Christian response to the question of the Kalamas

[greenberg]

In the Buddhist Pali Canon, there is the story of the people called Kalamas. They were perplexed by the multitude of doctrines they have heard from various teachers and didn't know whom to believe or on what grounds.

They went to speak to the Buddha and this is how they presented their question, as accounted in the Kalama Sutta (Kesaputta is a name of a town):

As they sat there, the Kalamas of Kesaputta said to the Blessed One, "Lord, there are some priests & contemplatives who come to Kesaputta. They expound & glorify their own doctrines, but as for the doctrines of others, they deprecate them, revile them, show contempt for them, & disparage them. And then other priests & contemplatives come to Kesaputta. They expound & glorify their own doctrines, but as for the doctrines of others, they deprecate them, revile them, show contempt for them, & disparage them. They leave us absolutely uncertain & in doubt: Which of these venerable priests & contemplatives are speaking the truth, and which ones are lying?"

The situation of some -even many- people nowadays is similar: From books, newspapers, television, formal education, personal encounters with people, public debates, online forums, tradition, hearsay and what other sources of information there might be - we know from these various sources about various religious, philosophical, scientific and other teachings about the meaning of life, about things that one should and should not do.
This variety can be perplexing.

The Buddha answered the question of the Kalamas thus:

[The Buddha:] "Of course you are uncertain, Kalamas. Of course you are in doubt. When there are reasons for doubt, uncertainty is born. So in this case, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering' — then you should abandon them. ”

...

"Now, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' — then you should enter & remain in them.

I would be interested in hearing what the Christian response to the question of the Kalamas would be.



Thank you.

 

[greenberg]

No takers?

 

[Lori_7]

my answer is exactly what i've been saying to you all along. you shouldn't take another person's word for it, you should experience it for yourself. there's nothing wrong with a contemplation of testimony, but your beliefs should not be based upon testimony but on your own life experience. the holy spirit is the voice of discernment that resides in each of us. but many of us are so busy listening to our own voice or the voices of others we don't pay attention to him. the fact is that truths can be found everywhere. in what is right and wrong, good and evil, natural and supernatural, and in many scriptures. to see the truth, stop looking for someone else to show you, and look on the inside of yourself.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

my answer is exactly what i've been saying to you all along. you shouldn't take another person's word for it, you should experience it for yourself. there's nothing wrong with a contemplation of testimony, but your beliefs should not be based upon testimony but on your own life experience. the holy spirit is the voice of discernment that resides in each of us. but many of us are so busy listening to our own voice or the voices of others we don't pay attention to him. the fact is that truths can be found everywhere. in what is right and wrong, good and evil, natural and supernatural, and in many scriptures. to see the truth, stop looking for someone else to show you, and look on the inside of yourself.

*************
M*W: Lori, you should take pause and reflect upon your innermost spirit, and commune with the god you believe in (who/whatever he may be); the god who created you to live and breathe upon this Earthly plane with the rest of us; and ask him what, just what, purpose did he have for creating you in this life to be such an ignorant bitch?

 

[Lori_7]

mw, go stalk someone else ok? no i know, go congratulate someone on being an atheist.

 

[stretched]

I would be interested in hearing what the Christian response to the question of the Kalamas would be.

I do not follow the Christian religion or any other belief system, but a question?

Is the Buddha saying test the truth through personal experience, or is he inferring that the enlightened will/should be able to discern the truth?

 

[Medicine*Woman]

mw, go stalk someone else ok? no i know, go congratulate someone on being an atheist.

*************
M*W: You can't answer my questions, so you say that I'm stalking you. So typical of you. Let me make this clear. If I intended to "stalk" someone, it would be for their knowledge and intelligence and what I could learn from them. You, however, do not know anything that is worthy of learning. You're a broken record.

Since you cannot answer my questions, you are of no use to me. Therefore, you'll be glad to know that I have put you on Ignore. You are just a big waste of time on this forum.

 

[lightgigantic]

*************
M*W: You can't answer my questions, so you say that I'm stalking you. So typical of you. Let me make this clear. If I intended to "stalk" someone, it would be for their knowledge and intelligence and what I could learn from them. You, however, do not know anything that is worthy of learning. You're a broken record.

Since you cannot answer my questions, you are of no use to me. Therefore, you'll be glad to know that I have put you on Ignore. You are just a big waste of time on this forum.

pssst! - ever heard of PM?
:bugeye:

 

[Medicine*Woman]

pssst! - ever heard of PM?
:bugeye:

*************
M*W: pssst! - ever heard of MYOB?

 

[lightgigantic]

*************
M*W: pssst! - ever heard of MYOB?

hence that's the beauty of PM's!!

 

[Lori_7]

*************
M*W: You can't answer my questions, so you say that I'm stalking you. So typical of you. Let me make this clear. If I intended to "stalk" someone, it would be for their knowledge and intelligence and what I could learn from them. You, however, do not know anything that is worthy of learning. You're a broken record.

Since you cannot answer my questions, you are of no use to me. Therefore, you'll be glad to know that I have put you on Ignore. You are just a big waste of time on this forum.

you're question? you're question is nothing but an ifantile display of hate but your show did serve to prove the point i was making perfectly, so thank you.

 

[greenberg]

Is the Buddha saying test the truth through personal experience, or is he inferring that the enlightened will/should be able to discern the truth?

He seems to be saying neither of what you are suggesting. He speaks of qualities, which should be abandoned and which should be entered and remained in. He seems to say that such practice will then lead further in the right direction.

[The Buddha:] "Of course you are uncertain, Kalamas. Of course you are in doubt. When there are reasons for doubt, uncertainty is born. So in this case, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering' — then you should abandon them. ”

...

"Now, Kalamas, don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.' When you know for yourselves that, 'These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to welfare & to happiness' — then you should enter & remain in them.

 

[stretched]

He seems to be saying neither of what you are suggesting. He speaks of qualities, which should be abandoned and which should be entered and remained in. He seems to say that such practice will then lead further in the right direction

It`s just basic common sense is it not? A longwinded discourse on what is readily apparent?

This contemplative is our teacher.

If its smells like snake oil ...

 

[greenberg]

It`s just basic common sense is it not? A longwinded discourse on what is readily apparent?

All sort of things are "readily apparent" but this does not mean that people will automatically take them into consideration.
Conside rpollution - readily apparent, yet it takes so much to make people aware of it.

If its smells like snake oil ...

What's your point?

 

[stretched]

What's your point?

'These qualities are unskillful; these qualities are blameworthy; these qualities are criticized by the wise; these qualities, when adopted & carried out, lead to harm & to suffering' — then you should abandon them. ”

If it smells like snake oil ... abandon them. That is pretty obvious.

 

[greenberg]

You said -

This contemplative is our teacher.

If its smells like snake oil ...

You referred specifically to the notion "This contemplative is our teacher" -
Do you thereby mean to imply that the Buddha himself suggested that a person abandon Buddhism if they think it "smells like snake oil"?

 

[PsychoticEpisode]

I'm no Christian but........If they're already perplexed by a multitude of doctrines then what difference will a couple more make.

 

[stretched]

You said -



You referred specifically to the notion "This contemplative is our teacher" -
Do you thereby mean to imply that the Buddha himself suggested that a person abandon Buddhism if they think it "smells like snake oil"?

I was being unclear, sorry. I mean that theistic or religious experiences are subjective, so to one person it may be seen as leading to harm and suffering (ex: the Christian god smiting all and sundry, except the chosen race) and to another person, of the chosen race, the Christian god is fulfilling a promise. Perplexing no?

 

[greenberg]

I was being unclear, sorry. I mean that theistic or religious experiences are subjective, so to one person it may be seen as leading to harm and suffering (ex: the Christian god smiting all and sundry, except the chosen race) and to another person, of the chosen race, the Christian god is fulfilling a promise. Perplexing no?

Not really.

The instructions as the Buddha gave them are not of the same kind as the example you give above.

To put it simply: The underlying general idea in the Buddha's advice seems to be that progress is possible, and that it happens gradually. That if you continually "do your best", this will refine your discernment and you will be more able to recognize and do that which truly is for your benefit and which isn't. In this understanding, it doesn't matter where you start, what your original state is; what matters is that you continually strive to "do the best you can". "Doing your best" isn't something static or defined for your entire life; it is about asking yourself in each situation that you face "What is the best thing I can do here and now?" So that regardless whether you are healthy or sick, upbeat or feeling down - you can still "do your best" given the circumstances.

For example, if your peak performance is to run five miles, but today you're very tired, you can still "do your best" and run one mile or walk for an hour or whatever you can. Trying to run five miles no matter what would be wrong, just as it would be wrong to not do any exercising at all - all this, of course, given your specific athletic circumstances.

 

[Jenyar]

Hi Greenberg

In the end, everyone makes up his or her own mind, and telling them to do so makes little difference - unless it's another way to convince them of your own authority. Should people listen to someone who tells them to do the right thing?

But there was already something of the ideal of the Christian faith in Buddha's answer...

"...whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice. And the God of peace will be with you." (Philippians 4:7-9)​

Believers were also continually warned not to get caught up in doctrinal divisions (2 Timothy 2; Colossians 2; Titus 3); these letters were essentially Paul's answer to the question above, when it was posed by the first Christians. But doctrines and divisions happen despite good advice. People still come along saying 'follow MY good and MY way to welfare and happiness.' And people are confused despite their own convictions, because, arguably, no good belief system should be completely immune to good influence (wasn't the Buddha himself just one more contemplative 'teacher', in a sense?)

Personal responsibility to the greater good - that's a good guideline for keeping your head among many alternatives. But for a Christian, simply referring back to one's own moral compass cannot be enough. It makes every person his or her own authority, and no more right or wrong than any 'venerable priest or contemplative', all things being equal. So it only shifts the problem one degree over. For a contemplative religion, it might be good enough to leave the question hanging, because the process is the goal, but a Christian doesn't have that. He must also answer for himself the implied question: 'where is true North? And what makes me, simply by the 'virtue' of being me, a greater authority on truth than anyone else?'

The answer Christianity gives to this underlying question is inextricably bound up in its central message: the gospel of Jesus. For Jesus, simply being on your way to spiritual welfare and happiness - adrift in the glow, so to speak - wasn't an accurate measure of the truth of things. He asked his disciples to go where there was no glow and spread the word: God's will must enter man's spirit and work in him to achieve perfection (justification, rather than enlightenment), and it does so by God's grace alone, through God's template for humanity, namely Christ.

So every spiritual or religious and even civil duty - every 'good and praiseworthy thing' - is embodied in Christ, and he becomes the beginning and end of all ways to God. Doing these duties are right because they are God's will, not because they are our best efforts.

In other words, the final answer is bound up in who Christ was. One inherits the truth by following him. And only him; not any of his messengers. Which is why the New Testament exists and is used as a measurement, or canon, of reliable testimony concerning Jesus.

Whose answer might have been: "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."