique circumstance will have only one outcome.

If all possible choices are predetermined, how does that effect your exclusion of a person having freedom to choice between all possible predetermined choices?

No one has the option of having all possible choices. The only option anyone has at any point is that which the universe allows for that given instant.

 

[Quantum Quack]

You proposed a universe where everything except the human being is subject to universal determinism. That’s giving humans an exemption.

no I didn't.
show where? please?

Beings unlike yourself that have sufficient logic and intelligence to see the universal determined nature of our existence.

oh please..... and the rest is even worse....

No one has the option of having all possible choices. The only option anyone has at any point is that which the universe allows for that given instant.

you mean God don't you....not universe....I mean, how can a universe allow anything?

So we have to assume from your posts that you believe religiously in Universal determinism that allows only one choice for us puny humans. A de-facto God. An all persuasive determiner of all things humans think and do.
Go on admit it.... you are attempting to prove God exists aren't you?

OK... enough...

As I said in the other thread if you wish to argue an "allowing higher power", then the religion forum is the one to do it in.

Something you can take with you to the religion forum:
If God does indeed exist he works by inspiring people not controlling them...it is only humans that seek to control....

 

[TheFrogger]

"Free-will," is an illusion. If something, "will" then that is determined by definition. There are only two ways to know what, "will." To be able to, "see the future," or to have been in the future, and travel into the past.

Neither can change what, "will." What, "will" is determined by definition. There is nothing free about it.

 

[Capracus]

no I didn't.
show where? please?

oh please..... and the rest is even worse....

"So would a Being, endowed with higher insight and more perfect intelligence, watching man and his doings, smile about man's illusion that he was acting according to his own free will."

So how would you interpret the above quote by Einstein?

you mean God don't you....not universe....I mean, how can a universe allow anything?

Yes, how can a universe allow you to fall when you step of the roof of a ten story building.

So we have to assume from your posts that you believe religiously in Universal determinism that allows only one choice for us puny humans. A de-facto God. An all persuasive determiner of all things humans think and do.
Go on admit it.... you are attempting to prove God exists aren't you?

No, I logically assume that natural law governs all universal elements, which includes those that comprise you and me. You on the other hand assume that you have what amounts to a divine exemption from that natural law, and thus appear to be assuming a some sort of divine intervention.

OK... enough...

As I said in the other thread if you wish to argue an "allowing higher power", then the religion forum is the one to do it in.

Like I said before, I’m not arguing for a higher power, only the one we all agree is determining the the action of our reality. You though are arguing for a power that has no demonstrative basis in our reality, and characteristically would be more fitting for the religion forum.

Something you can take with you to the religion forum:

If God does indeed exist he works by inspiring people not controlling them...it is only humans that seek to control....

So now you claim to know the intentions of God. Aren't we theistically special.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Like I said before, I’m not arguing for a higher power, only the one we all agree is determining the the action of our reality.

eh? maybe you should re-word that a little....

 

[Quantum Quack]

No, I logically assume that natural law governs all universal elements, which includes those that comprise you and me. You on the other hand assume that you have what amounts to a divine exemption from that natural law, and thus appear to be assuming a some sort of divine intervention.

Does natural law include "life"?
What is "will"?
What separates/differentiates the living organic being from the non-organic "thing"?
What universal laws are at play?
Do you know?

 

[Quantum Quack]

Perhaps a little gedankan ( sci fiction) while I wait for my dinner to cook.

The reluctant Messiah

Captain Quirky Quale knew when he signed up for this mission that it was suicidal. He knew that there was no option other than the one fate had chosen. That he would be the only one to have a choice.

Coasting next to a massive asteroid in the Starship UNS Determination he was only moments away from completing his desperate mission.

The scientists were absolutely sure that this Asteroid, knocked out of it's field some 1.6 billion light years ago, was vectored to destroy itself in Humanities life source star, Sol.



The scientist also knew with absolute certainty that when the asteroid named "Freewill 101" finally ended it's 1.6 billion year journey by exploding in the sun that it would generate what was called a Barylium Time Anomaly, that would immediately wipe out our entire solar system, the milky way galaxy and eventually with in an estimated 60 minutes or so the entire universe.

His mission was simple, Save humanity, save the world and save the universe but to do so he has to die as his star ship was a flying bomb. He was like a suicide bomber with a vest loaded with 300 massive nuclear war heads.

Any how to cut a short story even shorter, Captain Quirky, stood alone on the bridge with his finger poised on a button that would start the interception ( * co-determination) and be completed in less than 30 seconds.

He knew he still had a choice, even with what was at stake. He had just got off the net talking to his estranged family and a couple of sort of friends and suffered some crazy bullying from people to his Twitter feed.
He wasn't sure humanity was worth saving and the BS he had to put up with, made him hesitate in his final decision.
He was dead either way but all he could think of were the bullies worth saving?

He could kick back and watch the asteroid plummet into the sun and watch the end of the universe form in a fit of sad revenge or he could do what he volunteered to do.

He had the power over life and death of billions in his hands and all he could think about were the jokers BS on his Twitter feed.

The universe had determined the trajectory of the Asteroid. It's ultimate end predetermined to be engulfed in a star called Sol. It was now up to Capt Quirky to either allow that pre-determination to continue or co-determine the asteroids fate and destroy it.​

Questions for the Determinist folk.

The very universe that according to determinism is in control has now got to deal with it's own possible extinction.

• If Quirky chooses to save the universe is that a predetermined choice?
• If he chooses to kick back and say bugger it and enjoy the fireworks is that a predetermined choice?
• Who has the choice, the universe or Quirky Quale captain of the Star ship UNS Determination
• Or are both alternatives predetermined and awaiting determination?

 

[Quantum Quack]

Perhaps a little gedanken ( sci fiction) while I wait for my dinner to cook.

The reluctant Messiah

Captain Quirky Quale knew when he signed up for this mission that it was suicidal. He knew that there was no option other than the one fate had chosen. That he would be the only one to have a choice.

Coasting next to a massive asteroid in the Starship UNS Determination he was only moments away from completing his desperate mission.

The scientists were absolutely sure that this Asteroid knocked out of it's field some 1.6 billion light years ago was vectored to destroy itself in Humanities life source star, Sol.



The scientist also knew with absolute certainty that when the asteroid named "Freewill 101" finally ended it's 1.6 billion year journey by exploding in the sun that it would generate what was called a Barylium Time Anomaly, that would immediately wipe out our entire solar system, the milky way galaxy and eventually with in an estimated 60 minutes or so the entire universe.

His mission was simple, Save humanity, save the world and save the universe but to do so he has to die as his star ship was a flying bomb. He was like a suicide bomber with a vest loaded with 300 massive nuclear war heads.

Any how to cut a short story even shorter, Captain Quirky, stood alone on the bridge with his finger poised on a button that would start the interception ( * co-determination) and be completed in less than 30 seconds.

He knew he still had a choice, even with what was at stake. He had just got off the net talking to his estranged family and a couple of sort of friends and suffered some crazy bullying from people to his Twitter feed.
He wasn't sure humanity was worth saving and the BS he had to put up with, made him hesitate in his final decision.
He was dead either way but all he could think of were the bullies worth saving?

He could kick back and watch the asteroid plummet into the sun and watch the end of the universe form in a fit of sad revenge or he could do what he volunteered to do.

He had the power over life and death of billions in his hands and all he could think about were the jokers BS on his Twitter feed.

The universe had determined the trajectory of the Asteroid. It's ultimate end predetermined to be engulfed in a star called Sol. It was now up to Capt Quircky to either allow that pre-determination to continue or co-determine the asteroids fate.

Questions for the Determinist folk.

The very universe that according to determinism is in control has now got to deal with it's own possible extinction.

If Quirky chooses to save the universe is that a predetermined choice?
If he chooses to kick back and say bugger it and enjoy the fireworks is that a predetermined choice?
Who has the choice, the universe or Quirky Quade captain of the Star ship UNS determination
Or are both alternatives predetermined and awaiting co-determination?



ahhh dinner.....

 

[Baldeee]

By understanding that the relationship that humans have with the universe surrounding him is co-deterministic, a partnership of causation with said universe to generate a single event you can understand that the universe's determinism in conjunction with a free-willed self determining Human, does indeed create events that are fully determined by both Human and universe together simultaneously.

So on that basis free will does not violate the determinism of cause and effect as it is an active part of it.

So your "co-determinism" is basically saying that humans are a cog in a watch?
And as a result both the cog and the watch "co-determine" things in a deterministic universe?
And you're saying that this allows free will?

 

[Quantum Quack]

So your "co-determinism" is basically saying that humans are a cog in a watch?
And as a result both the cog and the watch "co-determine" things in a deterministic universe?
And you're saying that this allows free will?

Not even close.
More like a starship captain who can freely and proactively co-determine the fate of a passive deterministic universe.

 

[Quantum Quack]

So your "co-determinism" is basically saying that humans are a cog in a watch?
And as a result both the cog and the watch "co-determine" things in a deterministic universe?
And you're saying that this allows free will?

For your level of comprehension skills, perhaps thinking of a self determining living, organic universe co-determining within a deterministic universe. It seemed to help my 12 year old grand son grasp the basic concepts.