Climate-gate

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The NSIDC is a rather ideological group out of CO, but they are somewhat better than some outright junk outfit like the University of East Anglia, the IPCC, or the Climate Research Unit I'll grant you. They are often found to take great effort to present data in a specific way to communicate the desired message. They often make ridiculous claims themselves(like Dr. Mark Serreze and his 'death spiral of arctic ice' prediction just two years ago). I use a slightly different visual approach to data below from them. Amazingly it communicates a different message. But I'm not surprised to see 'the usual suspects' trotted out by the religious CAGW faithful either way.

If only those CAGW groups hadn't made claims like the arctic summer would be ice free by 2013(which the 'scientist' said was "too conservative" an estimate, it would be sooner), the Bering Strait would be open for good, 'death spiral' of arctic ice cover just two years ago, etc. Published all over the world these alarmist claims, and called 'science'. Nobel prizes were won, Oscars even! Held up as dramatic PROOF! International headlines!

Ice recovers? Not a peep.

That's what's convenient about conspiracy theories, the lack of evidence only PROVES the conspiracy. Ridiculous claim after ridiculous claim, innumerable predictions based on models, when not only are many found to be outright deliberately false, but the weather moves in the opposite direction of them all? THAT only proves CAGW all the more. I'm waiting for the first CAGW person to be bold enough to say the weather patterns are caused by Satan to 'test our faith in CAGW'. This stuff is a religion.

The issue has never been about fluctuations in the earth's temperatures and weather patterns. The issue has been the hysteria, ridiculous junk science, models, predictions, and claims of the CAGW 'religion'. I wasn't trying to make the claim this year proved anything, just that it completely disproved the claims, models, and junk science of the CAGW community. Now do you follow? BTW 30 years of anything is not significant as to global temperatures and weather patterns, though you seem to imply it is?

Always the context of such things that matters yes? Well maybe not in your mind, but in the minds of many people who make an effort to have a logical and balanced view of such things. The 'scientific' predictions, consistent and ever more alarming predictions of the CAGW groups is the context here, whether someone wants to try and pretend it isn't or not.

The sea ice cover right now is near or above the thirty year average for this time of year, depending on variations in sources. This shows a clear recovery trend of arctic ice cover that runs counter to every CAGW prediction and 'model' I've seen. So yes it's noteworthy. This is the second year in a row approaching average, this year is expected to surpass average, and it's the third year of the trend.

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As a former CAGW 'faithful believer' reporter has aptly stated:

"For the researchers, grant dollars and reputations are on the line. For reporters, global warming offers the thrill of covering The Biggest Story Ever Told, an appeal I could not resist. For politicians, it has offered an endless opportunity for grandstanding and power grabs. Convinced they are saving the earth—what could be more rewarding or important?—all three groups helped each other lose their minds" - A. Kam Napier, Ex-CAGW alarmist journalist

To quote NSIDC scientist Dr. Walt Meir about this event to which he responded via email:

"It’s a good question about the last time we’ve been above average. It was May 2001. April-May is the period when you’re starting to get into the peak of the melt season for the regions outside of the Arctic Ocean (Bering Sea, Hudson Bay) and the extent tends to have lower variability compared to other parts of the year as that thinner ice tends to go about the same time of year due to the solar heating. Even last year, we came fairly close to the average in early May.

Basically, it is due primarily to a lot more ice in the Bering Sea, as is evident in the images. The Bering ice is controlled largely by local winds, temperatures are not as important (though of course it still need to be at or at least near freezing to have ice an area for any length of time). We’ve seen a lot of northerly winds this winter in the Bering, particularly the last couple of weeks."

One need look no further than threads on this forum to see nonsense about an 'ice free Bering Strait' and all the catastrophic implications of such. Not a peep about "a lot more ice" in the Strait though.

That was my point above.
 
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mabuse said:
The sea ice cover right now is near or above the thirty year average for this time of year, depending on variations in sources. This shows a clear recovery trend of arctic ice cover that runs counter to every CAGW prediction and 'model' I've seen.
Uh, no, it doesn't.

It shows the third year in a row that the Exxon crowd has discovered a recovery of the sea ice in the Arctic based on its matching the " thirty year average for this date" or some such garbage stat. If you follow what happened next, in 2008 and 2009, you will understand why those claims were quietly set aside in those years around midsummer.

Which is beside the point. For all anyone knows the ice might even stick around this year, and so what? The point is that an occasional return to "average" - even above "average" - levels of sea ice is to be expected, regardless of any global warming. It doesn't contradict any predictions, at least not any of the professional and informed ones, because stuff is still expected to go up and down and fluctuate about the mean and all that sort of normal behavior in the new warm world just as it did in the old one.
beery said:
The AGW community has systemic procedural problems that have threatened the public's faith in the scientific process, REGARDLESS of the truth behind their claims.
The only threat to the public's "faith in the scientific process" I have seen in all this has come from an organized campaign of disinformation, slander, and lies from a political faction of the US power elite that finds science itself threatening to their agenda.

So what is the deal with this recurrent attempted bamboozling of the naive with every new dip and rise in the old familiar pattern? Do we still have a large fraction of the public, even on a forum like this, who do not understand these basic situations?
 
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The NSIDC is a rather ideological group out of CO, but they are somewhat better than some outright junk outfit like the University of East Anglia, the IPCC, or the Climate Research Unit I'll grant you. They are often found to take great effort to present data in a specific way to communicate the desired message. They often make ridiculous claims themselves(like Dr. Mark Serreze and his 'death spiral of arctic ice' prediction just two years ago). I use a slightly different visual approach to data below from them. Amazingly it communicates a different message. But I'm not surprised to see 'the usual suspects' trotted out by the religious CAGW faithful either way.
Rhetoric.

If only those CAGW groups hadn't made claims like the arctic summer would be ice free by 2013(which the 'scientist' said was "too conservative" an estimate, it would be sooner), the Bering Strait would be open for good, 'death spiral' of arctic ice cover just two years ago, etc. Published all over the world these alarmist claims, and called 'science'. Nobel prizes were won, Oscars even! Held up as dramatic PROOF! International headlines!

Ice recovers? Not a peep.

That's what's convenient about conspiracy theories, the lack of evidence only PROVES the conspiracy. Ridiculous claim after ridiculous claim, innumerable predictions based on models, when not only are many found to be outright deliberately false, but the weather moves in the opposite direction of them all? THAT only proves CAGW all the more. I'm waiting for the first CAGW person to be bold enough to say the weather patterns are caused by Satan to 'test our faith in CAGW'. This stuff is a religion.
Rhetoric.

The issue has never been about fluctuations in the earth's temperatures and weather patterns. The issue has been the hysteria, ridiculous junk science, models, predictions, and claims of the CAGW 'religion'. I wasn't trying to make the claim this year proved anything, just that it completely disproved the claims, models, and junk science of the CAGW community. Now do you follow? BTW 30 years of anything is not significant as to global temperatures and weather patterns, though you seem to imply it is?
Rhetoric, and something of a strawman. Anybody who gives even a cursory glance to the inline image I provided, and employs multiple neurons should be able to get the gist of why I made that comment.

What's funnier is that you then go on to contradict yourself, I be quoting the last sentence of this paragraph again.

Always the context of such things that matters yes? Well maybe not in your mind, but in the minds of many people who make an effort to have a logical and balanced view of such things. The 'scientific' predictions, consistent and ever more alarming predictions of the CAGW groups is the context here, whether someone wants to try and pretend it isn't or not.
Rhetoric, and a strawman fallacy, I'm fairly certain I've never promulgated alarmist predictions in relation to anthropogenic global warming, and I've even argued against some of them (and some of the scientific inaccuracies) so why should I care for your opinion here?

Do try and stick to science.

The sea ice cover right now is near or above the thirty year average for this time of year, depending on variations in sources. This shows a clear recovery trend of arctic ice cover that runs counter to every CAGW prediction and 'model' I've seen. So yes it's noteworthy. This is the second year in a row approaching average, this year is expected to surpass average, and it's the third year of the trend.
So having just said this:
BTW 30 years of anything is not significant as to global temperatures and weather patterns, though you seem to imply it is?
You're now trying to argue that three years of weather is more significant than 30 years of climate data?
That even though March '08 had a coverage of 15.23 million square miles, March '09 has a coverage of 15.16 million square miles, and March '10 has a coverage of 15.10 million square miles (three consecutive years of decrease, inspite of being elevated) that somehow, a decreasing trend represents a recovery?


Right, right, it's approaching the thirty year average, incidentally:
BTW 30 years of anything is not significant as to global temperatures and weather patterns, though you seem to imply it is?
Wow.
Awesome.
But take another look at those graphs.
In both cases, this year's ice cover is more than 1SD less than the long term average.
Also, I should point out that whether you realize it or not, you are actually being dishonest or misleading.
The top image is just the NSIDC image, I included a thumbnail of it inline in my post, and included a link to the full sized image.
The NSIDC data takes ice concentration into account for cells with >15% and <100% sea ice coverage - in otherwords, a cell that has an area of 450 km[su]2[/sup] and a coverage of 40% contibutes 191.25 km[sup]2[/sup] to the total. The bottom image, however, does not do this (yes, I took the time to verify your sources) a cell used in the bottom image, under the above conditions, would contribute 450km[sup]2[/sup].
The correct image to compare the NSIDC data to would be this one:

Which tells exactly the same story as the NSIDC data.

As a former CAGW 'faithful believer' reporter has aptly stated:

"For the researchers, grant dollars and reputations are on the line. For reporters, global warming offers the thrill of covering The Biggest Story Ever Told, an appeal I could not resist. For politicians, it has offered an endless opportunity for grandstanding and power grabs. Convinced they are saving the earth—what could be more rewarding or important?—all three groups helped each other lose their minds" - A. Kam Napier, Ex-CAGW alarmist journalist

To quote NSIDC scientist Dr. Walt Meir about this event to which he responded via email:

"It’s a good question about the last time we’ve been above average. It was May 2001. April-May is the period when you’re starting to get into the peak of the melt season for the regions outside of the Arctic Ocean (Bering Sea, Hudson Bay) and the extent tends to have lower variability compared to other parts of the year as that thinner ice tends to go about the same time of year due to the solar heating. Even last year, we came fairly close to the average in early May.

Basically, it is due primarily to a lot more ice in the Bering Sea, as is evident in the images. The Bering ice is controlled largely by local winds, temperatures are not as important (though of course it still need to be at or at least near freezing to have ice an area for any length of time). We’ve seen a lot of northerly winds this winter in the Bering, particularly the last couple of weeks."

One need look no further than threads on this forum to see nonsense about an 'ice free Bering Strait' and all the catastrophic implications of such. Not a peep about "a lot more ice" in the Strait though.

That was my point above.
More rhetoric.
Perhaps one day you should take the opportunity to lookup the effects that ENSO has on arctic sea ice extent.
The relationship is not simple, and does not lend itself easily to linear analysis, and ENSO is not the only factor, I've seen at least one paper that says that the strength of the response is strongest when the lag between various components is at certain values (3 years).
The ENSO curve is just the straight average of the NOAA multivariate indexes for each year.
The Sea Ice curve was derived from the NSIDC monthly data sets.
First I took the Annual averages (Jan-Dec).
Then I calculated the 1979-2000 average, as this is what the literature uses.
Then I subtracted the 1979-2000 average from the annual average to determine the annual average 'anomaly'.
Then I adjusted for the secular decrease shown in the data - this was done by fitting a linear trend to the data set, and subtracting out this secular trend, leaving the interannual variability unchanged (I'm fairly sure I can make the spreadsheet available to you, I have nothing to hide.
The end result is this graph:
picture.php

Which strongly suggests that the reason for the 'excess' ice is related to the state of ENSO, and possibly/probably the state of the NAO.

Oh yeah I almost forgot. May sea ice coverage shows the same secular decline that March, or the average does.
 
Ah... the strength of human faith in their religion. Only substitute 'Exxon' for 'Satan'. Oh and use the term 'rhetoric' synonymously with 'blasphemy' and tell yourself you're making a point.

All I know is I look at this graph and think 'see that slight dip there at the end? That's not a fluctuation that has happened many times before. That's the END OF THE WORLD!!!!'

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global.daily.ice.area.withtrend.jpg
 
Ah... the strength of human faith in their religion. Only substitute 'Exxon' for 'Satan'. Oh and use the term 'rhetoric' synonymously with 'blasphemy' and tell yourself you're making a point.
Grow up.
When you're ready to discuss science without rhetoric or ridicule, come find me.

All I know is I look at this graph and think 'see that slight dip there at the end? That's not a fluctuation that has happened many times before. That's the END OF THE WORLD!!!!
Strawman Hypothesis.
The graph you're showing shows the same trends as every other graph that's been discussed, however it is 'less obvious' because of the way the graph is presented, the volume of data on the graph, and the change in baseline when compared to the earlier graph.

Once again, you have presented something that is calculated differently and claimed that because it's different it invalidates everything.
 
Sounds pretty close to what I've been saying...
RJBeery said:
My point is that when you have an ulterior motive of course you're going to defend AGW and the CRU and Climategate even to the point of detriment to the integrity of the scientific process.
 
Photizo, the purpose of debating AGW is not whether it actually exists, it's about morally justifying (or preventing) a global redistribution of wealth along with a HUGE power grab for a few policy-makers. This is true whether the Environmentalists will admit it to themselves or not.

If any of you Environmentalists don't believe me, ask yourself if you are disappointed in any way by the idea that AGW does not pose a threat to the world. If we've averted what you genuinely thought was a disaster shouldn't everyone be rejoicing?
 
beery said:
If any of you Environmentalists don't believe me, ask yourself if you are disappointed in any way by the idea that AGW does not pose a threat to the world. If we've averted what you genuinely thought was a disaster shouldn't everyone be rejoicing?
If I'm following your argument there, you are asserting that the character flaws or mental habits of some AGW believers have some bearing on the likelihood of physical consequences from our huge and rapid boosting of the CO2 concentration in the atmosphere.

Sounds kind of magical. I don't believe in magic, in these matters.

As far as redistribution of wealth from CO2 boosting, that's been kind of obvious - Exxon made more money per year recently than any other economic entity in the history of the planet had ever made. The redistribution of wealth in the US has been dramatic in general, in consequence of current and related industrial practices and governance - the share of the wealth of that nation accumulated by its rich has risen to historic highs.
 
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Photizo, the purpose of debating AGW is not whether it actually exists, it's about morally justifying (or preventing) a global redistribution of wealth along with a HUGE power grab for a few policy-makers. This is true whether the Environmentalists will admit it to themselves or not.

Nonsense. You may have strong political feelings that influence your opinions; most scientists do not.

If any of you Environmentalists don't believe me, ask yourself if you are disappointed in any way by the idea that AGW does not pose a threat to the world. If we've averted what you genuinely thought was a disaster shouldn't everyone be rejoicing?

I never thought it posed a huge threat to the world. It will certainly change things. It is better to know the potential for problems before they become problems.

I have been disappointed in how immune to science some climate change deniers have become. Many do indeed stand to lose bigtime by admitting that the science is valid, but most do not. I think it has primarily to do with their politics; climate change has become a liberal vs conservative issue, and most conservatives do not want to "let the other side win," no matter what the science says.
 
billvon, it's naive to believe that scientists harbor no personal agendas, including (and possibly most notably) the pursuit of funding resources. Did you read the NASA report that Photizo linked to?
 
beery said:
billvon, it's naive to believe that scientists harbor no personal agendas, including (and possibly most notably) the pursuit of funding resources
Hence Exxon's and Koch's stable, small but loud, of pet mouthpieces for attacking people like (obvious example) Michael Mann.

Not the science, mind: the people.
 
billvon, it's naive to believe that scientists harbor no personal agendas, including (and possibly most notably) the pursuit of funding resources.

Of course they do, just as doctors, accountants, lawyers etc have personal agendas. The decent ones (i.e. most of them) do not let it interfere with their work.
 
From the Forbes Article:

Three themes are emerging from the newly released emails: (1) prominent scientists central to the global warming debate are taking measures to conceal rather than disseminate underlying data and discussions; (2) these scientists view global warming as a political “cause” rather than a balanced scientific inquiry and (3) many of these scientists frankly admit to each other that much of the science is weak and dependent on deliberate manipulation of facts and data.

But the writer is also putting his spin on it.

It's not that he's entierly wrong but a more rational stating of the facts might be more like:

Three themes are emerging from the newly released emails:
(1) prominent scientists central to the global warming debate are taking measures to conceal rather than disseminate underlying data and discussions, but this is typically not done for sinister reasons. They consider it their data that they took pains to collect and collate and they are going to get the grants based on publishing it. Protection of data is done for pretty much the same reason we typically encrypt data sent from our satellites.

(2) these scientists view global warming as a political “cause” because they think it's a serious problem and so tend to promote the more extreme views in order to get attention to the problem.

(3) many of these scientists frankly admit to each other that though some of the science is weak, much more of it is not and the interpretation that fits in with other data is sometimes dependent on ignoring some conflicting data. It's a chaotic systems and our full understanding of the climate system still has holes.
 
Adoucette, you're right that the explanation has a spin to it. Regardless, such spin is more acceptable in an opinion piece, but has no place in proper science. Climategate has done more to harm the public's faith in the scientific process than anything else, even if everything those scientists which under scrutiny say is ultimately true. You should be mature and detached enough to denounce their behavior yet continue to support their cause (if you indeed do).
 
Adoucette, you're right that the explanation has a spin to it. Regardless, such spin is more acceptable in an opinion piece, but has no place in proper science. Climategate has done more to harm the public's faith in the scientific process than anything else, even if everything those scientists which under scrutiny say is ultimately true. You should be mature and detached enough to denounce their behavior yet continue to support their cause (if you indeed do).

What I know is that the emails are from a relatively small group of scientists.

Extrapolating their sometimes bad behaviour, as if it applies to other scientists not associated with them, has no basis in fact.

Similarly, blowing out of proportion their sometimes ill chosen words, as if it taints more than their limited area of study is silly.

Good science stands on it's own.
Emails about it might tell you to look deeper, but in the end it's the science not the emails that will prevail.
 
This isn't a small group of randomly picked scientists. It includes the LEADERS IN THE FIELD to whom our governments pose questions about determining the future of society. These scientists should have NO PERSONAL OPINION on AGW or what to do about it in the same way that judges, prosecutors and police are expected to recuse themselves from cases in which they have a personal agenda. That is clearly not the case here.
 
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