Chechnya Tee Hee

E

Eluminate

Registered Senior Member
Why do people always look at chechens as victums? What about all those Russians killed , just last month 56 died in train explosion in krasnodarsky kray. Or the 500+ in moscow when the 3 buildings were blown up? Or how about that 110+ which died at the theater complex? all propaganda?

What I think will happen is after Putin gets re-elected he will quietly close all channels of communication in the region and hammer it using his "representative" with his 40k and the russian force of about 90k up till the borders and then make it a marshall law state for a year or two afterwhich it will be an severely policed *armywise* border state.
 
it's easier to identify (for those who don't know a lot about the particular situation) with the weaker, smaller, side.

on one side you have a huge ex-soviet country... a superpower
on the other side you have poor Muslims from a war-torn country, willing to sacrifice their life for a cause.

a typical westerner who watched too many movies and read too many books would naturally side with the weaker side
 
Some backgrounds on Chechnya

http://www.chechnyafree.ru/index.php?lng=eng&section=historyeng&row=2

I think they in many ways resemble the Afghan/Pakistan Pashtun tribes with islam as common denominator.

While I have some doubts about islam, I have no problem accepting the struggle of people for self-determination for what has been historically their own country.

While pre 9-11 the Russians were critisized heavily by the american government for their brutal intervention in Chechnya and while it was envogue for parts of the public to like their struggle for freedom to that of the palestines.

The actions of Bin Laden, 9-11 caused a shockwave leading to many people thinking that ISLAM is inherently problematic and as a whole has declared war (jihad) against the west, hence Russia found itself suddenly sided with the US neoconservatives in what they officially call war against terror.

Also some zionist followers pointed to 9-11 and said: "Now all you symphatisers for the palestines can see and feel for yourself that those muslims and their suicide bombings are nothing but trouble"

Combine that with the problems in Europe with immigrants (or at least perceived as problems) and you can see the western public opinion clearly turning against islam. And this is exactly what Bin Laden wanted, polarisation, in order to mobilise the ordinary muslims that just want to get on with their lives in his stupid jihad.

However The war against terror has become an excuse and a carte blanche for American / Russian / Israeli government to push forward some shady agendas, let's not forget this while we nurture our islamophobia.

Personally , I feel that the basic sharia interpretation of the islam is PERFECTLY suited for the (what we regard medieval) lifestyle of Pashtune like tribes, it has worked for them hundreds of years and continue to do so. However islam is zip compatible with what I regard as a western lifestyle, so western presence (usual by puppetregimes and corporations) and islamic presence in the west (usual immigrants) sooner or later spells disaster.

Immigrants with other religious backgrounds (e.d. Hinduism) proved to be much more able to peacefully co-exist within the Judeo-Christian framework.

Also, me , as a non-religious person can still peacefully co-exist with a reasonable amount of freedom (but this is under scrutiny since damn 9-11!) within this framework, now I would surely loose that kind of freedom if I was to move to Iran or something.

Why ?

I think because Islam has in many respects has not come out of the tribal age , not modernized and is still very much fundie and much more phobic to people with other believes (or infidels).

If we look for example at the French Muslim headscarf debate, while I think that this is a phobic action limiting the freedom of other people, I just wonder how much less freedom non-muslim people would have if sharia law ruled in France.
 
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Hmm... of course we have to look at the situation as objectively as possible, and I haven't really seen that here. The Chechens were invaded in the 1800's by the Russian empire, they suffered greatly under Stalin, and they were forcibly expelled for what Stalin thought was their "co-operation" with the Nazi's, countless Chechens died under the aspecies of Soviet Moscow. They were the scapegoats of the region. They started a war for independence in 1994 with Russia, and it's pretty much been going on since. My question for Eluminate is, after you see the desperate poverty, and utter destruction of their territory, wouldn't just come to expect terrorism? I don't agree with their tactics, but you cannot agree with Russian tactics either.

In early December Moscow-based defense analyst Pavel Felganhauer said that the Russian military's bombardment of Grozny would include "so-called aerosol bombs or vacuum bombs that can penetrate dugouts, bunkers and kill everyone inside of course, including civilians." [Although widely reported, these comments represented a misunderstanding of the effects of fuel-air explosives]. Such fuel-air munitions were reportedly used beginning on 06 December 1999.
Click to expand...

From the Russian side, I can personally understand why they would want Chechnya. Principally for her oil, and to secure safe passage of Caspian oil to Russian ports on the Black Sea. Also Russia recognizes that in order to stay relevant in the Middle East, she needs Chechnya. Also if Russia fails in Chechnya she could face other rebellions in other regions in the country.

grozny_001.jpg


That was Grozny...

grozny-ap.jpg


Both sides are committing massive human rights abuses, but who is going to stop pro-Americana Putin?
 
he basicly wants you to take his side because he is advertising ...
I could post a picture of human heads being sent to their family
memebers by chechen members but that would be degrading.

Also you are ignoring the fact that chechnya is partly Russified.
Furthermore imagine if southern texas was trying to form a country
would you let em ? And there are corelations.

Yes it is very easy to take the side of the smaller victum and say
shame on you... But much harder to realize that both sides have
claims and valid arguments.
 
Undecided said:
Read, you'll find it.
Click to expand...


He can't read didn't you notice by now? Look at his name and look what he has been propagating all over the board. When it comes to anything about any muslims or anti Israel , his reading part of his brain just goes to auto shut off mode.
 
Chechnya is partly Ruissified? How? or rather, what has that to do with the majority of Chechens thinking they would be better off on their own, not as part of Russia?
 
he basicly wants you to take his side because he is advertising ...


I have not taken side, I have tried to be objective as possible. I condemn both sides for the actions they have taken. From utterly flattening a city of 400,000 people into one of less then 30,000 today, just some stats:

1994-96 war- 30,000 civilian dead, 600,000 displaced.
1999- ? war- 370,000 displaced, ??? dead.

Sorry but Russia has done more damage then the Chechens have to Russia.

I could post a picture of human heads being sent to their family
memebers by chechen members but that would be degrading.


Are they military? If so I can tell of Russian military abuses done to Chechen's. Yes it is degrading not denying that, but the magnitude is simply on Russia's side.

Also you are ignoring the fact that chechnya is partly Russified.


By this you mean what exactly? As in demographics, or by military control? One thing is for sure, most of the population of Chechnya is Russian, if we use that logic then Russia should be invading Kazakhstan as well. If the majority of the population wants independence they should have a chance to vote for it, and get it.

Furthermore imagine if southern texas was trying to form a country
would you let em ?

There simply is no comparison btwn the two, Southern Texas is considered American, they consider themselves as American. Also I believe if they really wanted to get independence I think the US would follow Canada's lead and have a referendum, there are peaceful, humane ways to do this.

Yes it is very easy to take the side of the smaller victum and say
shame on you... But much harder to realize that both sides have
claims and valid arguments.

And I have presented Russia's arguments as well, but when your mindset is prejudice against a post. You seem to miss it don't ya!
 
not all are military hostages are taken like in columbia I remember 7 journalists from western networks went to interview and their heads got sent back when the ransom
wasn't paid in time.

Russified by demographics the northern non-revolting part is settled partly by cossacks.

There is a good comparison with southern texas. Most of the insurgents in chechnya aren't chechen.... They are come from other countries such as iran,iraq,afghanistan, and others... They have arabic written on their flags which chechens cannot read.
Chechens have a chechen language they know russian and chechen but not arabic.
Its as if mexicans were insurging and trying to get independance to a province not of their own make up.
 
Chechens have a chechen language they know russian and chechen but not arabic.
Its as if mexicans were insurging and trying to get independance to a province not of their own make up.

Exactly they aren't Russian, thus why should they be subjected to arbitrary Russian control? The Chechens have obviously voiced their support for independance, even before any foreign fighters came to the region. The country is being stopped from seperating to stop the further disintergration of Russia. Pure geo-politics.
 
This is why u sensed prejudice in my earlier post because you are
promoting something that I dont want to happen. Their independance
is of very little to no importance to me but the stabilization of Russia
and enforcement of territorial coherance is. This problem ergo : chechnya
will be solved but it will be solved how the kremlin wants it not how
the west does. Because in order for kremlin to survive and thrive it must
be solved on its own terms and not wests'. Yes I m a bit prejudice
but thats because western media tries to protray one side the plight
for independance of poor peoples. Its very simple integration and
assimilation of the territory will continue and centralization will occur.
Also the pres of chechnya is a warlord more or less with his own army
of about 40k he is pro kremlin thus was elected. Its not even a majority
of chechens that wants to be independant. They are just caught in
crossfire thats it.
 
Their independance
is of very little to no importance to me but the stabilization of Russia
and enforcement of territorial coherance is.

Which the same thing with different semantics, they don't mean anything different. What the Kremlin wants is Chechnya to be like Tatarstan and other states inside Russia proper. She will not stand further independence, especially in a vital oil rich region, which a major Caspian pipe line passes through. Again this is merely geo-political in nature. If Chechnya successfully separates, what is going to stop Ossetia, or Ingusheita?

chechnya
will be solved but it will be solved how the kremlin wants it not how
the west does.

That is keep Chechnya within Russian borders, Kremlin is dealing with this in one way. The most recent war was started by the Chechens and foreign fighters but it is not a excuse to do the extreme human rights abuses in Chechnya, and that is not making Chechen terrorism acceptable either. But the Kremlin wants it solved, of course. But by keeping the status quo.

Yes I m a bit prejudice
but thats because western media tries to protray one side the plight
for independance of poor peoples.

I never believed that, you don't even hear about Chechnya anymore. The media has a bias, but that is bias is based on emotion not some political ethos.

Its very simple integration and
assimilation of the territory will continue and centralization will occur.


Like in Yugoslavia? Please this "assimilation" was enforced in Russian empire and the USSR and they both failed horribly to stem nationalism, this is no different. History proves that Russia will fail at this.

Also the pres of chechnya is a warlord more or less with his own army
of about 40k he is pro kremlin thus was elected.

How is it thus he was elected? Because he has 40k men under his belt? Was this a free election? If so show me an objective source showing this.

Its not even a majority
of chechens that wants to be independant.

You can, I believe support that with independent numbers? Unless you are omnipotent?
 
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well as I said chechneya got freedon 5 years ago but they attacked Dagistan 1 month there after.
If they stayed nice and quiet lived like normal muslims do (Tadshikistan)
they would be a free country right now, but the fact that Al Kaida and other terrible peices of ( ) are roaming chechniya and probably will turn it into a drug dealing slave tradeing and f'd up place.
:eek:
and when i said FIXED on the other thread I ment made new living quarters.

and russia wont care if chechneya is muslim they neighbour many muslim country's already, chechniya wouldnt matter that much except for the whole unpridictable thing.
 
Also the pres of chechnya is a warlord more or less with his own army
of about 40k he is pro kremlin thus was elected.

How is it thus he was elected? Because he has 40k men under his belt? Was this a free election? If so show me an objective source showing this.

well their president was a money laundurer the money was stolen from russia, to escape claims he ran away to chechniya.
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Furthermore imagine if southern texas was trying to form a country
would you let em ?

There simply is no comparison btwn the two, Southern Texas is considered American, they consider themselves as American. Also I believe if they really wanted to get independence I think the US would follow Canada's lead and have a referendum, there are peaceful, humane ways to do this.

4746.JPG

hahaha ye right.. IF texas wanted independance IF all the population wanted it would it get it?
NO
what makes chechneya so different ITS RUSSIAN TERRITORY from like the 12th century
chechneya is being helped by the same people you are accuseing of killing them.
I forgot the cite i got the pictures from but it has many pictures of the peace efforts going on ing chechneya right now
 
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Chechniya Is none of the wests buissiness and i think as soon as russia leaves america will start draining chechniyas oil wells.
 
Ok this proves my entire point about Russian control of Checnya:

Chechniya Is none of the wests buissiness and i think as soon as russia leaves america will start draining chechniyas oil wells.

This is nothing more then mere selfish, geo-political needs of the Russian Federation, include the curse that is oil. Russians and you don't care about the ppl of the region, nor do you care about the humanitarian issues. The only that you care about is making a good buck on the dead bodies of untold thousands.

hahaha ye right.. IF texas wanted independance IF all the population wanted it would it get it?
NO

I don't see why not? In Canada for instance which is a even more accurate description of the Chechnya situation, you had two referendums on Quebec independence, forcing Ottawa to cede Quebec independence without a shit being fired. Also there was supposed to be a referendum in Chechnya but it never happened, Russia doesn’t want it to happen because Chechnya would be independent today. Understand that Moral realism is not realistic.

what makes chechneya so different ITS RUSSIAN TERRITORY from like the 12th century
chechneya is being helped by the same people you are accuseing of killing them.


I see how it works now, this is a "white man's burden", Chechens did not ask for your assistance. When you help others you don't force them, they ask you for help. Secondly that "help" is Russification of the region which only makes more nationalism. The USSR "helped" Afghanistan in the 80's as well, and the US in Vietnam, do you see where I am going? Those propaganda pictures show the facade of a lie, those pictures could have been shot in Kabul 1982 and you would be saying the same things, apologetics usually do. You have yet to show what right Russia has to rule that land, in comparison to Kazakhstan?

I forgot the cite i got the pictures from but it has many pictures of the peace efforts going on ing chechneya right now

How convenient for you, I know why you forgot, because the website is drowning in Russian sponsored propaganda:

http://www.chechnyafree.ru/index.php?lng=eng


I really love the dichotomy of your logic:

chechneya is being helped by the same people you are accuseing of killing them.

.vs.

Chechniya Is none of the wests buissiness and i think as soon as russia leaves america will start draining chechniyas oil wells

LOL!
 
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