CIA chief admits waterboarding

[iceaura]

Not true. The CIA has obtained useful information that has broken up plots through the waterboarding of select individuals.

Allegedly. The CIA has negative credibility in this matter - what they say is less likely because they say it.

Dozens - probably hundreds - of people were tortured at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo: at Gitmo, at least, the CIA was involved. "Select individuals" my ass.

Besides: How much info have they destroyed, and how much have they lost in prevented opportunity for info, and how much info gathering time and expertise have they wasted chasing the kinds of garbage they claim to have obtained as "info" ? A good accounting includes the costs, not just the benefits.

The comparison is not with no info gathered, but with info gathered using better and more effective and less self-destructive means. And after that, the effects on a society of setting up its government with a clandestine torture agency can be tossed unto the scales.

The CIA was never very good at interrogation, it was never their area of training or expertise, and torturing has not improved their batting average if the crap they've proudly released is representative.

 

[Bells]

No, the gloves don't "come off". We are a civilized nation that is supposed to follow it's own laws.

That's the thing, isn't it? By torturing its detainees, the US has shown itself to be no better than leaders like Saddam, who did torture prisoners.

As a result, the US has now has no legitimate standing in criticising regimes who do use torture on their prisoners. The US has effectively made themselves pariah's in regards to human rights abuses.

 

[Echo3Romeo]

They're using waterboarding on demonic muslim terrorists who blow up innocent civilians, saw innocent people's heads off, and commit other atrocities. I think the terrorists got off way too easy.

You're not understanding the way this stuff works very well. Even if the subject is a "demonic muslim terrorist" it has no bearing on what techniques should and should not be allowed. The objective of an interrogation is intelligence gathering, not punishment. Anybody who acts otherwise is a really shitty interrogator, and their ass is going to get thrown in the brig when somebody up the chain catches wind of gratuitous abuse to sate some weird sadist bent.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

That's right. Waterboarding isn't incidental to lawful sanctions.

Provide citation that it isn't lawful sanctions, the Senate has not made it unlawful.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

No, the gloves don't "come off". We are a civilized nation that is supposed to follow it's own laws.

And under our own laws Waterboarding is not Illegal.

It has not been done so because the Senate Hasn't taken up the issue, and made it so.

 

[S.A.M.]

Isn't the US a signatory to the Geneva Convention?

And what about this?

Water boarding was designated as illegal by U.S. generals in Vietnam 40 years ago. A photograph that appeared in The Washington Post of a U.S. soldier involved in water boarding a North Vietnamese prisoner in 1968 led to that soldier's severe punishment.

"The soldier who participated in water torture in January 1968 was court-martialed within one month after the photos appeared in The Washington Post, and he was drummed out of the Army," recounted Darius Rejali, a political science professor at Reed College.

And this?

All nations that are signatory to the United Nations Convention Against Torture have agreed they are subject to the explicit prohibition on torture under any condition, and as such there exists no legal exception under this treaty. (The treaty states "No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.") Additionally, signatories of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights are bound to Article 5, which states, "No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."

United States

The United States has a historical record of regarding waterboarding as a crime, and has prosecuted individuals for the use of the practice in the past. In 1947, the United States prosecuted a Japanese military officer, Yukio Asano, for carrying out a form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian during World War II. Yukio Asano received a sentence of 15 years of hard labor.[31] The charges of Violation of the Laws and Customs of War against Asano also included "beating using hands, fists, club; kicking; burning using cigarettes; strapping on a stretcher head downward."[74]

In its 2005 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices, the U.S. Department of State formally recognized "submersion of the head in water" as torture in its examination of Tunisia's poor human rights record,[75] and critics of waterboarding draw parallels between the two techniques, citing the similar usage of water on the subject. On September 6, 2006, the U.S. Department of Defense released a revised Army Field Manual entitled Human Intelligence Collector Operations that prohibits the use of waterboarding by U.S. military personnel. The department adopted the manual amid widespread criticism of U.S. handling of prisoners in the War on Terrorism, and prohibits other practices in addition to waterboarding. The revised manual applies only to U.S. military personnel, and as such does not apply to the practices of the CIA.[76] However, under international law, violators of the laws of war are criminally liable under the command responsibility, and could still be prosecuted for war crimes.[77]

Or do you mean the White House has okayed waterboarding of US troops?

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Isn't the US a signatory to the Geneva Convention?

And what about this?



Or do you mean the White House has okayed waterboarding of US troops?

The act that you are talking about wasn't in compliance with regulations on interrogation of POWs, and the NVA
was a POW at the Time, and S.A.M. you have again just proven that the U.S. investigates, charges, brings to Trial, and convicts Troops that commit crime against the G.C. and IHL, if we did this to a individual that only waterboarded a POW, what do you think we did to any one collecting heads?

 

[pjdude1219]

And under our own laws Waterboarding is not Illegal.

It has not been done so because the Senate Hasn't taken up the issue, and made it so.

that not entirely true

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Isn't the US a signatory to the Geneva Convention?

And what about this?



And this?



Or do you mean the White House has okayed waterboarding of US troops?

In its 2005 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices, the U.S. Department of State formally recognized "submersion of the head in water" as torture

Doesn't happen in waterboarding, the head is not submersed, been there in survival school.

On September 6, 2006, the U.S. Department of Defense released a revised Army Field Manual entitled Human Intelligence Collector Operations that prohibits the use of waterboarding by U.S. military personnel. The department adopted the manual amid widespread criticism of U.S. handling of prisoners in the War on Terrorism, and prohibits other practices in addition to waterboarding. The revised manual applies only to U.S. military personnel, and as such does not apply to the practices of the CIA.

This applies to the Military, and they have complied with the rules, the Senate still hasn't taken up the Issue, and made it illegal for the Intelligence community in special circumstance, so it does appear that waterboarding is rare, and used for specific targets, in high threat situations.

 

[S.A.M.]

The people being waterboarded in Gitmo are not under US Military jurisdiction?

The Nazis thought it was legal to kill Jews and Poles. The international community obviously did not agree.

Are you saying the Nuremberg Trials were a mistake?

However, under international law, violators of the laws of war are criminally liable under the command responsibility, and could still be prosecuted for war crimes

UN Special Rapporteur on Torture Manfred Nowak sharply criticized the White House Wednesday for defending the use of waterboarding , calling the practice "absolutely unacceptable under international human rights law." Nowak's comments, as well as the White House defense of the interrogation technique, came after CIA Director Michael Hayden confirmed at a Tuesday Senate Intelligence Committee hearing that waterboarding had been used on three terror detainees

Would it be legal to try the US intelligence for crimes against humanity?

The Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 used the language of the Geneva Conventions to bar "cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment" of war on terror detainees.

The head of the CIA said Thursday it is uncertain whether the use of waterboarding, a form of simulated drowning widely condemned as torture, would be lawful if used today against Al-Qaeda detainees.

 

[shichimenshyo]

Would it be legal to try the US intelligence for crimes against humanity?

I would think that it would be yes, but thats the problem, its much harder to stand up to the bully then you may think.

 

[stretched]

BR

So has every other nation on earth, when it become in the best interest of said nations the gloves come off.

Oh. So that makes it OK.

From a nation whose president peppers his talk with constant reference to "FREEDOM" and "DEMOCRACY" and "HUMAN RIGHTS"!

Can you see how rotten this all is?
(No, denying it does not make it go away...)

 

[stretched]

BR

Doesn't happen in waterboarding, the head is not submersed, been there in survival school.

He he. So now you are an EXPERT are you? You are funny...

 

[John99]

I have been waterboarded, even when i was a child my brother waterboarded me. It is nothing compared to pulling out fingernails or cutting off of heads.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

The people being waterboarded in Gitmo are not under US Military jurisdiction?

Provide provable citation that any one at Gitmo was waterboarded, so far you seem to have provided information that the U.S. Military has and does bring to trial any soldier that commits waterboarding.

The Nazis thought it was legal to kill Jews and Poles. The international community obviously did not agree.

And WWII proved that they were wrong. So then why do you think its OK to kill Jews? You have never denounced the killing of Civilians, Jews or Iraqis, so why do you approve of those actions and not others?

Are you saying the Nuremberg Trials were a mistake?

The Nuremburg Trials were what they were, the trial of Nazi Leadership and Governmental Policy, and the people who implemented them.

Would it be legal to try the US intelligence for crimes against humanity?

If you can prove crimes against humanity, and that said specific actions were crimes against humanity.

Crimes against humanity:

In international law, a crime against humanity is an act of persecution or any large scale atrocities against a body of people, and is the highest level of criminal offense.

Isolated inhumane acts of this nature may constitute grave infringements of human rights, or depending on the circumstances, war crimes, but may fall short of meriting the stigma attaching to the category of crimes under discussion

The interesting thing is that no other country has tried to do so, have you ever ask why?................Maybe because they recognize that it isn't a crime against humanity,..............that they need the option open for their future security needs,...................they they themselves have at time in their past done the same, and will do so in the future, when it become necessary for the safety of the people and country.

For all the High Sounding Words, and Beating of Chests, all countries have and do use aggressive interrogation methods when it is a national imperative, India included, and there is no clearly defined law on the use of such methods in international law, and those treaties that do deal with the subject are regularly ignored by all countries when it is in their best interest, India Included.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

BR


He he. So now you are an EXPERT are you? You are funny...

4 survival schools, 20 years in the Military.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

BR


Oh. So that makes it OK.

From a nation whose president peppers his talk with constant reference to "FREEDOM" and "DEMOCRACY" and "HUMAN RIGHTS"!

Can you see how rotten this all is?
(No, denying it does not make it go away...)

In Reality? or in Utopia?

 

[stretched]

BR

4 survival schools, 20 years in the Military.

OK. Thats good. I gain new respect for you. So physically you get the picture. But you knew it was a limited excercise and thus merely a SMALL taste of the actual reality.

In Reality? or in Utopia?

Perhaps Obama can create a bit of utopia? We can only hope...

 

[iceaura]

When the US convicted a Japanese commander of waterboarding American captives in WWII, during a brutal war with survival on the line, the US hanged him by the neck with a rope until he was dead.

I have been waterboarded, even when i was a child my brother waterboarded me.

You have never been tortured by waterboarding.

When you had your mom pull a hangnail, that was not the same as being tortured by having your fingernails pulled out either.

Provide provable citation that any one at Gitmo was waterboarded,

People at Gitmo were tortured, according to eyewitness testimony, FBI testimony, prisoner testimony, various admissions by military personnel, documentary records, and much circumstantial evidence including front page photographs in the major daily newspapers of the United States.

The US President had his personal lawyer write a formal opinion absolving him of war crimes for what was done at Gitmo - the argument was not that the Geneva Convention was not violated (it most certainly was), but that it didn't apply to treatment of the detainees at Gitmo. So not only were prisoners badly abused at Gitmo, but everybody knew about it and planned on it.

For all the High Sounding Words, and Beating of Chests, all countries have and do use aggressive interrogation methods when it is a national imperative,

There is no national imperative involved here, and "aggressive interrogation methods" of that kind are crimes regardless.

I don't care what other nations do. Other nations do a lot of stupid, ugly, criminal things they, and we, would be better off not doing.

 

[Asguard]

Buffilo when the FBI agents going there leave and complain to the media about the practices of a place people take notice.