Changing Adults vs. Changing Children?

[Carcano]

When trying to change the atittudes of a co-worker how different is your technique compared to changing the attitudes of a 12 year old son or daughter.

The most popluar perscription for adults is found in Dale Carnegie's famous book..as such:

# Call attention to other people's mistakes indirectly.
# Talk about your own mistakes first.
# Ask questions instead of directly giving orders.
# Start with questions which the other person will answer YES
# Let the other person save face.
# Praise every improvement.
# Give the other person a fine reputation to live up to.
# Encourage them by making their faults seem easy to correct.

 

[wynn]

# Call attention to other people's mistakes indirectly.
# Talk about your own mistakes first.
# Ask questions instead of directly giving orders.
# Start with questions which the other person will answer YES
# Let the other person save face.
# Praise every improvement.
# Give the other person a fine reputation to live up to.
# Encourage them by making their faults seem easy to correct.

How many adults are really comfortable when approached that way?

I find Carnegie's approach to be highly manipulative and patronizing.

 

[Carcano]

I find Carnegie's approach to be highly manipulative and patronizing.

On most of those points I agree...but whats your alternative?

 

[wynn]

Have regular meetings specifically for the purpose of discussing problems and finding solutions.
This way, everyone knows what awaits them, when exactly and for what purpose, and also, everyone can prepare in advance - with clearly specifying what the problem is, what the solution may be, and to mentally prepare oneself to be criticized.

 

[Carcano]

I find Carnegie's approach to be highly manipulative and patronizing.

In Carnegie's view a person's religion was secondary to the primacy of the human EGO....something animals do not have.

Therefore to manipulate people their ego must somehow be used as an ally...at the very least it must be left unscathed.

The trick of course is to do this without making it obvious.

 

[wynn]

In Carnegie's view a person's religion was secondary to the primacy of the human EGO....

It is interesting that you mention this, thank you. It's something I have been wondering about for a while, actually.

Therefore to manipulate people their ego must somehow be used as an ally...at the very least it must be left unscathed.

The trick of course is to do this without making it obvious.

I have had such methods applied to me, but somehow, they produced just the opposite result.

I came away bewildered and with the impression that much of human communication is a charade in which we are supposed to participate, and everyone knows it is a charade, but still we are supposed to do it - and asking about the reason for it or even just mentioning it is strictly tabooed.

I cannot imagine how such methods actually can work on anyone. It seems to me that people simply participate in the charade (out of fear of losing their job, their spouse, ...), merely pretending that it worked on them, while in reality, it is completely different things that actually motivate people than the superficially evident ego-pleasing.

 

[Lori_7]

When trying to change the atittudes of a co-worker how different is your technique compared to changing the attitudes of a 12 year old son or daughter.

The most popluar perscription for adults is found in Dale Carnegie's famous book..as such:

# Call attention to other people's mistakes indirectly.
# Talk about your own mistakes first.
# Ask questions instead of directly giving orders.
# Start with questions which the other person will answer YES
# Let the other person save face.
# Praise every improvement.
# Give the other person a fine reputation to live up to.
# Encourage them by making their faults seem easy to correct.

this actually seems more fitting for a child than an adult imo.

 

[Spud Emperor]

I have had such methods applied to me, but somehow, they produced just the opposite result.

I came away bewildered and with the impression that much of human communication is a charade in which we are supposed to participate, and everyone knows it is a charade, but still we are supposed to do it - and asking about the reason for it or even just mentioning it is strictly tabooed.

I cannot imagine how such methods actually can work on anyone. It seems to me that people simply participate in the charade (out of fear of losing their job, their spouse, ...), merely pretending that it worked on them, while in reality, it is completely different things that actually motivate people than the superficially evident ego-pleasing.

Maybe you're an emotionally evolved and highly intelligent individual and can see through the charade but to suggest that the majority are the same...
come on, if you really are evolved you'd know that this ego pandering, softly,softly approach actually works like a charm.

 

[Carcano]

this actually seems more fitting for a child than an adult imo.

How would you approach adults?

 

[Carcano]

Come on, if you really are evolved you'd know that this ego pandering, softly, softly approach actually works like a charm.

Right, just look at advertising.

Unlike the military, corporate advertising always uses seduction vs. coersion.

The two most potent seductions being physical pleasure and ego gratification.

We have all seen laundry detergent ads where the housewife looks like she just had an orgasm...because she bought brand X.

 

[Lori_7]

How would you approach adults?

i kind of agree with signal's opinion. children are more fragile, and i think a more direct approach with adults might be appropriate.

 

[NMSquirrel]

i would agree with the OP to the extent of the majority, but as signal pointed out..we are not all the same...

and advertising doesn't apply to this discussion as advertising is not a two way conversation..

most of the time i want someone to approach me like the OP, but there are some situations that require a more direct approach..

and yes there is a difference between a boss telling you this stuff and a co-worker.

 

[visceral_instinct]

I'd rather take a more understanding approach with anyone. Child or adult.

 

[birch]

this is assuming that adults are more mature as in those virtues that age somehow brings about. this is the ego-pandering that adults do for eachother because they have the power.

often, children can be more reasonable because they are more honest. with adults, depending on their character and hangups, which is not automatically a result of age or experience, you may have to work around them so to speak. it depends on the situation though.

think about all the things that adults tell children to do and then look at what adults do.

they tell them to not use profanity. that is why adult movies have more profanity because it's so mature, right?

they tell children not to smoke or drink. that's why it's legal for adults to smoke or drink, right? i guess when you get to a certain arbitrary age, it's good for you or it's a mature thing to do.

they tell them to get along with people and play 'nice'. that's why adults start wars, right?

they tell them to be honest. that's why adults lie, cheat, scam, gossip etc, right?

i can keep going on..

adults can be just as immature or more immature than children. most are just not honest enough to admit they've attached virtues to maturity but applied it to just age which is false. what many adults have done is perverted the meaning of maturity to mean one of manipulation or power and that if one is good at either, then they can claim 'maturity' just by the charade of virtue.

 

[Carcano]

I'd rather take a more understanding approach with anyone. Child or adult.

You probably would have liked Carnagie's approach to helping students speak with more confidence when facing an audience.

He found that people naturally projected more confidence when talking about something that made them ANGRY.

So he would train them to speak on neutral subjects with the same angry mood and demeanor.

 

[NMSquirrel]

they tell them to be honest. that's why adults lie, cheat, scam, gossip etc, right?

one word...politician..

 

[visceral_instinct]

I agree with birch.

Adults are often emotionally and behaviourally not adults. But they get credit for being adults none the less.

It makes me fucking sick.

Even the most badly behaved, unreasonable, hypocritical 30 year old is listened to and the crap that leaves their mouth is given weight...while even when little 20 year old me has a valid point that is carefully reasoned, all they have to do is roll their eyes and go 'You're 20, what do you know?' and that's me shot down.

And people wonder why I'm such a volatile bitch.

 

[Lori_7]

I agree with birch.

Adults are often emotionally and behaviourally not adults. But they get credit for being adults none the less.

It makes me fucking sick.

Even the most badly behaved, unreasonable, hypocritical 30 year old is listened to and the crap that leaves their mouth is given weight...while even when little 20 year old me has a valid point that is carefully reasoned, all they have to do is roll their eyes and go 'You're 20, what do you know?' and that's me shot down.

And people wonder why I'm such a volatile bitch.

vi, there is ALWAYS going to be a reason for you to be a volatile bitch. i think you know that. i know that about myself. :shrug: you just have to decide if that's really what you want to be. and if it is, then that's ok.

and i'm not doubting that you experience this prejudice, but i haven't. quite the opposite actually. i was the first person in my family to graduate from college. i was surrounded by adults that respected and admired my intelligence, and were very interested in what i was learning and how. and do you know, that i actually made it through high school, and could have made it through college without ever using a computer?!?! nowadays they're using them in kindergarten classrooms. it's the young people who are on the cutting edge. it's the young people who are still in school. it's the young people who are adventurous and still eager to learn. i'm generalizing here, but generally, once you get past 30, you're stuck in the 9 to 5, and your brain is turning to mush.

 

[wynn]

I agree with birch.

Adults are often emotionally and behaviourally not adults. But they get credit for being adults none the less.

It makes me fucking sick.

Even the most badly behaved, unreasonable, hypocritical 30 year old is listened to and the crap that leaves their mouth is given weight...while even when little 20 year old me has a valid point that is carefully reasoned, all they have to do is roll their eyes and go 'You're 20, what do you know?' and that's me shot down.

And people wonder why I'm such a volatile bitch.

Actually, since we're talking like that, I'll tell you something:
I think you project a victim mentality, you have a self-victimizing attitude, which then turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy.
You seem to expect to be told you are wrong, and you get angry and frustrated already in advance - which only makes things worse.

I think you need to be more careful about whom you talk to about what.

There are people who are bound to dismiss you, based on your age, for example, but you seem to like to get involved with precisely such types.

On the other hand, there are people who appreciate well-reasoned arguments. So why not focus on have this type of exchanges with this type of people?

 

[wynn]

and i'm not doubting that you experience this prejudice, but i haven't.

I have been met with this prejudice sometimes, and many times not.

I would say what really makes the difference is what prejudice one is susceptible to. There are prejudices I am susceptible to, and others that I laugh off with ease. As such this is my issue, not other people's.