Circumcised = Not a Christian?

SetiAlpha6

Come Let Us Reason Together
Valued Senior Member
Apparently, according to Paul in the verses below, if you are circumcised you cannot be a Christian. He seems to be even a little intense about it!

Galatians 5:2-3
2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

Is this true?

If so, should they not warn people about this and teach this truth in church? If false, shouldn't someone, perhaps, declare Paul to be a false prophet?

Just wondering.
 
Seems strange, if Jesus were Jewish, wouldn't he be circumcised?
 
It tends to reflect the Christian obsession with sexuality and genitalia. Much of which originated with Paul's unenlightened and biggotted view of sexuality and especially of women.

Circumcision certainly in ancient times and even largely today is a practical choice to assist with hygeine. That it became a differentiator of religious belief is quite bizarre. The implication here is that Christians are fundamantally more unhygenic than others. Why the heck would a god be in favor of such a condition?
 
Seems strange, if Jesus were Jewish, wouldn't he be circumcised?

Yes, I would think so, and so would almost every other male He preached to, even His own disciples. That would, perhaps, leave only the women as candidates for salvation. Virtually all of the men would have to keep the Law or be damned, which according to Paul is impossible, so they would all be damned to hell I guess.

Somebody better make something up quick!
 
So are Christians circumcised as a general rule? I know Jews are.
 
The whole circumcision thing is political for the Christians. I'll have to dig around, but among early Christian writings there are some bizarre assertions, including one that Christians are "circumcised in their hearts". My guess is that, since the Romans found religious circumcision just a bit strange, the Christians added this Jewish practice to their list of anti-identifications. The whole point was to convince Roman authorities to not worry about Christians because "we're not Jews!". Something like that. Some of those early writings are just hilarious. I think it was Ignatius of Antioch, though I'm not sure, who wrote that, essentially, "God must exist, else I am feeding myself to the lions for nothing." It never occurred to him that, yes, he was allowing himself to be executed for no good reason at all. Strange, indeed, what promises of an afterlife will do to a greedy soul.
 
The whole circumcision thing is political for the Christians. I'll have to dig around, but among early Christian writings there are some bizarre assertions, including one that Christians are "circumcised in their hearts". My guess is that, since the Romans found religious circumcision just a bit strange, the Christians added this Jewish practice to their list of anti-identifications. The whole point was to convince Roman authorities to not worry about Christians because "we're not Jews!". Something like that. Some of those early writings are just hilarious. I think it was Ignatius of Antioch, though I'm not sure, who wrote that, essentially, "God must exist, else I am feeding myself to the lions for nothing." It never occurred to him that, yes, he was allowing himself to be executed for no good reason at all. Strange, indeed, what promises of an afterlife will do to a greedy soul.
*************
M*W: Tiassa:

Glad I read your post before I answered. I agree with your political decision by the Romans. That really makes sense.

S.A.M.

According to the bible, Jesus was circumcised on the 8th day when M&J presented him to the temple. It's even a catholic holy day (reread Tiassa's post for clarification).

I shall offer another meaning (astro-theological, of course), and I think it's weird, so I don't blame any of you for thinking this is way out there:

The "covenant" with Abraham (let's say for 'a-t' purposes that Abraham represents the Sign of Aries, the first sign of the zodiac, and god (the sun) ordered Aries to 'circumcise' (make an 'round' incision to remove the foreskin) as representation of the cyclic zodiac. If this were possibly true, and it could be the true part of the myth, then no man should be circumcised. However, it does prove to be hygienically realistic. I've always tried to figure out the real meaning of the 'covenant' and the making of the myth.
 
I think the context is referring to someone who lets himself be circumcised in order to obey the Law of Moses. Since Christians are supposedly under a "new law" (which still retails some basic Mosaic ideas, such as love your neighbor as yourself), I guess "Paul" is saying that one shouldn't do anything to obey the law of Moses for righteousness. I'm not sure "Paul" was condemning all circumcision here, but rather condemning people who get circumcized in order to obey the Law of Moses. I could see it being interpreted as a blanket condemnation of circumcision though.
 
Ok but are Christians circumcised?


Yes, I would say that most of them indeed are, usually just after birth, and without their consent. At least in the U.S. they are.

That is from my own experience anyway.
 
I think the context is referring to someone who lets himself be circumcised in order to obey the Law of Moses. Since Christians are supposedly under a "new law" (which still retails some basic Mosaic ideas, such as love your neighbor as yourself), I guess "Paul" is saying that one shouldn't do anything to obey the law of Moses for righteousness. I'm not sure "Paul" was condemning all circumcision here, but rather condemning people who get circumcized in order to obey the Law of Moses. I could see it being interpreted as a blanket condemnation of circumcision though.


Then perhaps true Christians should go out and commit adultery whenever they want? Don't want to be legalistic about following the Law of Moses, Right?

This is not what I think; I am just trying, in vane, to make some sense out of this mess.
 
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...Galatians 5:2-3
2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law....

what is the whole law?

Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

I think that means, just to be circumcised isn't enough. You must obey everything (the whole law) or it all means nothing.
 
It's not hard to count the places where the New Testament contradicts itself. The point is that there was a division in the early church---some Jews thought that Jesus' teachings were meant solely for them, and Gentiles should be excluded. This was clearly not the case, because Jesus spent a long time preaching specifically to Gentiles.

If you read Acts (in stead of quoting random scriptures from places outside of their historical context), you'll see the debate about this in the early church.
 
It's not hard to count the places where the New Testament contradicts itself. The point is that there was a division in the early church---some Jews thought that Jesus' teachings were meant solely for them, and Gentiles should be excluded. This was clearly not the case, because Jesus spent a long time preaching specifically to Gentiles.

If you read Acts (in stead of quoting random scriptures from places outside of their historical context), you'll see the debate about this in the early church.


I will take a look! Thanks!
 
Circumcision certainly in ancient times and even largely today is a practical choice to assist with hygeine. That it became a differentiator of religious belief is quite bizarre. The implication here is that Christians are fundamantally more unhygenic than others. Why the heck would a god be in favor of such a condition?
This was in fact a major issue during the "Dark Ages." Christian Europe was an abysmally filthy place. Christians preached that immersion in water was unholy. Anyone who could swim was considered possessed, and people went their whole lives without taking a proper bath. The Romans had invented sewers but after the fall of the Empire the technology fell into disuse and sewage ran in the streets. At a time when Japanese cities paid government employees to clean the streets, a common practice in Europe was to run a herd of pigs through the city once a year to simply eat the garbage and redeposit it as pig drenn. The water was so impure that even in those unenlightened times no one dared to drink it. In fact it's been suggested that one reason for the intellectual backsliding during that era was that people were forced to drink beer and wine and were always buzzed. Although correlation does not prove causation, the Enlightenment coincided with the introduction of coffee from Ethiopia. :)

On a more sober note, one of the factors in the friction between Europe's Christian and Jewish communites was that the Jews seemed far less stricken by plagues. The reason of course was that the Jews regarded hygiene as a religious ritual. Apparently one could walk down the streets of the shtetl without covering one's nose with a perfume-drenched handkerchief.

So are Christians circumcised as a general rule? I know Jews are.
I corroborate the other post that spoke to this. In my sixty-odd years of unavoidable observation, I have seen very few uncircumcised American men. Almost all of them are black, a community in which Islam is far more prevalent than in mine.

Today, the role of circumcision in health is even stronger than ever. It's been discovered that uncircumcised men are about 20 times as likely to contract HIV as circumcised men, other factors being equal. A massive circumcision campaign is now under way in the countries of sub-Saharan Africa where the AIDS epidemic is causing the greatest grief.

I have no idea whether the assertion is true that circumcision decreases a man's sensitivity to sexual pleasure. I can't think of any way to test the hypothesis. In any case, since we circumcised men seem to have no trouble enjoying sex and reaching climax, I don't see the risk of HIV as being worth whatever the slight differential in pleasure might be.

The male chauvinist pigs who coined the euphemism "female circumcision" for clitoridectomy are full of drenn. Removing a woman's clitoris takes away virtually all of the nerves that transmit sexual stimulation, if not literally all of them, and results in a loss of ability to have orgasm in virtually all victims, if not literally all of them. It is a tool of repression, turning a woman from an equal partner in sex into a sex object. It is analogous to cutting off the head of a man's penis so he will spend the rest of his life without sexual release. This surgery should be mandatory for all men who advocate and perform clitoridectomies. At the very least it would stop this blighted group of retards from reproducing.

The effect of true male circumcision on sexuality is, to date, so small as to be unmeasurable objectively, whereas it has a tremendous, measurable, beneficial effect on health. It could actually save Africa from being ravaged by AIDS.
 
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