China's Emergence As A Global Superpower

wesmorris said:
Oh.. and I just remembered from personal experience that it seems that generally manufacturers end up shying away from latin america because of quality issues.
What is your impression about the quality of Chinese goods here? I admit the quality has gone up, and this is due to tighter managerial controls at their factories, but do we see any high quality Chinese products? Cheap textiles: but not very durable.

I remember when I bought an umbrella in Beijing around the time of the Tiananmen Incident. Upon seeing that a foreignor was going to buy the product, the department store clerk opened up no less than half-a-dozen umbrellas in the store before she decided on the best one to sell me, so as to avoid selling a foreignor a common defective product. Even today, when I go in to buy a hot water heater, it is always tested before being sold. The pace of life is so slow in China that any pride in workmenship just doesn't seem to exist there. Perhaps the controls are tighter for exports.

The pace of life is so slow in china that many Chinese snicker at me when they see me rushing around all over the place to do this-and-that. I'm always being asked to sit down and enjoy a cup of tea - "This is our custom and tradition," they say. "Why the hurry or rush?" One cog in that massive Chinese iron wheel never makes it go faster as it slowly turns. But then again, this is the rural life, and in the larger cities times are changing. I've heard that the latest fad with the car craze in Beijing is now "drive-in theaters": they heard about it from us and want to experience it themselves, even though that went out decades ago here.
 
Alan Greenspan, via Valich:
"Some observers mistakenly believe that a marked increase in the exchange value of the Chinese renminbi (RMB) relative to the U.S. dollar would significantly increase manufacturing activity and jobs in the United States. I am aware of no credible evidence that supports such a conclusion."

Greenspan is correct. - No new US jobs. Other sources, who now server as suppliers of semi-finished goods, or raw materials, to China, will simply expand to be final product producers, and replace current US import of low-cost Chinese finished goods with those from Vietnam and other ASEAN nations. Perhaps even Brazil.*

In fact these new finished product makers may even be able to under cut Chinese prices (or those that China must soon charge as the Chinese workers begin to enjoy more of the fruits of their labors - not very likely while almost 2 million new workers (former farmers and their daughters) are looking for jobs in the cities each month, three sharing a one-bedroom apartment for a few years. Etc.) The possibility of even lower production cost in Vietnam, etc. is due to the fact that if they do go into final-stage production, their factories, inventory control systems, new infrastructure (roads, electric lines etc) will be more modern, efficient.

For example: After WW2, US steel production facilities were pre-WW2 designs, but rest of world either had none (like Brazil) or had to replace the destroyed old designs (like Japan and Europe) so of course, US produced steel could not compete. Back then, as now, the popular "quick fix" was to turn to Congress to get tariffs and quota walls thrown up to protect steel, instead of making even more efficient steel production facilities. Thus only a couple of years ago, 50 years after WW2, US steel still needed "emergency aid" from Congress. Finally, a few years ago, US steel was able to turn a small profit honestly, not because of any intelligent acts of theirs, but thanks to Chinese demand, the price of steel went up dramatically. Of course Brazilian and others with more modern plants, were turning a much better profits - so much so that they of course expanded production capacity and the price of steel is one of the few semi finished goods needed by China that has held steady in last few years.

SUMMARY: Greenspan is correct, Congress, as usual, is stupid. Any half-educated economist (since Adam Smith's time) knows everyone benefits economically by "free trade;" however, there are other considerations, in addition to economy. For example, Japan and China have a lot of people per hectar of fertile farmland, compared to Brazil et. al., but do not expect them to cease producing rice, even if Brazil can sell it to them at half the price.

To Valich: What is Chinese renminbi (RMB), and how does it differ from Yuan?
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*Brazil already exports two, very good, economical jet airplanes. One in the 50-70 seat size has been selling very well for about 8 years, and the new one in the 80 -110 seat range has sold dozens with 100s on order. The production rate of approximately a few per week, being the limit. China liked design so much that they are now jointly produce in new factory there. (But only for the Chinese market for at least many years.) However, last year, 86% of Brazil's 45 billion dollar trade surplus was from sale of agricultural products. - Don’t worry about “starving Chinese” as the farmers go to town's factories. - Brazil will gladly feed them in exchange for Chinese high-tech finished products, previously purchased from USA.
 
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valich said:
...The pace of life is so slow in china that many Chinese snicker at me when they see me rushing around all over the place to do this-and-that. I'm always being asked to sit down and enjoy a cup of tea - "This is our custom and tradition," they say. "Why the hurry or rush?" ...
First let me thank you for this and some recent posts. Please give more things you know personally, like the "umbrella buying experience."

Interesting your notice that the pace is slower even in world’s fastest growing economy. I have had the same experience in Brazil. People here enjoy life more as they go. (I am learning from them.) I will never forget how happy a shoeless, nearly toothless man, dressed in torn rags that could hardly be called "clothes" was when "his" soccer team won some local championship. Even though he would be sleeping on the sidewalk that night, as he always does, I am sure he had pleasant dreams.

A story (in my Portuguese exercise book) captures it well. I greatly compress it here:
Poor man, sitting on riverbank, is fishing as his urban brother tries to tell him to get some ambition: Shave, go to school, get city job, work hard, marry, have kids, retire well, as I will in 20 years. (Each of these is full sentence, with poor man replying between each: "And then what?") The response of his urban brother to the last "And then what?" is:

"I plan to go fishing when I retire."
 
Billy T said:
Finally, a few years ago, US steel was able to turn a small profit honestly, not because of any intelligent acts of theirs, but thanks to Chinese demand, the price of steel went up dramatically. Of course Brazilian and others with more modern plants, were turning a much better profits - so much so that they of course expanded production capacity and the price of steel is one of the few semi finished goods needed by China that has held steady in last few years.

To Valich: What is Chinese renminbi (RMB), and how does it differ from Yuan?
It would be interesting and useful to examine a comparison of the major world steel producers and where their exports go, or, at least in the case of China, where China imports most of it's steel from. I provided a table showing a breakdown of China's major trading partners, but a more detailed breakdown showing what those products are, that China imports and exports, and where they come and go to, would give us an indication of how the goods and technology is distibuted between these countries (agriculture, raw materials, or finished goods).

The "yuan" is the Chinese word for dollar while RMB is the acronym for RenMinBi. Renminbi a Chinese word that literally translates as "the people's money," so it refers to the currency as a whole. In trading money, they use the letters US or USD to refer to one United States dollar (the "greenback") and for years they used the letters RMB to refer to one yuan, but for some reason I now see the letters CNY popping up to refer to the samething (CNY is acronym for CHinese Yuan). So when you read the words yuan or RMB or CNY in the news, they all refer to the same thing and are all equivalent in value. Currently the yuan is at US $1 = CNY(RMB) $8.06.

Hong Kong: HKD (Hong Kong Dollar)
Taiwan: NT (New Taiwan Dollar) or TWD (Taiwan Dollar)
Japan: JPY (Japan Yen)
South Korea: KRW (Korean Won)

As a side note: Taiwan's currency, even though still called one yuan (or one kuai) in Chinese, is referred to as the NT (New Taiwan Dollar) on the international currency exchange market, but also I'm now seeing the letters TWD (TaiWan Dollar) popping up to refer to the same thing.

The NT is pegged to the dollar and is one of the highest valued Asian currencies (US $1 = NT $32). However, when I first went to Taiwan in the early 90's it was dirt cheap at 1:44, and you could buy just about anything you wanted almost just as cheap as you could in Mainland China. So there has been a dramatic upward trend in the value of NT over the last 15 years - mostly due to pressure from the U.S. Taiwan also has one of the largest foreign currency reserves in the world (dropped from second place to third). However, if something bad were to happen to the country, say an attack from the Mainland?, then the NT would take a sharp nose dive. Thus this high foreign currency reserve factors into one of the reasons why the Mainland doesn't attack:

Japan's Foreign Currency Reserves: $840 billion
China's Foreign Currency Reserves: $610 billion
Taiwan's Foreign Currency Reserves: $242 billion
Korea's Foreign Exchange Reserves: $202 billion
(in U.S. dollar equivalents)

Source: "Excessive Asian Reserves?," by Christopher Lingle, 14 April 2005.
http://www.suite101.com/print_message.cfm/investing/97747/1083645
 
Billy T said:
Interesting your notice that the pace is slower even in world’s fastest growing economy.
I'm surprised to hear that you find this surprising. I assume all communist countries move at a slower pace compared to competitive capitalist countries. For years China was known as the "Iron Rice Bowl" because the people could always count on the communist government for lifelong employment. There was no such thing as "to be layed off" ten years ago there, but that is all changing now. The Iron Rice Bowl has cracked. But that huge iron Chinese wheel just slowly grinds along and Chinese would laugh at anyone who thinks they could stop it. That's why a major cultural "faux pas" (stupid blunderous mistake) in China is to ever outwardly show anger. It just shows your stupidity, gets you no where, and losses your credibility - although it will get you a lot of attention to be laughed at! And in the end: nothing has changed.

A sad experience - maybe I shouldn't even mention this, because it hurt so much that tears roll down now as I write - is the superstitious beliefs and omens. For a year-and-a-half I took care of my dog as he was dying of kidney failure. To me, it is bad enough that in some parts of China they eat dog as a delicacy cuisine, but to have them always refer to my gentle friendly elkhound as a vicious "Wolf Dog" and constantly asking me "Does your dog bite" - the most gentlest dog in the world! Well, anyways. When he finally passed away I buried him in front of my house next to a small pond. I surrounded the hole that I dug with dog biscuits and bones and then layed the earth back in. I planted two rows of flowers above his grave and watered them everyday, and gradually, as time went buy, I felt better about it. I was so sad that some of my friends even bought me a new puppy - a Border Collie that I still have in China but couldn't bring back to the U.S. because he has no papers. It took me a year-and-a-half to get over Bram's loss until I was finally secure emotionally enough to obtain another Elkhound, and still, at first I felt some resentment towards her, although now we are closely bonded - inseperable. However, before this, I returned to China, thinking about moving back. As soon as I arrived I headed straight for Bram's grave. The bastard next door had dug his body up and tossed it into the garbage - superstition. I was so sick and upset that I returned to Hong Kong immediately, then back to the U.S., and am only now contemplating returning.
 
valich said:
The enhanced integration of China into the world trading system is having a notable effect on Asia's trade with the rest of the world and on trade within Asia. After having risen rapidly through the 1990s, U.S. imports from Asia excluding China have flattened since 2000. This has occurred as production within Asia has evolved, with the final stages of assembly and exporting to the United States and elsewhere becoming increasingly concentrated in China. As a consequence, because exports by country are recorded on a gross basis rather than as value added, the widening of the United States' bilateral trade deficit with China, measured gross, has largely been in lieu of wider deficits with other Asian economies, including Japan. Measured by value added, our bilateral deficits with China would have been far less, and our bilateral deficits with other Asian exporters would have been far more.

Ah, interesting. The big picture I'm getting from this is that a rise in the yuan wouldn't affect America's overall trade deficit, but rather distribute the Sino-American imbalance across the rest of Asia and possibly Latin America. Makes sense; there's planty of underdeveloped areas in the world besides China.

valich said:
The broad tariff on Chinese goods that has recently been proposed, should it be implemented, would significantly lower U.S. imports from China but would comparably raise U.S. imports from other low-cost sources of supply. At only slightly higher prices than prevail at present, U.S. imports of textiles, light manufactures, assembled computers, toys, and similar products would in part shift from China as the final assembler to other emerging-market economies in Asia and, perhaps, in Latin America as well. Few, if any, American jobs would be protected."

This is also interesting. On the one hand, it's not surprising that tariffs against China alone wouldn't be enough to stimulate US manufacturing jobs. But on the other hand it's interesting that for a very small increase in prices, the US could screw China out of the finished-products game, radically redistributing production and trade across Asia. Unlikely to happen, as the US is very committed to free trade, and so is unlikely to levy a tariff without some kind of extreme (probably military) provocation, but still...

valich said:
Economically, in the short-run, this does not look good for the United States.

What do you mean by that? China's economy is certainly going to grow more quickly than Americas in the short run, but I don't see where the US is in any serious trouble, economically speaking. We will eventually have to put our house in order when it comes to the budget deficit, but it's the same situation we were in back at the end of the 1980's. And, sure enough, the 1990's ended up being a banner decade for the American economy...

valich said:
However, the U.S. seems to be the world leader in advanced technology, and the scientific development of new technologies - if sustained - should give us an edge of competition to contend with worldwide. We will still continue to have an edge in providing China with the necessary expertise in both the scientific, manufacturing, management, and service sector that they need to deal with their internal massive internal problems.

Yeah, this is a very important point. Would you rather have 500 factories producing consumer goods, or 50 factories producing the machines that the 500 factories use to make the consumer goods? I'd certainly go for the latter.
 
I don't want to end on such a sad note so let me say something about the population. Hong Kong was under British rule for 156 years before they finally turned it back over to China, and the much more civilized manners and polite etiquette of the Hong Kong Chinese today still stand to show it. When I lived in Taiwan, I could immediately tell the difference between a Mainland Chinese and a Hong Kong Chinese at the airports because the mainlander's clothing never fit right - usually huge and baggy - nor were their suits ever ironed. I can still always tell the difference today when they are in America, if not by the clothing, then by the dialect.

In Mainland China the hoards of masses are so huge that at the train stations in Guangzhou and Beijing they actually posted the People's Liberation Army soldiers in front of the counters, standing on top railings with electric cattle prods to hold the crowd back. It's been years since I took a train in China, as I don't have the patience anymore to push-and-shove, but they probably don't did this anymore, else we'd be reading about in the papers. Still, the concept of forming a line (queuing up) does not exist at these large train stations, or when you want to board a bus. The bus pulls up and the hoard of masses follows alongside the doors until the bus comes to a halt, then everyone squeezes to get in. In contrast to this, though, they do queue up in Hong Kong and Taiwan.
 
quadraphonics said:
What do you mean by that? China's economy is certainly going to grow more quickly than Americas in the short run, but I don't see where the US is in any serious trouble, economically speaking. We will eventually have to put our house in order when it comes to the budget deficit, but it's the same situation we were in back at the end of the 1980's. And, sure enough, the 1990's ended up being a banner decade for the American economy... QUOTE]Well that's what I'm saying. No doubt China's economy will grow more quickly than America's, most probably even in the longrun. I was saying that the planned redistribution of their foreign currency reserves away from the U.S. dollar, and yes also combined with their faster economic growth (over 10% this year?), does not look too good for the U.S., at least in the shortrun. I think we're in agreement here? In fact, I'd say it doesn't look all that rozy for the U.S. in the longrun either, but who can tell or look into the future that far in advance?
 
The world's a lot different now then it was in the 80's and 90's. We've got the EU organized now to contend with, the Asian Tigers are still on the rise, but most important is that giant China economic machine. Compare the economic growth rates between us and them over the lastten years.

"The dollar, on net, has declined more than 10 percent since early 2002. Inflation and inflation premiums embedded in long-term interest rates--the typical symptoms of a weak currency--appeared subdued, and the vast international savings transfer to finance U.S. investment had occurred without measurable disruption to international financial markets. Two years later, little has changed except that our current account deficit has grown still larger. Most policy makers marvel at the seeming ease with which the United States continues to finance its current account deficit.

Of course, deficits that cumulate to ever-increasing net external debt, with its attendant rise in servicing costs, cannot persist indefinitely. At some point, foreign investors will balk at a growing concentration of claims against U.S. residents, even if rates of return on investment in the United States remain competitively high, and will begin to alter their portfolios. In addition, efforts by U.S. residents to address their domestic imbalances will presumably contribute to a move away from current account imbalance.

In all instances, a current account balance essentially results from a wide-ranging interactive process that involves the production and allocation of goods, services, and incomes among the residents of a country and those of the rest of the world. The outcome of the process is reflected in the full array of domestic and international product and asset prices, including interest rates.

The rise of the U.S. current account deficit over the past decade appears to have coincided with a pronounced new phase of globalization that is characterized by a major acceleration in U.S. productivity growth and the decline in what economists call home bias. In brief, home bias is the parochial tendency of persons, though faced with comparable or superior foreign opportunities, to invest domestic savings in the home country. The decline in home bias is reflected in savers increasingly reaching across national borders to invest in foreign assets. The rise in U.S. productivity growth attracted much of those savings toward investments in the United States. The greater rates of productivity growth in the United States, compared with still-subdued rates abroad, have apparently engendered corresponding differences in risk-adjusted expected rates of return and hence in the demand for U.S.-based assets.

Home bias was very much in evidence for a half century following World War II. Domestic saving was directed predominantly toward domestic investment. Because the difference between a nation's domestic saving and domestic investment is the near-algebraic equivalent of that nation's current account balance, external imbalances were small. However, starting in the 1990s, home bias began to decline discernibly, the consequence of a dismantling of restrictions on capital flows and the advance of information and communication technologies that has effectively shrunk the time and distance that separate markets around the world. The vast improvements in these technologies have broadened investors' vision to the point that foreign investment appears less risky than it did in earlier times....

However, the component of those broad measures that captures the share of net foreign financing of the balances of individual unconsolidated U.S. economic entities - our current account deficit - has increased from negligible in the early 1990s to more than 6 percent of our GDP today. The acceleration of U.S. productivity, which dates from the mid-1990s, was an important factor in this process....

Regrettably, we do not as yet have a firm grasp of the implications of cross-border financial imbalances. If we did, our forecasting record on the international adjustment process would have been better in recent years. I presume that with time we will learn. In the interim, whatever the significance and possible negative implications of the current account deficit, maintaining economic flexibility, as I have stressed before, may be the most effective initiative to counter such risks....

If the currently disturbing drift toward protectionism is contained and markets remain sufficiently flexible, changing terms of trade, interest rates, asset prices, and exchange rates will cause U.S. saving to rise, reducing the need for foreign finance and reversing the trend of the past decade toward increasing reliance on it. If, however, the pernicious drift toward fiscal instability in the United States and elsewhere is not arrested and is compounded by a protectionist reversal of globalization, the adjustment process could be quite painful for the world economy."

Source: "International imbalances," Remarks by Chairman Alan Greenspan, the Federal Reserve Board, before the Advancing Enterprise Conference, London, Dec. 2, 2005. http://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/speeches/2005/200512022/default.htm
 
The way I interpret the above is that unless we can keep financing our account deficit, which is likely to keep increasing, and to increase our savings rate, then our economy will decline. As it is right now, China is the major funding source that finances our account deficit, and even this contributes to interest rate decisions. If China switches their foreign exchange reserves away from the U.S. dollar - as planned - then who else is left in the world to continue to finance our huge increasing debt that holds our economy up?

As I said, I am no economist. It get's too complicated for me. However, I did study the theories of Keynes and Friedman. But the more complicated the invarying straight-line or curved graphs and equations became, the more I balked at their generalized seemingly simplistic assumptions about GDP, exchange rates, parity, price indexes, international trade, etc., as "invarying" dependent variables. Look at the stock market - one simple corporation stock. Yet who can predict it?

On the other hand, Greenspan never seems to make assumptions like this and is not afraid to say that he doesn't know. You read his analyses and there's a lot of "however if this happens then..." and "but then again it depends on...," etc. Perhaps this is why he is so highly regarded and respected for his insight.
 
The Top Ten Reasons Why the US Economy Will Collapse:
(And by collapse, we mean go into a serious depression.)

#1. The U.S. government is currently running a budget deficit of $1.8 billion/day. Too much deficit will create a weaker American dollar and cripple the US economy.
#2. The US Nat'l Debt is $8 trillion+. It has to be paid back eventually by raising taxes.
#3. Oil prices are $60+ per crude barrel, there is a shortage of oil refineries and demand is growing due to more SUVs/trucks.
#4. China's economy is now bigger than the United States and China is now the centre of the global economy.
#5. China's trade exports out-matches the United States (ie. they can build cars/trucks/SUVs for half the price).
#6. English is no longer the international business language. Mandarin Chinese is now more important.
#7. Global warming is causing the US Wheat Belt to turn into desert.
#8. US universities aren't creating enough graduates to compete on the global market. Tuition is too expensive and there isn't enough university professors.
#9. The babyboomers are retiring, creating a shortage of skilled workers.
#10. George W. Bush failed Econ 101. He was too busy snorting cocaine when at Yale.
http://www.lilithgallery.com/articles/2005/USeconomic_collapse.html

"While rising Japanese and Chinese official reserves are absorbing U.S. Treasury bonds, raw material and energy prices have boomed to unprecedented levels, lifting the corresponding currencies....

China's rapid growth and global economic integration have sealed the bi-directional nature of macroeconomic interdependence. Concern regarding a possible "China shock"--focusing on worries about energy prices, U.S. Treasury bond yields and China's import growth--shows the extent to which global macroeconomic interdependence has changed. As an important net swing exporter/importer, China can destabilize raw commodity and manufactured goods markets.

The Chinese authorities, having pegged the renminbi at just under 8.3 per dollar since 1995, use the dollar peg to "clear" their labor market by transferring unskilled labor from the rural hinterland into urban areas. While it is becoming clear that the supply of unskilled labor is not unlimited, low wage costs and rising local demand have attracted record foreign direct investment inflows (FDI) and stimulated net exports, resulting in growing official dollar reserves, which are subsequently invested in low-coupon U.S. Treasury bonds. Hence, China is perceived as a producer of not only "cheap" goods but also "cheap" savings.

China, and Asia in general, are thus key engines for global growth and, furthermore, will continue to have a growing influence in the world economy. The G7 meeting failed to trigger more exchange-rate flexibility for the renminbi. Thus, China's high-reserve policy and limited exchange-rate flexibility will continue to have systemic repercussions for the global monetary system....

The acquisition of large amounts of foreign assets by the Chinese official sector has raised the country's global cyclical, financial and macroeconomic clout. China will continue to dampen the inflationary pressures that may arise from unsterilized currency intervention through investment abroad, often with systemic repercussions. The favorable macroeconomic background of the past few years cannot be sustained for several reasons. Inflationary pressures have started to develop in real estate and other assets in the U.S. and China, with the monetary authorities responding through rising interest rates. Implied volatility indicators and extremely low-risk premiums on peripheral assets signal excessive risk taking by investors. Spreads on emerging-market bonds have shrunk to levels not seen since the period directly following the 1997 Asian crisis."

Source: "Asia's Role In Macroeconomic Interdependence," Forbes, March 1, 2005
http://www.forbes.com/business/2005/03/01/cz_0301oxan_macrointerdependence.html
 
valich said:
I was saying that the planned redistribution of their foreign currency reserves away from the U.S. dollar,

I don't think you'll see a huge reduction in dollar reserves. They're moving to a "basket" or currencies, including the Euro, but the dollar is still a big piece of the "basket." It's also been speculated by many that this move is simply cosmetic, and that no serious change in the yuan's exchange rate will be allowed. Only time will tell...

valich said:
and yes also combined with their faster economic growth (over 10% this year?), does not look too good for the U.S., at least in the shortrun.

Just below 10%, actually... but moreover, why is a growing Chinese economy a problem for the United States? I don't see how development in China implies that the US must suffer any kind of collapse. On the contrary, a bigger Chinese economy provides a whole slew of new opportunities for trade. Economix development is usually win-win for everyone involved.
 
valich said:
#1. The U.S. government is currently running a budget deficit of $1.8 billion/day. Too much deficit will create a weaker American dollar and cripple the US economy.

Which is why Congress has already started passing spending cuts, and refused to extend the Bush tax cuts. The US isn't some kind of mindless beast that's going to drive itself off a cliff...

valich said:
#2. The US Nat'l Debt is $8 trillion+. It has to be paid back eventually by raising taxes.

Again, foreign debt is typically repaid by selling domestic assets, not by directly taxing the US citizenry. Another option is to simply print money, although that will of course lead to inflation. Some combination of all three is most likely; the point is not to pay off all of the debt, just enough to restore confidence amongst creditors.Just to add some perspective, note that if the US dedicated 10% of its GDP to paying down debt, it could cover that $8 Trillion in like 6 years.

valich said:
#3. Oil prices are $60+ per crude barrel, there is a shortage of oil refineries and demand is growing due to more SUVs/trucks.

SUV and truck demand have taken a nose dive in the past year. Hence the crisis at GM and the 6-month waiting list for hybrid vehicles. GE has made alternative energy and efficient technology their banner issues; the US in general is falling all over itself to cut oil dependency, although such things take quite a while to accomplish. Also, as production in the Gulf of Mexico and Iraq are restored over the coming years, oil prices should stabilize. They aren't going to come down in the long run, but it would be a mistake to extrapolate the jumps we've seen in the past couple years too far into the future.

valich said:
#4. China's economy is now bigger than the United States and China is now the centre of the global economy.

As mentioned repeatedly in this very thread, the US economy is substantially larger than that of China. I don't know that any one nation can claim to be the "centre of the global economy," but I like the characterization of China as the world's factory, and America as the world's market. I think it's due to one of those NYT columnists, Friedman or Krugman...

valich said:
#5. China's trade exports out-matches the United States (ie. they can build cars/trucks/SUVs for half the price).

Yeah, China is a big exporter and the US is a big importer... but so what? Japan and Europe have been big importers for as long as anybody can remember, and it hasn't slowed them down much...

valich said:
#6. English is no longer the international business language. Mandarin Chinese is now more important.

At this point I'm starting to suspect this list was written by a Chinese nationalist, possibly even a party official...

valich said:
#7. Global warming is causing the US Wheat Belt to turn into desert.

Riiiiiight. You guys do realize that crops in the US are watered by irrigation systems, not by direct rainfall right? For example, there's a big agricultural area called El Centro about 50 miles east of where I am now, right on the border of Mexico, in the middle of an *actual* desert. This isn't a problem, since an aqueduct brings in all the necessary water, so it doesn't matter a whit whether you're in the middle of a desert or not. In any case, China has far, far more severe problems with environment and food resources than the US does. In fact, American food producers are very excited at the prospects for selling food to China, which can't come anywhere near supplying its own people.

valich said:
#8. US universities aren't creating enough graduates to compete on the global market. Tuition is too expensive and there isn't enough university professors.

That's just silly. More Americans are going to college now than at any point in history. And where does the rest of the world send their brightest students to learn the latest stuff? You guessed it...

valich said:
#9. The babyboomers are retiring, creating a shortage of skilled workers.

Hardly. Their retirement will place a large burden on Social Security, as there will be a higher ratio of retirees to workers. But the US has one of the best-educated workforces in the world. Far better educated than that of China (or you wouldn't be able to pay Chinese pennies on the dollar for their work). And, again, the US workforce as a whole has been getting MORE educated since WWII, not less. There is a change of emphasis away from science and engineering towards medicine, business and law, but that's hardly a big problem.

valich said:
#10. George W. Bush failed Econ 101. He was too busy snorting cocaine when at Yale.

Now that's a serious piece of economic analysis if I've ever seen one. At any rate, Bush isn't the chairman of the federal reserve, or the secretary of the treasury, so I'm not terribly worried...
 
quadraphonics said:
That's just silly. More Americans are going to college now than at any point in history. And where does the rest of the world send their brightest students to learn the latest stuff? You guessed it...

You can view it the other way too. There will plenty of american PhDs applying for my position, but still they picked me.

Why?

Because I want to learn the latest stuff? Or because they picked me?
 
quadraphonics said:
Again, foreign debt is typically repaid by selling domestic assets, not by directly taxing the US citizenry.

That's just silly. More Americans are going to college now than at any point in history. And where does the rest of the world send their brightest students to learn the latest stuff? You guessed it.
The Chinese economic growth was expected to be 9.3% in 2005 but was readjusted at the end to be slightly over 10% (I skimmed across the article while surfing so I'll try to retrace the source). The OECD expects the Chinese economy to grow by 9.4% in 2006,9.5% in 2007. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4541220.stm
Still that's a considerable difference to ours that has hovered around 3% since 2000!

"Foreign debt is typically repaid by selling domestic assets." That's a first that I've ever heard. You'll have to cite a source on that one for me to believe it. Still, and if per chance they did do this then what do we do when we run out of assets? Borrow assets instead? Either way - dumb policy.

"More Americans are going to college now..." Yes, but what do they study? "Let'sParty 101"! "Spring Break Yahoo"! Go to any large respectable university on the weekends and look through the library to see who are the ones that are studying there till the wee hours at night - mostly Asians and Indians - while the Americans are out hitting the bars. The trend of Chinese dreaming to come to the United States for further study is now over. It's gone. Kaput. Over. Sure, some still will come, but not like before. The trend now is to stay home, study hard, and make a contribution to the motherland. Been there, done that. Chinese Universities are now top-notch: gaining similar recognition to our Ivory League universities in the U.S.. Beijing University is known as Chinese Harvard, it's high-engineer graduate neighbor Qinghua University is dubbed the MIT of China, and both universities as well as a host of others have sister relations with Harvard, Yale, and countless other Ivory League Universities here that exchange teachers every year, with over 50 more top-notch universities now under construction.
 
quadraphonics said:
That's just silly. More Americans are going to college now than at any point in history. And where does the rest of the world send their brightest students to learn the latest stuff? You guessed it...
Chinese is on the move and moving at record speed. Look at their space program: first astronaut out in 2003 with moon landing scheduled by 2010 and a lunar space station by 2015. That's a mind boggling pace. More Americans will be wanting to go to China to learn the "latest stuff" if we don't get our act together, that is, IF they want to even learn? Chinese are diligent students and have an unbeatable persistent desire to strive to be the best. Do WE have that kind of motivation and spirit? How many Americans would rather just sit home on Sundays and watch the football games?
 
valich said:
"Foreign debt is typically repaid by selling domestic assets." That's a first that I've ever heard. You'll have to cite a source on that one for me to believe it.

Actually, I misspoke. I should have said that foreign debt largely *consists* of foreign ownership of domestic assets. See here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_of_payments

That $8 Trillion figure mentioned in your top 10 list is actually the total foreign ownership of US assets (land, stocks, bonds):

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20050...evey-stuart-s-brown/the-overstretch-myth.html

That guy's obviously fairly bullish on the outlook for the US, but the basic facts seem okay to me. Note that the US owns %5.1 Trillion in foreign assets, so the difference is only $3 Trillion.

As far as debt in terms of Treasury Securities, which is what the big Asian central banks purchase, the total is $4 Trillion, about half of which is foreign-owned. It should be mentioned that Japan owns like 4 times as much US debt as China, and as such I think people assign too much influence to China in the US debt issue. Note also that total US assets are around $30 Trillion, so we're not in any danger of running out trying to repay the debt.

Another interesting thing is that many developed nations run debts that are much larger than that of the US, when compared to GDP. Japan, apparently, runs a debt of like %160 GDP. Moreover, GDP size and growth are not the whole story when comparing nations with different levels of development. That is to say, suppose I have $100,000 in savings, while you have only $10,000. Now, suppose that I make $11,000 a year and get a %3.5 raise each year, while you make $7500 a year and get a %9 raise. Even though you will be making a lot more than me after a few years, it will still take many more years for your total worth to catch up with mine.
 
valich said:
The trend of Chinese dreaming to come to the United States for further study is now over. It's gone. Kaput. Over. Sure, some still will come, but not like before.

As a graduate student in engineering at a US university, I can assure you that you're wrong about this. It's true that the numbers of Chinese are down from their peak a few years ago, but there are still massive numbers coming here. Roughly one third of the students in my class got their Bachelor's degree in China; this is typical of reputable engineering programs throughout America. And that's without getting into the vast numbers of Indians, Koreans, Europeans, Persians, Latin Americans and Arabs that come to study here...

valich said:
Beijing University is known as Chinese Harvard

Don't you think it says something that they don't call Harvard "American Beijing University" instead? On this ranking of world universities:

http://ed.sjtu.edu.cn/rank/2005/ARWU2005TOP500list.htm

Harvard comes in first, while Peking University ranks in the 200's. There's a whole pile of US universities that outrank it. Even in the Asian region, there are tons of Japanese schools that outrank it. Also, the best Chinese schools are in HK and Taiwan.
 
valich said:
...Source: "Excessive Asian Reserves?," by Christopher Lingle, 14 April 2005.
http://www.suite101.com/print_message.cfm/investing/97747/1083645
Good link, thanks. Next to last paragraph, with some bold added by Billy T:
"Purchases of US securities are part of an unsustainable shell game whereby Asians finance the large external deficit of the US so Americans can buy more Asian exports. The key to this global Ponzi scheme is a flood of liquidity from the US due to "cheap credit" orchestrated by the Fed's monetary pumping. Of course, this orgy is rapidly coming to an end."

His main "thinking flaw" (I think) is the presumption that the foreign reserve assets held by central bank must be invested in financial assets (Like US bonds or the private bonds etc he recommends in recognition of his final assertion above.) This is a strange "mistake" for him to make in that he does recognize that both China and Japan already have more than adequate reserves, and that this is a costly burden for them. (They pay higher interest to their citizens to control inflations by removing from circulation the RMBs the dollars bought (and then spent in China) via issue of domestic bonds than they can earn from US treasury bonds, etc.)

I doubt continued financial investments is the best application for the influx of foreign currency China must cope with. The Chinese agree with me. - They are now buying materials they will need in the future, (Such as the Chinese attempt to buy unoCal's large proven reserves of oil, or the 20 year contract with Brail to import iron ore, paid for partially by providing Brazil funds for new railroads and port facilities to export that ore and the increasingly large soybean (and etc) exports to China, etc. and many other deals, especially in Venezuela and soon in Bolivia, that I do not yet know about.)

This is a really smart move by the Chinese. - It is mainly their increasing demands that has doubled the price of almost all commodities in last two years, oil included, and will double them again in less than three - A "buy now, while cheap" policy. Westerners lack the longer time horizon that the Chinese have, with their 50 year development plan.

I am sure high Chinese officials are now in Iran, discussing the possibility that Iran cease sales of oil to the west, offering Iran loans and more modern versions of the silk-worm missiles, which Iran has had for years, to keep "those infidel Americans" at bay. Also offering to finance the Iran/China pipeline*, technical assistance for the production of nuclear weapons (perhaps even a 10 year immediate loan of a few) that could be placed on southern shore of Qishm Island (and smaller islands) in the Strait of Hormuz to stop all oil ships from passing thru the straits, if the American does act too foolishly.

I don't know if it is technically possible to physically close the straight to the big oil tankers by blasting dirt into the narrow channel, but suspect it may be. I read some where that big tankers can not pass in the strait. Might require a suicide crew (excuse me: “martyrdom crew,” privileged to go straight to heaven) in their small bottom-crawling “tractor-subs” to close the channel. Perhaps part of the deal is already done, and the Chinese bombs are already hidden on the islands, etc. Chinese soldiers would no doubt still have the “arming keys“, if the bombs are there.

I sure hope the CIA is monitoring is see if Chop Suey / Egg Fu Young /etc. orders are already regularly going out to small, Hormuz-Strait, islands. GWB and Connie, with their saber rattling, instead of the more intelligent European approach, are making some Chinese / Iran deal very likely.
___________________________________
*Because China and Iran do not share a common border, China is no doubt helping Taliban et. al. throw the US out of Afghanistan and making similar offers to the various "X-stans" that could serve as pipeline route if the US is able to make a stable friendly Afghanistan.

You were not so foolish as to think the US and European presence in Afghanistan was not "oil based," just because Afghanistan has no oil, were you? :D

PS - Many readers probably know I have been pointing out the advantage of Alcohol as a fuel in several threads, but I have been omitting the most important one. - If renewable alcohol (a "solar fuel") replaced oil (and it surely could - see those other posts) then WW3 is much less likely.
 
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