Christians and muslims at it again!

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

The Nigerian army says it has regained control of the city of Jos, where fighting between Muslims and Christians in recent days has left scores dead.
Lt Col Shekari Galadima told the BBC the city was "very calm" as the army was enforcing a 24-hour curfew. He insisted there would be no more riots.
But a BBC reporter in the region says the violence has now spread to Pankshin town, 100km (60 miles) from Jos.
Religious officials said at least 265 people had died since Sunday.
Among the dead were said to be 65 Christians and 200 Muslims.

At least 265 people are believed to have died in Jos
Muhammad Tanko Shittu, a senior mosque official organising mass burials, gave a much higher death toll - telling Reuters news agency more than 350 Muslims had died.

Jos has been blighted by religious violence over the past decade with deadly riots in 2001 and 2008.

The city is in Nigeria's volatile Middle Belt - between the mainly Muslim north and the south where the majority is Christian or follow traditional religions.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8469863.stm

Can't we all just get along? :shrug:

Between this and the recent issues in Malaysia I wonder how long we will pretend that there isn't something tragic and foul in occidental religion. Christians against Jews or muslims, Jews against muslims, muslims against christians and jews it amounts to nothing more but grief!

Why do you people adhere to these religions that lead their followers into nothing but warfare against those who supposedly worship the same bloody god?

All ye children of Abraham why can't you all just get along? Or at least leave each other in peace? What good are these belief systems if it only leads to violent divisive conflict among your 'brothers', the other 'people of the book'?

WTF?

 

[Repo Man]

It isn't always Christians and Muslims. From a very old National Lampoon:

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

True.

Well you know what that means don't you?

It means all these ideologies are bullshit!

"killing in the name of love"...of god

 

[Repo Man]

True.

Well you know what that means don't you?

It means all these ideologies are bullshit!

"killing in the name of love"...of god

I don't think evolution has equipped us very well for the conditions we now find ourselves in. Mythologies and other customs that helped provide social cohesion and ingroup/outgroup identification served us pretty well when we lived in small groups, but they don't seem to translate well to nations and groups of billions. The conditions that selected the strategies we still rely on have changed, but we don't seem to have caught up.

 

[Michael]

It's the One God, One Book, One Prophet memes. These memes are inherently intolerant. They inspire violence in a small percentage of any populous. One the violence is started there's a second demographic that will join in the mayhem under the auspices of these memes.

 

[Baron Max]

I don't think evolution has equipped us very well for the conditions we now find ourselves in. Mythologies and other customs that helped provide social cohesion and ingroup/outgroup identification served us pretty well when we lived in small groups, but they don't seem to translate well to nations and groups of billions. The conditions that selected the strategies we still rely on have changed, but we don't seem to have caught up.

I agree, but it's not just mythologies or religions. The ideals of the modern world, like "diversity is a good thing" has pushed the human society's capacities to the limit. ...and like that in Nigieria, it's pushed it OVER the limit.

Yep, just "forced" diverstiy at work in the modern world.

In Uganda, the people are trying to solve one of those problems by making it illegal to engage in homosexual activities. The majority don't like it, and if homosexual activity is permitted to remain in the society, there'll be problems. The Ugandans want to catch that violence and trouble before it starts. We're arguing that exact case on another thread here.

Baron Max

 

[Baron Max]

It's the One God, One Book, One Prophet memes. These memes are inherently intolerant. They inspire violence in a small percentage of any populous. .....

Lots of things "inspire" violence in a small percentage of any populace. But I think separating one cause from all the rest might be impossible ...unless you have some specific data and research that's valid.

I think if there's anything that "inspires" violence, it's physical, visible differences in the populations. People just don't like, don't trust, other people who are "different". It's a fact of life and it's a fact of nature.

Baron Max

 

[Michael]

Lots of things "inspire" violence in a small percentage of any populace. But I think separating one cause from all the rest might be impossible ...unless you have some specific data and research that's valid.

I think if there's anything that "inspires" violence, it's physical, visible differences in the populations. People just don't like, don't trust, other people who are "different". It's a fact of life and it's a fact of nature.

Baron Max

Well, lets go back to the racism approach. If you teach 1000 kids that blacks are bad and one of those kids grows up and kills a person because he's black - well, wouldn't you say that had something to do with the ideology this kids was raised in? now, sure, maybe this kids would have grown up to be a killer anyway :shrug: but, perhaps not. either way, what was good that came out of teaching these kids blacks are bad people?

Likewise, if you teach 1000 kids that Christians are inferior, their book has been corrupted by Satan, that unlike the corrupted faith of the Xians, the Muslims' book it perfect and God is on their side, they're the special little people, and one of those kids grows up and kills a person because he's Christian - well, wouldn't you say that had something to do with the ideology this kids was raised in?

And what good came out of teaching these kids such intolerant ideologies?
Nothing that I can see.


I'm not suggesting that removing this ideology is going to bring peace to the world, but, it will remove one more reason for violence. And, seeing as in it's now doing more harm than good, why not move on?

 

[Adstar]

The Nigerian army says it has regained control of the city of Jos, where fighting between Muslims and Christians in recent days has left scores dead.
Lt Col Shekari Galadima told the BBC the city was "very calm" as the army was enforcing a 24-hour curfew. He insisted there would be no more riots.
But a BBC reporter in the region says the violence has now spread to Pankshin town, 100km (60 miles) from Jos.
Religious officials said at least 265 people had died since Sunday.
Among the dead were said to be 65 Christians and 200 Muslims.

At least 265 people are believed to have died in Jos
Muhammad Tanko Shittu, a senior mosque official organising mass burials, gave a much higher death toll - telling Reuters news agency more than 350 Muslims had died.

Jos has been blighted by religious violence over the past decade with deadly riots in 2001 and 2008.

The city is in Nigeria's volatile Middle Belt - between the mainly Muslim north and the south where the majority is Christian or follow traditional religions.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8469863.stm

Can't we all just get along? :shrug:

Between this and the recent issues in Malaysia I wonder how long we will pretend that there isn't something tragic and foul in occidental religion. Christians against Jews or muslims, Jews against muslims, muslims against christians and jews it amounts to nothing more but grief!

Why do you people adhere to these religions that lead their followers into nothing but warfare against those who supposedly worship the same bloody god?

All ye children of Abraham why can't you all just get along? Or at least leave each other in peace? What good are these belief systems if it only leads to violent divisive conflict among your 'brothers', the other 'people of the book'?

WTF?

No true Christians are fighting there.

No true Christians are fighting anywhere.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[wynn]

What good are these belief systems if it only leads to violent divisive conflict among your 'brothers', the other 'people of the book'?

How do you know such violent conflicts are the only thing that those belief systems lead to?

 

[Baron Max]

..., if you teach 1000 kids that Christians are inferior, ...snip... , and one of those kids grows up and kills a person because he's Christian - well, wouldn't you say that had something to do with the ideology this kids was raised in?

1. How do you know that he was killed ONLY because he was Christian?
2. How do you know that it was his earlier education that caused him to become a killer?
3. Did the killer even know that the victim was a Christian? How do you know?
4. If the education caused that one person to kill, then why didn't it cause all of the 1,000 kids to kill Christians? Or at the very least, more than one?
5. If all 1,000 kids did NOT kill Christians, then the education must have been flawed, so how can you blame the education for that one killing?

And what good came out of teaching these kids such intolerant ideologies?

"...intolerant ideologies"? I know of no religion that advocates any such teachings or ideologies. You've made that up based on the actions of only a few people of some particular group. Which is like condemning all Muslims for the acts a few terrorists.

Michael, if anyone around here is "intolerant" it you! ...and that's based on your own words as typed in your post above. I would also suggest that you're the one being hateful and inciteful by suggesting that society should take away people's right to worship as they see fit.

How can you be so hateful and intolerant? And, by your logic, since you obviously ARE hateful and intolerant, then you parents must have taught that to you at an early age. Right? So, ...society should take children away from parents so that they don't teach such hatefulness and intorance. Right?

Baron Max

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

How do you know such violent conflicts are the only thing that those belief systems lead to?

That's true it also tends to breed ignorance and intolerance such as christian parents banning harry potter books because they believe it 'tricks' their children into accepting the 'dark forces' of wizardry, or murdering doctors hoping to promote their anti-abortion rhetoric.

Those who happily practice their beliefs without attempting to force their lifestyle or beliefs on others are not the issue.

 

[Michael]

1. How do you know that he was killed ONLY because he was Christian?

Sometimes it's blatantly obvious. Such as when a homosexual is hanged "for being a homosexual" or a skin head runs his knife into a pregnant Portuguese woman "because she's not white". Or when a Sunni Muslim kills a Shia Muslim "for not being Sunni" etc....

2. How do you know that it was his earlier education that caused him to become a killer?

Many times the person will proudly admit to it.

3. Did the killer even know that the victim was a Christian? How do you know?

In many cases yes they do and specifically target them.

4. If the education caused that one person to kill, then why didn't it cause all of the 1,000 kids to kill Christians? Or at the very least, more than one?

That's a good question and it seems genetics and environment are involved. As of now we don't really know why. There's a link with high testosterone and violent behavior - perhaps not all that surprisingly. Of course this doens't mean all people with high levels of testosterone will be violent. But, in any given population, there is a correlation. That aside, I think common sense will tell you, teach a dog to bite, don't be surprised when it bites someone.

5. If all 1,000 kids did NOT kill Christians, then the education must have been flawed, so how can you blame the education for that one killing?

No, I think there is something inherently violent about some individuals. What I'd like to know is if we taught these individuals that it's wrong to harm people, if that would (in a given population) lower the percentage of these types of people who harm people.

"...intolerant ideologies"? I know of no religion that advocates any such teachings or ideologies. You've made that up based on the actions of only a few people of some particular group. Which is like condemning all Muslims for the acts a few terrorists.

Certain ideologies encourage certain behaviors. Democratic nations share a great many similarities - even those as different as Japan and Germany. The same can be said of Communist nations as different as China and Cube. And the same can be said of Islamic nations.

Michael, if anyone around here is "intolerant" it you! ...and that's based on your own words as typed in your post above. I would also suggest that you're the one being hateful and inciteful by suggesting that society should take away people's right to worship as they see fit.

I've said in threads before I am intolerant of certain memes. I don't think we should tolerate teaching children racism. I'm certainly not saying "let's make it illegal" I just think that if we change the curriculum and introduce counter-memes we can create a society where certain ideologies are selected against. Hopefully they wither and die.

H

ow can you be so hateful and intolerant? And, by your logic, since you obviously ARE hateful and intolerant, then you parents must have taught that to you at an early age. Right? So, ...society should take children away from parents so that they don't teach such hatefulness and intorance. Right?

Bwwwhhaaahahahahahaaa....

Again, I never said that, I am speaking about changing school curriculum.

 

[Michael]

Lots of things "inspire" violence in a small percentage of any populace. But I think separating one cause from all the rest might be impossible ...unless you have some specific data and research that's valid.

I think if there's anything that "inspires" violence, it's physical, visible differences in the populations. People just don't like, don't trust, other people who are "different". It's a fact of life and it's a fact of nature.

Baron Max

Yeah, that does appear to be somewhat true. Some things can be overcome through experience (re: differences in skin or facial features). And we've invented things like ruby, boxing and other sports as outlets for competitive and violent behaviors. Which are part of being human and should be in society. If being religious is also a human quality, then it is OK to be here as well. But, like sports, lets create a religion that serves it's function and at the same time is less inclined to inspire violence in that small percentage of people. I mean boxing = good, gladiatorial combat to the death and hacking off limbs = bad.

See, it's called progress

 

[Baron Max]

That's true it also tends to breed ignorance and intolerance such as christian parents banning harry potter books because they believe it 'tricks' their children into accepting the 'dark forces' of wizardry, or murdering doctors hoping to promote their anti-abortion rhetoric.

That's quite an accusation, Lucy. Do you have any evidence for it, or is it just your own hatred (which you claim to abhor) causing you to make those unfounded accusations? Oh, you say you have some examples???

And if you come back with a few examples, divided it out and see what the percentage comes out to be relative to all of the religious people on Earth. Just guessing here, but I think you'll find that the percentage of bad relative to good is a very, very, very small number. But I'll wait for your expert, scientific, legal analysis before I make any further comments, okay?

Those who happily practice their beliefs without attempting to force their lifestyle or beliefs on others are not the issue.

What's the percentage, Lucy? If you figure that out, you might be able to shelve your overly active, and overly prejudiced hatred of religions.

I would also remind you, Lucy, that religions, all of them, were one of the greatest causes and foundations for the advancement of human societies and human cultures and human rights. Yet you seem to see only the few bad ones, then condemn them all for the acts/thoughts of a few. Not very nice, is it?

Baron Max

 

[Baron Max]

No, I think there is something inherently violent about some individuals. What I'd like to know is if we taught these individuals that it's wrong to harm people, if that would (in a given population) lower the percentage of these types of people who harm people.

...LOL! You liberal dreamers are all quite a bit alike, ya' know? Y'all have settled on this "education thingie" as the answer to all of the world's woes! ...LOL! Hey, just teasing .....in a relatively factual way, of course.

But tell me, Michael, do you honestly, seriously, honestly, deep, deep down, do you really, truly believe that the people who are violent, the killers, etc, don't know that it's wrong? And tell me, honestly, even if they don't know or they don't think that it's wrong, do you honestly think that telling them that it's wrong is going to take? Huh? Be honest, now.

Children no older than 3, perhaps 4, know that it's wrong to hurt other people. ...and usually they know it's wrong to hurt animals. How could they not know that?

Baron Max

 

[Michael]

...LOL! You liberal dreamers are all quite a bit alike, ya' know? Y'all have settled on this "education thingie" as the answer to all of the world's woes! ...LOL! Hey, just teasing .....in a relatively factual way, of course.

But tell me, Michael, do you honestly, seriously, honestly, deep, deep down, do you really, truly believe that the people who are violent, the killers, etc, don't know that it's wrong? And tell me, honestly, even if they don't know or they don't think that it's wrong, do you honestly think that telling them that it's wrong is going to take? Huh? Be honest, now.

Children no older than 3, perhaps 4, know that it's wrong to hurt other people. ...and usually they know it's wrong to hurt animals. How could they not know that?

Baron Max

Then why do places like Japan have such low crime rates? Not to mention many other places. Sure, you have your weird German Cannibal once in awhile, but in all - we can do better.

Not to mention that multiculturalism is a fact of life. The world is integrating and will continue to do so. May as well plan for the future :shrug: Our monotheism will need to be re-worked a bit. Nothing wrong with that, it's all made up anyway, why not make it up a bit better?

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

That's quite an accusation, Lucy. Do you have any evidence for it, or is it just your own hatred (which you claim to abhor) causing you to make those unfounded accusations? Oh, you say you have some examples???

And if you come back with a few examples, divided it out and see what the percentage comes out to be relative to all of the religious people on Earth. Just guessing here, but I think you'll find that the percentage of bad relative to good is a very, very, very small number. But I'll wait for your expert, scientific, legal analysis before I make any further comments, okay?



What's the percentage, Lucy? If you figure that out, you might be able to shelve your overly active, and overly prejudiced hatred of religions.

I would also remind you, Lucy, that religions, all of them, were one of the greatest causes and foundations for the advancement of human societies and human cultures and human rights. Yet you seem to see only the few bad ones, then condemn them all for the acts/thoughts of a few. Not very nice, is it?

Baron Max

Well you have assumed much haven't you? I don't abhor hate as you mention anymore than I abhor love, fear, happiness or any other human sentiment so stop talking out of your ass.

You want evidence? I just gave you the examples! They are not a secret you can google them! As I have said the religious who mind their own business practicing whatever beliefs they may have are not in discussion, there were plenty of muslims and christians who ran from violence in Nigeria while a few torched and killed but with the rise of religious assertion over other religions it seems as if the adherents are not very good by living by their doctrines. It proves to me that their ideas, mysteries etc are no more valuable in making man a better person as it seems to bring out their worst of flaws and prejudices.


Why do I say that? Well Its the religious who tend to think they have the moral high ground, its the religious who believe others have to bend to their ideals and values since they have 'gods way' and have god on their side. I just find it ironic that gods way has lead so many to the gun or the guillotine so to speak. I would chuck away a belief system that is so flawed, its adherents do not become more pure or better human beings than those who do not adhere they simply become unreasonable and WACKY! And it creates just one more 'other'. Religion has lost its place. Personally Baron I don't give a toss about religions or the religious its the religious that give a toss about us!

They are the ones with 'the way' right? Well they don't (none of them) set a very good example.

"Dokubo said Muslim settlers wanted to manage the government, which was unacceptable to the indigenous Christian community who regard the former as non-citizens.

"The main cause of the crisis is about administration and the place where people belong," he said.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2010/01/2010121141491478.html

They are no less corrupt than the non-religious, whatever affect the holy books are supposed to have on people doesn't seem to be working!

In terms of hatred Baron or percentages I, nor other atheists or agnostics are not the ones setting the homes of the religious on fire or burning their churches or mosques or cutting the head of 'believers and infidels'. Its not the non believers you should fear its the ones holding the book up high. I mean you have 18,000 people homeless because of this violence in Nigeria, not because of some natural disaster just your ole time religion.

 

[Baron Max]

Then why do places like Japan have such low crime rates? Not to mention many other places. ...

First, I won't agree with "...many other places" because I don't think there are "many". If you know of all these "many" such wonderous, non-violent places, please list them for us.

Second, the reasons for low crime rates in such places as Japan is ...societal unity and cohesion. The society has a single unifying culture and long histories of traditional values, etc. I.e., they all think much alike on most, if not all, issues.

Not to mention that multiculturalism is a fact of life. The world is integrating and will continue to do so. May as well plan for the future.

Sure, but you should also plan for more conflict, disagreements, social strife, angry populations, riots, special interest groups' demands, demands for special laws, demands for laws to limit the actions/speech of other groups, ....., and the list goes on and on. Oh, yeah, and you should plan on more cops with more guns to control all of those diverse groups ...cause they sure as hell won't control themselves as history is quick to point out to those who dare to listen.

Our monotheism will need to be re-worked a bit. Nothing wrong with that, it's all made up anyway, why not make it up a bit better?

I'm sure that you're going to get the approval of all of the theists for that "re-working"? If not, are you going to force it upon them? ...with cops and guns? Tell me, Michael, just how are you going to "re-work" someone's religious beliefs?

Baron Max

 

[Baron Max]

...there were plenty of muslims and christians who ran from violence in Nigeria while a few torched and killed....

You say the above, Lucy, then you continue and say:

...but with the rise of religious assertion over other religions it seems as if the adherents are not very good by living by their doctrines. ...

I'm sure that you refuse to see the conflict in the above two statements, even though you typed them virtually together. In the first, you're actually saying that the "good" Muslims and Christians did not take part in the violence. Yet in the second, you're accusing the religions as instigating the violence with their doctrine. You can't see the conflict between those two statements?

It proves to me that their ideas, mysteries etc are no more valuable in making man a better person as it seems to bring out their worst of flaws and prejudices.

And yet, with that "proof", you still made the first statement above?? That "...there were plenty of muslims and christians who ran from violence..." So what's the deal here, Lucy, does religion bring out the worst, or does religion make people run from the violence?

Your post (and the ones previous) make accusations against the religions, yet here you've practically proven that far, far more people were running away and were non-violent than all of those few violent ones. See? Very few "religious" people were involved in the violence, yet you condemned all of the religious people as well as the religions themselves for the violence. Geez, Lucy, ....see why I made mention of your hatred? Your hatred of religion makes you blind to logic and reason.

...Well Its the religious who tend to think they have the moral high ground, .... ... I just find it ironic that gods way has lead so many to the gun or the guillotine so to speak.

And once again, Lucy, you've made accusations against the entire religious community, all religions, for the acts of only a very, very few. See? Your hatred of religions has blinded you to logic and reason.

Lucy, should we condemn all Muslims for the terrorist acts of a few fanatical Muslims? Should we condemn all Christians for the acts of Timothy McViegh, the Oklahoma bomber? Where do we stop that form of condemnation, Lucy? Can we condemn all men for the acts of a few child predators? Where does it stop, Lucy?

Religion has lost its place. Personally Baron I don't give a toss about religions or the religious its the religious that give a toss about us!

Lost its place? Lucy, do you have even the foggiest idea how many religious people there are in the world? ...compare that to the number of non-religious people. You'll see that religion has not "lost its place".

In terms of hatred Baron or percentages I, nor other atheists or agnostics are not the ones setting the homes of the religious on fire or burning their churches or mosques or cutting the head of 'believers and infidels'. ...

Hmm, I think you're not only wrong, but you're so freakin' wrong that it's not even funny!! Lucy, I could suggest that you think a little bit more about this issue. The religious don't do any of those things ....it's the atheists who've turned against the teachings of their religions. Lucy, it's the haters, the non-religious, like you, for example, who are actually doing all of the violence.

I would also suggest that you take a closer look at your own hatred ....it's a good example of the hatred that the fanatics use to foment violence and more hatred. Take off the blinders, Lucy, look around, think a little bit.

Baron Max