Christianity, My foot in my mouth, and more

secretasianman

Registered Senior Member
Well if you remember an insecure kid (by the name of secretasianman) from several months ago who came here "looking for honest discussion" on vague issues of Christianity but did nothing of the sort, that was me. Since then, I'd like to think that I've gained some ability to be honest with myself - meaning that a) I was full of shit then, whether that was my fault or not, and b) I didn't know the first thing about Christianity then.

So at the moment I'm taking a 10-week course up here in Berkeley entitled "Course 101," an introduction to the Christian foundations for the non-Christian. Although it isn't feasible for me to post all the course material here, I would like to put up certain self-contained (that is, that which doesn't require too much background; nothing vague or *esoteric*) points for discussion, as time allows.

What I have right now is an addendum to this week's (Week #1) assignment, entitled "Two Arguments on the Existence of God" - the "Kalam Cosmological Argument" and "The Moral Argument" (which I anticipate will be the one most discussed). Frankly, although I've looked over them myself once or twice, I'd rest easier after some sort of discussion.

The arguments are on the next post. Footnotes are indicated by a number in parentheses, and my comments, which hopefully will be kept to a minimum, are at the bottom. Um, carry on.
 
Last edited:
Two Arguments on the Existence of God

The arguments below for the existence of God are just two of many such arguments advanced in the past by philosophers. They are presented here in a very simplified form, not as conclusive proofs, but simply as illustrative of the point that theism is highly defensible. Atheism, on the other hand, is highly indefensible. Atheism - the claim by a finite, limited being that he knows for certain that the infinite, unlimited being does not in fact exist - is the height of unprovable dogma, and has been abandoned by an overwhelming majority of philosophers. Atheism turns out to be a bald, unsupported assertion, as is the assertion that the universe never had a beginning, but always existed. Such assertions require a much greater leap of credulousness than theism.

The Kalam Cosmological Argument
These are the questions that the Kalam argument deals with:

1. Did the universe have a beginning?
2. If it had a beginning, was that beginning caused?
3. If it was caused, then was the cause personal or impersonal?

We will briefly go through the Kalam argument by the sections outlined above (1).

1. Did the universe have a beginning?
It seems clear that if one claims that there was no beginning to the universe, then this is equivalent to saying that there have been an actual infinite number of past events in the history of the universe. The problem is this: actual infinity can be a useful conceptual tool in mathematics, but it does not seem possible for an actual infinite to exist in the real world. (A number that approaches infinity certainly seems to exist in the real world, but note that that number is still finite.)

Craig offers the following case. (2) Imagine a library with an actual infinite number of books. Suppose further that there is an infinite number of red books and an infinite number of black books in the library. Does it really make sense to say that there are as many black books in the library as there are red and black books together? Furthermore, I could withdraw all the black books and not change the total holdings in the library. In this way, actual infinity, if it exists in the real world, implies unreasonable consequences.

Another way to approach this question is to consider the fact that it is impossible to count to infinity. If we claim that there was no beginning to the universe, then this is equivalent to saying that the beginning of the universe was at negative infinity. But if that were the case, then the past could never have been exhaustively traversed to reach the present. In order to reach this moment, how many actual years must have passed? If the universe did not have a beginning, then before we can reach any event in the history of the cosmos, there has already transpired an actual infinite number of events. (i.e., an infinite number of years have been counted in order to reach today.) Yet this seems to violate the observation that it is impossible to count to infinity; in the real world, we can always approach infinity, but never reach it.

Two current scientific theories support this conclusion that there must have been a beginning to the universe. The big bang theory (3) implies that the universe sprang into existence from nothing an infinite time ago - that space, even time itself, "started" from a single point. As scientist Robert Jastrow puts it, "What is the ultimate solution to the origin of the Universe? The answers provided by the astronomers are disconcerting and remarkable. Most remarkable of all is the fact that in science, as in the Bible, the world begins with an act of creation." Another scientific theory is actually a law, the second law of thermodynamics, involving a concept known as entropy. It is one of the fundamental, best-established laws of science. The second law states that the universe is irreversibly moving toward a state of maximum disorder and minimum energy. For example, if you were to leave an open bottle of perfume in a room, the perfume will evaporate from the bottle and disperse in such a way that it will become uniformly distributed throughout the room. Applied to the universe as a whole, the second law tells us that the universe is wearing down irreversibly. But since a state of maximum entropy has not yet been reached, the universe has not been here forever. As theoretical physicist Paul Davies puts it: "The universe cannot have existed forever, otherwise it would have reached its equilibrium end state (known among the physicist as the 'heat death' of the universe) an infinite time ago. Conclusion: the universe did not always exist."

2. If it had a beginning, was that beginning caused?
Since the universe had a beginning, it would mean that there is such a thing as the "first event". It would also seem that the most reasonable view to take would be that the first event was caused (4). The principle that something does not come from nothing without cause is a reasonable one. This is especially true with regard to events, which have a definite beginning and end, and do not happen without something causing them. For example, if someone were to observe a baseball flying overhead, she could reasonably state that the movement of the baseball was caused (by a bat, an arm, another object striking it, etc.); it could not have just "decided" to move. When we look at the universe, we can see that all events are caused by another event, in what physicists call the chain of "cause-and-effect". By contrast, God does not need a cause, since he is neither an event nor a contingent being. He is a necessary Being and such a being does not need a cause. In fact, it is a categorical fallacy to ask for a cause for God since this is really asking for a cause for the Being from which the first event arose. If we were to continue in this categorical fallacy, then the first event no longer becomes the first event; the previous event (namely God coming into being) is the first event, and so on and so forth forever backwards until we throw out the idea that the universe had a beginning at all. But since it was established that the universe does have a beginning, we must accept the fact that there is such a thing as the "first event." And this event, by the very nature of events, must have been caused. And this cause, since it is the cause of time and the universe, must have existed outside of time and the universe.

3. If it was caused, then was the cause personal or impersonal?
Prior to the first event, there was a state of affairs which can be described by the following: there was not time, space, or change of any kind. In that state, what does one really mean when he (or she - the legion of PC strikes again :D ) thinks of the "cause" of the universe being impersonal? Surely the cause itself cannot be from the universe itself, for it does not exist yet. One can possibly think that it was the Laws of Nature (impersonal laws of physics or math) that somehow caused the first event, for that is the only impersonal, immaterial thing that could have existed prior to the first event. However, the vague idea that laws of nature can cause events is faulty.

The law of physics decree that when one billiard ball (A) sets another billiard ball (B) in motion, the momentum lost by A exactly equals the momentum gained by B. This is a law. That is, this the pattern to which the movement of the two billiard balls must conform - provided, of course, that something set ball A in motion. And here comes the snag. The law won't set it in motion. It is usually a man with a cue that does that. But that would bring us immediately to consider a personal cause, so let us stay off that path and assume that the ball was lying on a table in a ship and that what set it in motion was a lurch of the ship. Still, it was not the law which produced the movement; it was a wave. And that wave, though it certainly moved
according to the laws of physics, was not moved by them. It was shoved by other waves, and by winds, and so forth. And however far we trace the story back we would never find the Laws of Nature causing anything. The obvious conclusion is this: in the whole history of the universe the Laws of Nature have never produced a single event. (5) They are the pattern to which every event must conform, provided only that it can be induced to happen. But how do you get it to "happen"? The Laws of Nature can give you no help there. All events simply obey them, just as all operations with money obey the laws of arithmetic. Add six pennies to six and the result will certainly be twelve pennies. But arithmetic by itself won't put a single penny in your pocket.

The only way for the first event to arise spontaneously from a timeless, changeless state of affairs, and at the same time be caused, is this: the event resulted from the free act of a person or agent. We can observe this phenomenon in our daily lives. In the world, persons or agents spontaneously act to bring about events (which poses a huge problem to the whole idea that humans are nothing more than conglomerations of molecules in motion, but we won't get into that here). I myself "will" to raise my arm, and it happens. There may be necessary conditions for me to do this (e.g., I have a normal arm, I am not tied down), but these are not sufficient. The event is only realized when I freely act. Similarly, the first event came about when an agent freely chose to bring it about, and this personal choice is the only possible first cause that is not contingent on any other causes.

In summary, it is most reasonable to believe that the universe had a beginning which was caused by a timeless, personal agent. This is not a proof that such a being is the God of the Bible, but it is a strong statement that the world had its beginning by the act of a person. And this is at the very least a good reason to believe in some form of theism. However, the parallel ought to be noted between this mysterious agent and the God of the Bible. Could it be possible that the Will that started the universe is the God of teh Bible, who introduces Himself as such (6)? Could it be possible that the immutable, timeless agent that created the universe is the God of the Bible - who claims to be the beginning and the end, who always was, is, and is to come (7)- the timeless "I am" (8)?


The Moral Argument
The Moral Argument for the existence of God deals with these issues:

1. Is there an objective moral law?
2. If there is an objective moral law, then what is its most probable origin?

1. Is there an objective moral law?
Everyone has heard people quarrelling. (9) Sometimes it sounds funny and sometimes it sounds merely unpleasant; but however it sounds, we can learn something very important from listening to the kinds of things they say. They say things like this: "How'd you like it if anyone did the same to you?" - "That's my seat, I was there first" - "Why should you shove in first?" - "Come on, you promised." People say things like that every day, educated people as well as uneducated, and children as well as grown-ups. Now what is interesting about all these remarks is that the man who makes them is not merely saying that the other man's behavior does not happen to please him. He is appealing to some kind of standard of behavior which he expects the other man to know about. And the other man very seldom replies: "To hell with your standard." Nearly always he tries to make out that what he has been doing does not really go against the standard, or that if he does there is some special excuse. It seems as if both parties had in mind some kind of Law or Rule of fair play or decent behavior abotu which they really agreed. And they have. If they had not, they might fight like animals, but they could not quarrel in the human sense of the word. Quarrelling means trying to show that the other person is in the wrong. And there would be no sense in trying to do that unless you and he had some sort of agreement as to what Right and Wrong are. The fact that there seems to be some kind of an agreed-upon law - which seems deply embedded in our conscience and has a say in what we ought to do - cannot be denied, assuming that we have not become dangerously deranged beyond hope. The issue is not the existence of this strange law, but the objectivity (i.e., that which does not depend on personal opinion) of this law.

One of the prevalent alternatives to believing in an absolute, objective morality is to believe that morality is determined by each person according to her (and his - is this necessary :bugeye: ) own tastes and cultural background. We hear people saying things like: "Who are you to say what's right?" Others ask, "Isn't what you call the Moral Law just a social convention, something that is put into us by education?" The people who ask that question are usually taking it for granted that if we learned a thing from parents and teachers, then that thing must be merely a human invention. But, of course, that is not so. We all learned the multiplication table at school. But surely it does not follow that the multiplication table is simply a human convention, something human beings have made up for themselves and might have made differently if they had liked? There are things that we learn (such as driving on the right side of the road) that are mere conventions, and there are others, like mathematics, that are objective truths. The question is, to which class does the Moral Law belong? Living in a multicultural society, we are afraid of making any statements that might sound ethnocentric. Surely it would be ethnocentric for us to say something like American music is the only "right" music. But we must not confuse morality with these sorts of subjective, cultural issues. For example, would it be considered ethnocentric for us to say that the Nazis were wrong in committing genocide? If we were to accept the view that morality is soleley determined by culture, then we could not make such a claim. According to their socially determined rules, their system of eliminating the Jews was entirely legal. Does this make what they did right?

Another problem with this relativistic view is that there coudl never be no moral progress. Progress means not just changing, but changing for the better. If no set of moral ideas were truer or better than any other, there would be no sense in preferring the life of Mother Teresa to the life of (??? um, insert villain here, or so-called villain); there would be no sense in preferring Christian morality to Nazi morality. The moment you say that one set of moral ideas can be better than another, you are, in fact, measuring both of them by a standard, saying that one of them conforms to that standard more nearly than the other (10). Also, if we were to say that the "rightness" of a particular behavior is determined by the cultural norm of that time, then we must, by that definition, condemn all moral reformers (like the abolitionists, MLK Jr., etc.) as evil, for they went against the cultural norm. We have grown quite familiar with the vague notion that morality is subjective and relative; however, upon careful examination, we can see that such a belief collapses on itself. At the Nuremberg trials, one of the arguments that the Nazis used in their defense was that they were operating according to the law of their own land. To that, a legitimate counter-question was raised, and it remains the question we must answer today, "But is there not a law above our laws?" (11)

Some adopt the view that the "rightness" of something is determined by whatever benefits society; and that consequently there is no mystery abou tit. Human beings, after all, have some sense; they see tha tyou cannot have real safety or happiness except in a society where everyone plays fair. But this explanation of why we feel as we do about Right and Wrong misses the point. If we ask: "Why ought I to be unselfish?" and you reply, "Because it is good for society," we may then ask, "Why should I care what's good for society except when it happens to pay me personally?" and then you will have to say, "Because you ought to be unselfish" - which simply brings us back to where we sarted. You are saying what is true, but you are not getting any further. If a man asks what is the point of behaving decently, it is no good replying, "in order to benefit society," for trying to benefit society, in other words being unselfish (for "society" after all only means "other people"), is one of the things decent behavior consists of; all you are really saying is that decent behavior is decent behavior. (12) Still others adopt the view that morality is somehow coded into our genes through evolution to preserve the species. Let us imagine a situation where a healthy young man is given the task of murdering an innocent elderly woman, or else he will lose his own life. Now in such a situation, if we were to adopt the view that morality is determined by whatever benefits the species, then we would have to say that it's morally "right" for the young man to eliminate the old woman. In fact, it would be "wrong" for him to refuse to do so, because the old woman, in an evolutionary sense, can no longer contribute to the preservation of the species. Yet why is it that something inside of us feels outrage at such an act?

While the law of gravity tells you what stones do if you drop them, the Moral Law seems to dictate what we ought to do, not what we actually end up doing. In other words, when we are dealing with humans, something else comes in and beyond the actual facts. It begins to look as if we shall have to admit that there is more than one kind of reality; that, in this particular case, there is something above and beyond the ordinary facts of men's behavior, and yet quite definitely real - a real law, which none of us made, but which we find pressing on us. (13)

2. If there is an objective moral law, then what is its most probable origin?

Following the conclusion that there is strong evidence for the existence of an absolute set of moral laws, let us now consider what this tells us about the universe we live in. We can observe the universe using the empirical methods of science; however, note that if we were to merely study mankind from the outside, as we study electricity or plants, by observing what man "does," we would never get the slightest evidence that we were aware of this moral law. But as we observe ourselves from the inside, we find a strange influence or command trying to get us to behave in a certain way. The question is: what is the source of this objective moral law, which urges me to do right and makes me feel responsible and uncomfortable when I do wrong? We have to assume it is more likely to be a mind than it is anything else we know - because after all the only thing we know is matter, and you hardly imagine a bit of matter giving instructions.

This mind-like Being, apparently is intensely interested in right conduct - in fair lay, unselfishness, courage, good faith, honesty, and truthfulness. But at that precise moment when we realize this, we find reasons to be uneasy, because if this absolute "goodness" were impersonal, like the multiplication table, then there may be no sense in asking it to make allowances for us or let us off. We would be in the wrong. Even if this Being was personal, we are not in any better situation. On one hand, we agree with this "goodness" with His disapproval of human greed and trickery and exploitation. Yet we know that if there does exist an absolute goodness He must hate most of what we do. This is the terrible fix we are in.

Although it's not sufficient proof, it's notable to recognize that the God of the Bible specifically addresses this human predicament. Just when we look inward and are terrified at what we find there - just when we are tempted to ignore the whole thing and go on with our lives - Christianity asks us to face the facts. The Christian religion asks us to consider carefully what our condition is and offers the invitation to approach the Being from whom these laws came.

____________________________________________________

(1) For a more extensive overview on this subject, refer to Scaling the Secular City (J.P. Moreland)
(2) Craig, "Philosophical and Scientific Pointers," pp. 6-7; see also G.J. Whitrow, "On the Impossibility of an Infinite Past," British Journal for the Philosophy of Science 29 (1978): 39-45
(3) For introductory treatments of the big bang theory, see John Polkinghorne, The Way the World Is: The Christian Perspective of a Scientist (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1984), pp.7-16
(4) J.P. Moreland, Scaling the Secular City, p. 38
(5) C.S. Lewis, The Grand Miracle p. 52
(6) Genesis 1:1
(7) Revelations 1:8
(8) Exodus 3:14

(9) Paraphrased from C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity p.17-18
(10) C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity p. 25
(11) Quoted by Ravi Zacharias, A Shattered Visage: The Real Face of Atheism, p. 61
(12) C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity pp. 29-30
(13) C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity p. 30

____________________________________________________

Well... there it is. 6:30 AM. As for my comments:
- Can't I scan this stuff somehow up here somehow? I had some other stuff, from a book called Letters from a Skeptic (letters between a 70-ish retired agnostic - with strong anti-Christian tendencies - and his Christian Ph.D. etc. etc. son) which I'd like to scan up here, but there's no way I'm risking carpal tunnel...
- Obviously, nothing other than atheism (and maybe agnosticism, which as I understand it isn't a stance that can be *permanently* adopted) has been addressed... more knowledgeable people please contribute
- Isn't it funny how, aware of my own limitations (intellectual, mostly) as a human being, I "make belief my mind's adviser", and put my faith in more experienced/intelligent human beings? Don't any of you do this as well? Just a thought.
 
Re morality, see: The Biological Basis of Morality. Don't overlook part two.
secretasianman wrote:
Although it's not sufficient proof, it's notable to recognize that the God of the Bible specifically addresses this human predicament.
The address was particularly terse for the Midianites, but what else might one expect from someone who hardened Pharoah's heart, thereby justifying the plagues.

Morality is, in my opinion, a worthless argument for God(s).

Kalam, on the other hand, is little more than an appeal to the God-of-the-Gaps. What on Earth (or anywhere else for that matter) does it mean to say:
  • "In summary, it is most reasonable to believe that the universe had a beginning which was caused by a timeless, personal agent."?
What can it mean other than 'well, shucks, it sure seems that way to me'? Why:
  • personal rather than impersonal?
  • agent rather than agents?
  • loving rather than malicious?
  • honest rather than dishonest?
  • ... ?
"God did it" is not an answer, but a placeholder awaiting one. "Jesus loves me" is far more appealing than talk of ground state fluctuations, p-branes, and M-Theory, but so is the Daoine Sidhe.
 
secret,

This is great stuff and very elementary. You should receive some good posts refuting all this. I assume the course is deliberately giving this assignment in what amounts to Christian propaganda, so that the student will find the opposing arguments.

Atheism - the claim by a finite, limited being that he knows for certain that the infinite, unlimited being does not in fact exist - is the height of unprovable dogma, and has been abandoned by an overwhelming majority of philosophers.
Atheism has evolved so you should find out what atheism really means. I recommend you read "Atheism, The Case Against God, by George H Smith". This book is one of several that are considered leading authorities on atheism. It contains the opposing arguments to both these Christian claims.

Atheism turns out to be a bald, unsupported assertion, as is the assertion that the universe never had a beginning, but always existed. Such assertions require a much greater leap of credulousness than theism.
What is more credible, that something is based on natural known laws of physics, or that a massively super intelligent, invisible, immaterial, all powerful incomprehensible super being did it, and that such a being requires an entirely different realm and definition of reality in which to survive.

Simply on the basis of credibility the claim for a god has a real hard time. But if we consider the argument here against the proposition that the universe always existed, then we need to also consider the Christian argument that God always existed. This pretty much cancels out the infinity argument and what remains is the argument for credibility, e.g. natural simple laws, versus an incredible super being.

Note also that the big bang is the current limit of what can be observed. To assume that the big bang is the only big bang ignores the current proposals in physics that the big bang is just one of an infinite number of big bangs. All the time there is no evidence of a cause for the big bang then the speculations by science have perhaps equal and perhaps more weight than theological claims.

Hope you receive lots of responses.
 
I have never understood the assumption that mankind has to have guidance to get where he is today. Why can he not be moral from the aspect of self realization, and not from some forced viewpoint from elsewhere? Why is the human species always belittled by religion? Why is it arrogant to see humanity as something more than a child of a god, told what to do?

I agree that those two arguments are the strongest ones for a creator. But they are not strong enough to override the other possibilities, that we are alone, part of a natural universe, and we choose our own destiny. Perhaps this is what frightens people into hoping for a god's guidance, that we are truly responsible for what we do for and to ourselves, good or bad. There is no one else looking out for us. It's frightening, awe inspiring, and encouraging.
 
Posted by secretasianman: If we claim that there was no beginning to the universe, then this is equivalent to saying that the beginning of the universe was at negative infinity. But if that were the case, then the past could never have been exhaustively traversed to reach the present.
WOW!! EXACTLY what I've been saying!! :)

Ummmm... Atheism seems to be based on self-centerism...


ConsequentAtheist,
The address was particularly terse for the Midianites, but what else might one expect from someone who hardened Pharoah's heart, thereby justifying the plagues.
He didn't do it, He ALLOWED it to happen.


Cris,
I assume the course is deliberately giving this assignment in what amounts to Christian propaganda, so that the student will find the opposing arguments.
It doesn't seem so...

Atheism has evolved so you should find out what atheism really means. I recommend you read "Atheism, The Case Against God, by George H Smith". This book is one of several that are considered leading authorities on atheism. It contains the opposing arguments to both these Christian claims.
The prove them wrong...

Simply on the basis of credibility the claim for a god has a real hard time. But if we consider the argument here against the proposition that the universe always existed, then we need to also consider the Christian argument that God always existed. This pretty much cancels out the infinity argument and what remains is the argument for credibility, e.g. natural simple laws, versus an incredible super being.
The infinity argument is only against time.

Note also that the big bang is the current limit of what can be observed. To assume that the big bang is the only big bang ignores the current proposals in physics that the big bang is just one of an infinite number of big bangs. All the time there is no evidence of a cause for the big bang then the speculations by science have perhaps equal and perhaps more weight than theological claims.
So you are saying that infinite big bangs in an infinite amount of time is more plausible then an infinite being...?


Jaxom,

Why is it arrogant to see humanity as something more than a child of a god, told what to do?
We didn't create the universe and we are pretty weak. Do I need to say more?

I agree that those two arguments are the strongest ones for a creator. But they are not strong enough to override the other possibilities, that we are alone, part of a natural universe, and we choose our own destiny. Perhaps this is what frightens people into hoping for a god's guidance, that we are truly responsible for what we do for and to ourselves, good or bad. There is no one else looking out for us. It's frightening, awe inspiring, and encouraging.
They are strong enough to override the other possibilities and, no, it is not frightening. It seems much more frightening to you the idea that there is some being more powerful then you. It is even worse for selfish and self-centered people since they want to be the center of the universe.
 
By contrast, God does not need a cause, since he is neither an event nor a contingent being. He is a necessary Being and such a being does not need a cause. In fact, it is a categorical fallacy to ask for a cause for God since this is really asking for a cause for the Being from which the first event arose.

this part seems like a cop out to me. it's easy to make a pro-god argument if you assume that god is necessary.

the entire argument seems to put the burden of proof in god not existing. that lack of proof of his nonexistence is proof that he does exist. this is my main disagreement.

of all the pro-god arguments i've heard I'd have to say this one is somewhat mediocre.
 
truthseeker,

I assume the course is deliberately giving this assignment in what amounts to Christian propaganda, so that the student will find the opposing arguments.

It doesn't seem so...
If it is a genuine college course then it will be presenting the arguments objectively. Such a course is not a church.

WOW!! EXACTLY what I've been saying!!

Ummmm... Atheism seems to be based on self-centerism...
It's an obvious fallacy. You're falling into a trap.

I recommend you read "Atheism, The Case Against God, by George H Smith". This book is one of several that are considered leading authorities on atheism. It contains the opposing arguments to both these Christian claims.

The prove them wrong...
Prove who wrong? I suggest you read the book.

So you are saying that infinite big bangs in an infinite amount of time is more plausible then an infinite being...?
We know at least one big bang has occurred, and we known infinity must exist, but we have nothing to indicate that a supernatural being exists. Given what we KNOW then of course infinite big bangs is more plausible.
 
Cris,

If it is a genuine college course then it will be presenting the arguments objectively. Such a course is not a church.
But the course may not intend to prove it wrong.

It's an obvious fallacy. You're falling into a trap.
Which fallacy? Which trap? Prove me wrong. Look at you. You ARE self-centered aren't you? The very atheist thing of "there is no supernatural being" implies in the atheists mind that "there is no one better, greater or more powerful then me". You make yourselves gods when you say there is no being greater then you (men). And yet, you have a life that was given to you...

Prove who wrong? I suggest you read the book.
Prove that what secretasianman said is wrong... or you are not very believable...

We know at least one big bang has occurred, and we known infinity must exist, but we have nothing to indicate that a supernatural being exists. Given what we KNOW then of course infinite big bangs is more plausible.
You mean, given what you BELIEVE TO KNOW it is more plausible...

I'm pretty sure that some 2000 years from now people will look at those theories and laught at them....:rolleyes:

Don't you see that no matter how deep you go it just keeps going? First, we though that the whole universe was our planet. Then, we though that the whole universe was our solar system. Then, we though that the whole universe was our universe. Now we think that ther are other universes and they are all inside one bigger universe. Yet, where is infinity. Is the universe outside ours infinite? If we cannot detect that, how can you say such thing? Science will NEVER find an answer since it limits itself by its own laws. Not very smart indeed. Maybe it's time for a revolution...?:p
 
Originally posted by TruthSeeker
We didn't create the universe and we are pretty weak. Do I need to say more?

You obviously missed the point. What religion doesn't dumb down humanity's abilities? In fact, opponents of secular humanism call it rightly a glorification of mankind instead of a creator, and I think the praise is worthy, despite all our problems in society. It's easy to find the faults in mankind, but why not focus as well on the acheivements? Religion doesn't allow this. I never compared us TO gods, only said that religion downplays humanity.

They are strong enough to override the other possibilities and, no, it is not frightening. It seems much more frightening to you the idea that there is some being more powerful then you. It is even worse for selfish and self-centered people since they want to be the center of the universe.

Not frightened. Like most atheists I would welcome positive proof to me of a superior being. Do not assume that all atheists, or even most of them, are not knowledgeable of religion, have not been religious, and are purposefully hiding from your god. They just aren't convinced with the pro arguments offered. And honestly, would you want them to pretend to believe, when they can't? False faith seems to me to be a bad thing.
 
Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Science will NEVER find an answer since it limits itself by its own laws. Not very smart indeed. Maybe it's time for a revolution...?:p

Science is limited true enough, by the physical contraints of the tangible universe, but it will find the answers, if they are findable. And by the very nature of how science is done, a new theory can bring a revolution, by providing an improved model that matches what we see better than the previous model.
 
Jaxom,

You obviously missed the point. What religion doesn't dumb down humanity's abilities? In fact, opponents of secular humanism call it rightly a glorification of mankind instead of a creator, and I think the praise is worthy, despite all our problems in society. It's easy to find the faults in mankind, but why not focus as well on the acheivements? Religion doesn't allow this. I never compared us TO gods, only said that religion downplays humanity.
But when you say that there is no God you stand all alone as the only kind of intelligent being in the universe, thus making yourself the greatest of all beings. And which achivements you are talking about? Polution? Violence? Confusion? Certainly not... Then which ones??

Not frightened. Like most atheists I would welcome positive proof to me of a superior being. Do not assume that all atheists, or even most of them, are not knowledgeable of religion, have not been religious, and are purposefully hiding from your god. They just aren't convinced with the pro arguments offered. And honestly, would you want them to pretend to believe, when they can't? False faith seems to me to be a bad thing.
Yes, false faith is bad. I like your (atheists) honesty, but I, myself, am honest also. Faith is a knowledge, but it is a knowledge of something that science still cannot comprehend. And you are not frightned because you don't believe God exists. If you would know He exists, you would probably be frightened.
 
How about the fact that humanity is now the dominant species? We wouldn't have the problems you talked about if we were still somewhere down there in the food chain.

We've virtually preserved the human genes by establishing dominance. No fear of being exterminated by another earth species. That's a very big achievement. And the tools to do so were provided by science. The motivation was given by religion. Now do with that as you will.

*goes off to pass around more of his genetic material*
 
Originally posted by TruthSeeker
But when you say that there is no God you stand all alone as the only kind of intelligent being in the universe, thus making yourself the greatest of all beings.

I would be extremely surprised if we were the only intelligence in this vast cosmos, and in all likelihood many have a jump on us in superiority. They will most likely find us first. But we are discussing a creator, not just other intelligence.

And which achivements you are talking about? Polution? Violence? Confusion? Certainly not... Then which ones??

You can't be blind to the incredible achievements we've made since the beginnings of civilization, can you? Do I really need to list off the positive things mankind has done? Is society a perfectly good thing, no...but the bad things don't cancel them out.


Yes, false faith is bad. I like your (atheists) honesty, but I, myself, am honest also. Faith is a knowledge, but it is a knowledge of something that science still cannot comprehend. And you are not frightned because you don't believe God exists. If you would know He exists, you would probably be frightened.

Faith is belief without empirical evidence. The fact that you believe it enough to convince yourself it's true doesn't make it true. But if it works for you, fine. Plain old humanism works fine for me.

If God was a benevolent god whose existence could be shown to skeptical minds such as mine, why would I be frightened? I'd actually find it both fascinating and puzzling, puzzling in that he could have done a better job of piecing a religious foundation.
 
NOTE: Additional Material Enclosed

Well I'm glad that a variety of people have responded.

To clarify, this isn't actually a *UC Berkeley* course - how could that be? Rather, it's a course sponsored by the pastor and leaders of the "sister-church" of a ~400-person on-campus Christian group.

ConsequentAtheist - I'm going to read the articles tonight. No harm in that.

As for those of you who wonder what "impersonal vs personal" meant, I guess it's my fault for not including the corresponding Week 1 material - that is, the actual "lesson," or "brainwashing" as you insist, that this material was meant to accompany. That's on the next post.

And Jaxom, these two arguments, if you're referring to Kalam and "Moral", aren't the *strongest* per se, they're only two in a *vast array* of arguments on *both* sides of the coin... the idea is to think of them as such, so that they might spark your curiosity... or something*. *
Why is the human species always belittled by religion? Why is it arrogant to see humanity as something more than a child of a god, told what to do?
I'm not going to try to show you that the Bible doesn't imply this, since I myself am not a Christian (that is, one who gives total control of his or her life to Christ) and I'm not going to go about defending a position I personally haven't accepted... that's what I did last time, and it isn't to be repeated. I can say with confidence that there are many people more knowledgeable than myself (and yourself, about Christianity) who no longer look at it that way. Again, it looks like I'm taking sides, but it's not strictly about who's right or wrong, or clashing egos, or anything like that... at least it shouldn't be. Tell me if I'm not making sense.

EDIT: jaxom, the Bible states in certain places (forgot the exact books, sorry) that man is "slightly below the angels", "created in the image of God," and so on... as well as critically examining the depths to which humans are capable of descending... so perhaps your understanding of Christianity is a shallow one?

EDIT 2: Actually, I'm having doubts about whether I should include said material: it would be difficult to post here in its entirety, and cutting it down or omitting parts - even with the best of intentions - is still a value judgment, and has consequences that I'm not about to face.

EDIT 3: jaxom,
I'd actually find it both fascinating and puzzling, puzzling in that he could have done a better job of piecing a religious foundation.
A "better job," you say? Better according to God's purposes, or to yours?
 
Last edited:
truthseeker,

You ARE self-centered aren't you?
I don't know what you have in your mind when you say this. I'm clearly dependent on the laws of the universe for my survival. And I'm interested in survival just like you.

The very atheist thing of "there is no supernatural being" implies in the atheists mind that "there is no one better, greater or more powerful then me".
It is you that is making the implications not me. We have no idea what other intelligences exist in the universe. We do not have enough information to say whether there is anything greater than us, including any potential gods.

The real issue is the enormous theist arrogance for stating that humans are so important and magnificent that they have the special personal attention of a super being who created the universe.

You make yourselves gods when you say there is no being greater then you (men). And yet, you have a life that was given to you...
Like I said we don't know what is out there yet, and neither do you. And neither can you say that your life was given to you. That is just theist arrogance again.

Prove that what secretasianman said is wrong... or you are not very believable...
I've done this so many times for you in my past 3000+ posts that I think it is time you read some atheist literature so at least you might come up to speed with the basics of something you oppose so much but still haven't a clue as to what you are talking about. I've read the bible so why don't you have the courtesy to read and properly understand the atheist viewpoint? Or are you afraid that you might learn something that will destroy your dreams and fantasies?

We know at least one big bang has occurred, and we known infinity must exist, but we have nothing to indicate that a supernatural being exists. Given what we KNOW then of course infinite big bangs is more plausible.

You mean, given what you BELIEVE TO KNOW it is more plausible...
Belief based on evidence is rational belief. What's your point?

Are you saying that no big bang has occurred despite all the scientific evidence that indicates that it has?

And as for infinity then as I have shown many times already this must exist otherwise nothing could ever have begun and we couldn't be here.

There is as yet zero evidence for the supernatural so you have zero plausibility for saying it is a possible cause of anything.

I'm pretty sure that some 2000 years from now people will look at those theories and laugh at them....
Yes of course why limit your arrogance to just theology, you are of course superior to all the leading scientists in the field of cosmology right?

First, we thought that the whole universe was our planet. Then, we thought that the whole universe was our solar system. Then, we thought that the whole universe was our universe. Now we think that there are other universes and they are all inside one bigger universe.
Ok you are catching onto the possibilities of what might be reality here. Of course we also know that galaxies group together into clusters and then there are super clusters of them as well. But think of our big bang as just a bubble, like a single bubble in a bottle of soda pop. And then perhaps we can speculate about groups of bubbles and super clusters of bubbles etc.

Don't you see that no matter how deep you go it just keeps going?
Could be and we have no reason to think that it doesn't. You seem to want to impose a limit to what we can discover just to satisfy your fantasy of a god.

Yet, where is infinity. Is the universe outside ours infinite?
No idea. Infinity means no boundaries.

If we cannot detect that, how can you say such thing?
It is speculation just like your ideas for a god. The big difference between us is that I know I'm speculating, whereas you think your speculation of a god is something that really exists.

Science will NEVER find an answer since it limits itself by its own laws. Not very smart indeed.
Science is only limited by what can be shown to be true. That seems smart to me. You on the other hand do not limit yourself to reality and truth but prefer to claim that your fantasies and delusions are real. Now that is really dumb.

Maybe it's time for a revolution...?
Yup if truthseeker gets a grasp on reality then that will be a revolution for sciforums, and the universe, no matter how large it really is.
 
Cris - as you must understand by now, our time is too limited to read every book casually named by this or that sci-forums member (although many haven't been here as long as you have)... so if you can try to paraphrase the points made by the book, then please do. I'll look for some book reviews.
 
secret,

What is the course title? Is it at UC Berkely? Is it under Religious Studies.
 
Re: NOTE: Additional Material Enclosed

Originally posted by secretasianman
perhaps your understanding of Christianity is a shallow one?

Perhaps, but I have read a lot on both sides. All I can do is give my impression thus far.

A "better job," you say? Better according to God's purposes, or to yours?

True enough...I cannot propose to know the reason and purpose behind said god's actions, given that they would be unknowable. But if the evidence was more convincing, there'd be less atheists.
 
Cris - no, it's not a course sponsored by UC Berkeley, it's not a decal or seminar or anything... I guess "Berkeley" was a geographical statement more than anything... and yes it was shortsighted. Would you like to continue this discussion via PM?
 
Back
Top