closed mindedness is a waste

pavlosmarcos

It's all greek to me
Registered Senior Member
I often told by the religious that I an atheist am closed-minded, either in conversation, or reading them, call atheists closed-minded on forums and such, however nothing could be further from the truth, I sure the religious don’t understand what closed-minded actually is.
Closed-minded: having a mind firmly unreceptive to new ideas or arguments.
For some strange reason the religious seem to think, they are open-minded, strange isn't it.
just recently two elderly JW ladies knocked on my door, one lady handed me the watchtower, I said ladies I'm an atheist, and I have no believe in any of this, and handed it back, she said you've got to keep an open mind, I was tempted to, give her a piece of mind, for being so arrogant, as assume that I was closed mind all because I had no belief in her fantasy. Whereas I am open to all possibilities, and not single mindedly following one particular deity out of thousands, and thousands, it riles me.
Until now I have never called a religious person closed or single minded.
I wish they would think about what they're saying, but that would be too much to ask I think.

do you find either atheists or theist closed minded if so please elaborate, as I sincerely believe I'm right in my view on this, but also have a keen interest to see if I'm wrong.

thanks pavlos
 
I often told by the religious that I an atheist am closed-minded, either in conversation, or reading them, call atheists closed-minded on forums and such, however nothing could be further from the truth, I sure the religious don’t understand what closed-minded actually is.
Closed-minded: having a mind firmly unreceptive to new ideas or arguments.
For some strange reason the religious seem to think, they are open-minded, strange isn't it.
I noticed that too,theists accuse you of doing exactly what they do,its b/c
logic, reason just aint their strong point,..how could it,all they do is rely on is faith.
VitalOne and LeoVolant being fine example
 
I had a christian tell me once I shouldn't believe things I hear without evidence, needless to say I was at a loss for words.
 
People almost always choose atheism after dabbling a bit in religion and thinking about it.

There are, however, a few really crazy atheist crusaders/mujahidiin who spend countless hours and money actively attacking religion. I can understand their viewpoint ("religion is unnecessary and extremely dangerous, as history has shown countless times") but they do sometimes act like moon-howling crazies. I mean Dawkins, et al.

This is one of the primary reasons why I don't like labeling myself an atheist (that and the fact that atheism, like Satanism, is a religious statement as it is religion's antithesis, instead of its own independent world-view -- I don't want to be defined on the basis of what I don't do).
 
People almost always choose atheism after dabbling a bit in religion and thinking about it.
nobody chose atheism, it how we are born, we may revert back to it, but it certainly cannot be chosen.
You either are atheist or you chose to be something else, not vice versa
I am right, you are wrong.

The very definition of 'closed-mindedness'.
how so explain.
 
I believe that everyone is open minded until their own faith or belief is being criticized then they seem to pull back and close their ranks defending themselves instead of having those open minds they say they have.
 
Open or closed mindedness are meaningless concepts outside of specific evidence on a specific topic. The essence of science is being open to 'credibly' presented evidence and dismissing evidence that can't be substantiated. Dismissing Santa Claus, Jesus raising zombies from the dead, Leprechauns, etc. is not closed mindedness but rational thought. Being 'open minded' does not equate with 'willing to take a look at' non-credible evidence.
 
Your initial posts implies that you are so open-minded that you are CLOSED-minded to any possibility of actual truth.

(many) Atheists postulate that, because science shows the natural world to follow natural laws that are not broken, then nothing can logically break them.

The idea of closed-mindedness comes in when the atheist fails to fully acknowledge that there was a BEGINNING to the natural world(both logically and evidentiary(Big Bang)), therefore implying something behind it, something non-physical(since all physicality begins), not temporal(since time begins), and not material(since matter begins).

It is a failure to pay any discernable heed to the profundity of these observations, to claim that everything is and always was physical, that (in part) gets the atheist the title of "closed-minded" to the theist. The theist does not feel that he or she is being irrational, but acknowledging a central point of the our existence and indeed, the existence of everything. The question of the God of the Universe is infinitely more profound to the question of fairies or Santa Claus, an viewed in this light, any attempt to compare the two is absurd.

Beginnings to the physical imply a beyond of the physical. Just ask Einstein. Or Hawkins. Or any of these guys:

http://www.veritas-ucsb.org/library/origins/quotes/universe.html

If that fails, consulting your own common sense may work.
 
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The idea of closed-mindedness comes in when the atheist fails to fully acknowledge that there was a BEGINNING to the natural world(both logically and evidentiary(Big Bang))....
Unfortunately neither of these assumptions you make have yet been proven. You are assuming they are fundamental truths when in fact they are merely the mainstream understanding - and as we all know this is a flawed method of establishing truth.

...therefore implying something behind it, something non-physical(since all physicality begins), not temporal(since time begins), and not material(since matter begins).
These are not implied due to the unproven nature of the origin of the universe.

You would probably have us accept an eternal "god" but not an eternal universe?

It is a failure to pay any discernable heed to the profundity of these observations, to claim that everything is and always was physical, that (in part) gets the atheist the title of "closed-minded" to the theist.
And there was me thinking that the "profundity" of these observations is what leads science to investigate further than the theist position of stopping at "God did it".

You tell me who's more "close-minded".


The theist does not feel that he or she is being irrational, but acknowledging a central point of the our existence and indeed, the existence of everything.
Which science is still investigating and the theists stops at "God did it".

Wow - close-minded atheists indeed. Smack on the wrists for them.
 
Im a religious person and i am not unreceptive to new ideas. I listen to them, understand them, entertain them and argue about them. But that doesnt mean I will accept them just like that. On the other hand, my post where i replied to some misguided posts about islam has been deleted because i was "preaching". Now i dont know exactly where i was preaching and saying "Repent or go to Hell" or whatever, but apparently if someone says this verse promotes hatred or violence, I am not allowed to quote that verse in my reply and talk about it and where the misguided poster has gone wrong.
 
I often told by the religious that I an atheist am closed-minded, either in conversation, or reading them, call atheists closed-minded on forums and such, however nothing could be further from the truth, I sure the religious don’t understand what closed-minded actually is.
Closed-minded: having a mind firmly unreceptive to new ideas or arguments.

just recently two elderly JW ladies knocked on my door, one lady handed me the watchtower, I said ladies I'm an atheist, and I have no believe in any of this, and handed it back, she said you've got to keep an open mind

Summoning someone to "keep an open mind" can sometimes be a manipulative (but socially acceptable way) of saying "Buy what I'm selling".
And then if you don't buy what they're selling, they might call you "closed-minded", ie. "having a mind firmly unreceptive to new ideas or arguments". Which was of course true, in that particular instance.

But one must beware not to confuse single instances of "closed-mindedness" with general personality traits.

We're all "closed-minded" about some thing or other, and "open-minded" about some other thing or another.


To note that it is possible to be so open-minded that your brain falls out.
Obviously, not a good thing.
 
Sarkus,


Unfortunately neither of these assumptions you make have yet been proven. You are assuming they are fundamental truths when in fact they are merely the mainstream understanding - and as we all know this is a flawed method of establishing truth.

What other models do you propound that have even an ounce of the evidence that does the Big Bang theory?

You would probably have us accept an eternal "god" but not an eternal universe?

Well, yes. For, how can something physical be eternal? How can something occur before or after an infinite amount of time? For instance, if I told you I was going to give you a cookie after an infinite amount of time, would I ever give it to you? No! Well, that's the kind of question you're asking when you're postulating an infinite universe. How could anything actually happen in the course of an eternal or infinite period of time?

One needs to look at the long chain of cause and effect occurrences, the theory of the Big Bang that backs of the idea of a beginning, to see that physicality stops(as Hawking says). EVERYTHING comes into existence at the singularity.

Or, if there is something beyond our universe, such as what is postulated by the multi-verse theory(which has no evidence in it's favor), only pushes the problem of "where everything came from" back a step. Why did this realm come in to existence?

If you deny a transcendent cause, it seems that you HAVE to postulate that everything came in to being out of absolutely nothing. And this concept is unintelligible.

And there was me thinking that the "profundity" of these observations is what leads science to investigate further than the theist position of stopping at "God did it".

Science cannot measure anything that is not in the physical, observable world. Beyond that is completely untouchable by the human mind. And IF the BB IS the beginning of time, space, and matter, as many of the greatest scientists believe, then we literally CANNOT go beyond that first cause!
You tell me who's more "close-minded".


Which science is still investigating and the theists stops at "God did it",


Belief in God has nothing to do with a non-interest into the investigation of the universe. Theists don't want to "stop" where we can go further(in fact, as you probably know, some of the greatest scientists were theists attempting to figure out the world that God created). Rather, there is an acceptance that the human mind cannot penetrate beyond the confines of time and space.

As we are temporal beings.
 
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What other models do you propound that have even an ounce of the evidence that does the Big Bang theory?
This, perhaps?
Just Google "Big Bang" and "wrong" or "alternative" and you'll soon discover that the nice, clean explanation of the Big Bang, as understood by the majority of the population, is not quite so well understood after all, or indeed thought to be the nice, clean explanation it was once thought to be.
But this is not a physics or cosmology lecture.
But your argument is based on unproven assumptions. And as such is flawed.

Well, yes. For, how can something physical be eternal?
Ever heard of conservation of energy? Where have you ever seen energy destroyed / annihilated?

If you deny a transcendent cause, it seems that you HAVE to postulate that everything came in to being out of absolutely nothing. And this concept is unintelligible.
For close-minded people, perhaps?
Why does everything have to come into being out of "absolutely nothing" and not merely have existed eternally?
You are of course happy for your "transcendent cause" to have existed eternally - and to create matter from nothing - but not for that matter to have existed eternally.
:confused:


Science cannot measure anything that is not in the physical, observable world. Beyond that is completely untouchable by the human mind. And IF the BB IS the beginning of time, space, and matter, as many of the greatest scientists believe, then we literally CANNOT go beyond that first cause!
So you claim "God did it"?
And nice use of the word "IF" - as you now seemingly are less certain than you were when you assumed it as truth earlier.
Rather than the more rational "it happened"?

If we can not go back beyond the "first cause" (as you put it) then why oh why oh why assume that there was a "god" that did it?
Unless of course you are falling back on the indoctrination of your youth?
 
I often told by the religious that I an atheist am closed-minded, either in conversation, or reading them, call atheists closed-minded on forums and such, however nothing could be further from the truth, I sure the religious don’t understand what closed-minded actually is.
Closed-minded: having a mind firmly unreceptive to new ideas or arguments.
For some strange reason the religious seem to think, they are open-minded, strange isn't it.
just recently two elderly JW ladies knocked on my door, one lady handed me the watchtower, I said ladies I'm an atheist, and I have no believe in any of this, and handed it back, she said you've got to keep an open mind, I was tempted to, give her a piece of mind, for being so arrogant, as assume that I was closed mind all because I had no belief in her fantasy. Whereas I am open to all possibilities, and not single mindedly following one particular deity out of thousands, and thousands, it riles me.
Until now I have never called a religious person closed or single minded.
I wish they would think about what they're saying, but that would be too much to ask I think.

do you find either atheists or theist closed minded if so please elaborate, as I sincerely believe I'm right in my view on this, but also have a keen interest to see if I'm wrong.

thanks pavlos

even a little bit of rudimentary investigation can reveal "close mindedness" in both camps of atheism and theism - IOW you can find fanatical theists and fanatical atheists, both of whom have gone to extreme absences of reason (ie killing people for their "thought crimes")

:shrug:
 
This, perhaps?
Just Google "Big Bang" and "wrong" or "alternative" and you'll soon discover that the nice, clean explanation of the Big Bang, as understood by the majority of the population, is not quite so well understood after all, or indeed thought to be the nice, clean explanation it was once thought to be.
But this is not a physics or cosmology lecture.
But your argument is based on unproven assumptions. And as such is flawed.
I'm aware that there are and have been a variety of alternative theories. The one you linked is a new version of the steady-state theory, with similar problems.

If you're interested in hearing the modern history of cosmological theory(which is basically one failed attempt after another to be rid of the BB theory and it's implications), and exactly why alternative theories to the Big Bang have failed within the scientific world, you may find the following audio links useful.

http://www.rfmedia.org/RF_audio_video/Defender_podcast/20040530CosmologicalArgumentPart4.mp3

http://www.rfmedia.org/RF_audio_video/Defender_podcast/20040606CosmologicalArgumentPart5.mp3



Ever heard of conservation of energy? Where have you ever seen energy destroyed / annihilated?
Absolutely I've heard of it. I haven't, of course, witnessed that. Only God has.

Many credible scientists affirm that the BB was the BEGINNING of space, time, and energy. You know that. You also know, deep down, that they have credible reasons for believing this. They're not idiots.

I would challenge you again to really try and come to terms with the idea of an eternal universe. Why it, instead of nothing?

How could matter be in a changeless state if it has never begun?

It has been noted by top mathematicians that the idea of an actual infinite is just that. An idea. There can be nothing in the real world that is actually infinite, as it is an abstract concept.

Simple questions such as, "If the universe is eternal, why didn't this moment happen sooner?" Or, "Why hasn't the universe yet descended into it's ultimate destruction?" highlight the problems with the issue of an infinite physical world. And again: If I promised to give you something, a cookie, after an infinite amount of time, would I ever give it to you? Of course not. Yet you can believe that events are occurring now in light of an infinite past.

The simple point is this: It makes no sense that a physical world could exist in its current state in time if there were an infinite amount of times prior in which this state could and should have occurred.




For close-minded people, perhaps?
Why does everything have to come into being out of "absolutely nothing" and not merely have existed eternally?
You are of course happy for your "transcendent cause" to have existed eternally - and to create matter from nothing - but not for that matter to have existed eternally.
:confused:

Well, there is no evidence for such a claim, in fact quite the opposite. I find it baffling to think that the universe is here "just because." The whole of science is predicated on finding out causes to effects, and it is ironic that so many are willing to stop at the ultimate cause - by postulating that there is none.

So you claim "God did it"?

So you claim "nothing did it?"

And nice use of the word "IF" - as you now seemingly are less certain than you were when you assumed it as truth earlier.
Rather than the more rational "it happened"?


The word was used for the sake of the argument, to get you(or anyone else reading) to entertain the idea(and I hope you have, instead of just trying to beat my arguments!).

As to your later sentence - I must reiterate a previous point. "It happened" is hardly rational, especially on the "scientific" mindset of finding CAUSES for happenings. That's exactly the kind of faith-based statement that you apparently want to stay away from. But you can't. At the end of the day, you either have to believe that the universe "is just here" without giving heed to a cause, which is basely unscientific, or acknowledge that the universe has a beginning. As the scientific data suggests.

Also, you used the statement "It happened" incorrectly, as that implies a beginning to this hypothetical eternal universe. The correct statement would be, "It just is", as you're postulating that the universe has no starting point.

No beginning, no end.

Despite the data that all causes and effects rejoin at a single point.

Despite the fact that this belief puts faith in a mathematical abstraction.

Despite the fact that saying "it just is" is about the most unscientific statement you can make.

Science doesn't explain eternity. Naturalism fails abysmally at this point. It cannot delve into matters of timelessness, as an actual eternity would imply.

We are products of the eternal, Sarkus. There indeed exists an entity that has no beginning and no end - we are all privy to that knowledge. For "some reason" we have a conception of eternity - and a yearning for it - despite our utter inability to grasp how it can exist.

If we can not go back beyond the "first cause" (as you put it) then why oh why oh why assume that there was a "god" that did it?
Unless of course you are falling back on the indoctrination of your youth?

Because, if we cannot go beyond the first cause, it is because it is not physical(wherein it would not really be the first cause, because something physical exists outside of it). If it is not physical, there is a logical inference to make: to the metaphysical.

Finally, I don't understand how your last statement, or similar statements made by atheists, are meant to have any validity on a grand scale. There are countless cases of people, many absolutely brilliant(not that I believe that truly matters - but I find it funny that many atheists like to categorize theists as irrational or stupid when some of the most brilliant minds of past and present were of theist, particularly Christian, persuasion) who, though not raised in a religious atmosphere, become impassioned believers.

Once you account for the multitude of people like this you may realize that, although religious upbringing assuredly has an effect on the beliefs of many, the point is null as a theory for belief as a whole.


An open mind may want to investigate exactly why these people(brilliant and not-so brilliant alike!) were converted - in spite of lacking your assumed predetermining factor for belief.
 
being religious in the midst of the reign of persons like stalin and mao tended to greatly reduce your life expectancy
I ask for links, and you give me communist despots, links man, links to this,
you can find fanatical theists and fanatical atheists, both of whom have gone to extreme absences of reason (ie killing people for their "thought crimes"
how do you know they were atheist just because they were despots it doesn't follow that they must be atheists, just because they were communist it doesn't follow that they must be atheists.
you are making a huge assumptive leap here.

so could you please supply links to "fanatical" ? atheists that kill people for there beliefs.
 
I ask for links, and you give me communist despots, links man, links to this, how do you know they were atheist just because they were despots it doesn't follow that they must be atheists, just because they were communist it doesn't follow that they must be atheists.
you are making a huge assumptive leap here.

so could you please supply links to "fanatical" ? atheists that kill people for there beliefs.
once again, being overtly religious in stalin or mao's reign did tend to curtail one's life expectancy - probably due to their (fantatical) atheistic social policies
:shrug:
 
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